The 2006-2008 Tier list

[InfernoOmni]

i like how no one pays to attention to the fact that the tier list is based on tournament rankings only. opinions or even facts on certain match-ups is another topic all together

[Sinz]

You know what we should make since everyone ignores that Omni, is a one handed Tier list.

[Oskurito]

So... is it really going to be another tier list or what? because if it isn't gonna be.. all this discussion is pointless

[T0MMY]

Didn't you place higher than any of the five kirby players at OC3? Wouldn't that suggest otherwise?
I did a lot better than the Kirby players, but I'm smart enough not to go all Pichu in a tournament I want to do fairly well with. Everyone knows me as a Pichu player, but I used to just ditto everyone with their own character and now just play whichever character I'm in the mood for. I wore tabi boots so I played more Sheik at OC3. But I was still reppin' Pichu in the tourney as well.
Don't be so quick to say Pichu is better because I can beat every Kirby player out there with him, it just means I know the Pichu/Kirby matchup better than any other matchup and I, myself, am a good player. I have beaten good Fox players as well, that doesn't mean Pichu is top of Top Tier (he's Top Tier for many other reasons, haha)


And KKK > T!mmy > KK90 imo, though I'd need to see some good tourney footage of T!mmy. (not sure of the exact placings of KKK, T!mmy, Gimpy etc. on every tourney they attend).

I provided a link that showed tournament standings. t!mmy placed higher than KK Kid at OC3 and I had no problem handling him with Pichu.

Do not underestimate Nashun as a Kirby player either, he probably did better than KK Kid.

Also, I am fairly certain KK Kid went all Kirby at OC3, but I'm not sure Nashun did (didn't watch his matches) and t!mmy played Fox once because it is his warm-up character and the first match of the first pools of the first day of singles right when he woke up (needless to say he didn't do too well as he was half-asleep) then went all Kirby afterward that match.

[Binx]

I think Marth has the advantage on DL, FD and its more of less even on the other stages, although YS seems to be better for fox IMO, one grab there can be death, not always of course but in only takes 3 uairs and its hard to fsmash for edgeguard there cause of the slant. You can say no match is even but I think it largely depends on patients, and mindgames, fox is just so retardedly fast and has such great combos vs Marth at any percent that it seems more or less even, on FD or Pokestadium a grab pretty much means Fox dies but he is by far the hardest character for me to grab.

[NeighborhoodP]

Nate almost certainly used Kirby through the whole tourny cause that's all he ever uses. I always try to get him to switch characters :(

[kenny10]

You guys know there is an entire thread on stages that show how good or bad it is for Fox against basically every other character.

[Brookman]

Nice, insult my intellegence.

That's the easy way out.

The easy way out would just be to let you post everything you think, because you can't even spell properly when trying to defend your INTELLIGENCE, So please, continue posting. Oh wait, you can't post anymore because you got banned for being an ignorant prick.

[Micheloxx]

don fight guys xD, umm, can u tell me what IMO is? plzplz..
About what u say binx, u think that, i dont know, remember thats a pretty small world and Marth sword has like 20 meters long..

[DynamicDuo]

yea umm i didn't read 200 pages so can someone update me.

[Miharu]

Fox has a slight advantage over Marth.

It's easier for Fox to get hits/grabs in, but he doesn't have as many guaranteed hits off one grab, so the kill isn't guaranteed even after the grab is pulled off. Usually, you can only get an uair off a uthrow, only one more aerial/grab after nair -> shine, and so on. Fox on average will probably get off around 30% of damage per set of hits.

Marth, on the other hand, has a much harder time getting the this in, but once he does, Fox will take at least about 50~70% if the Marth knows what he's doing (assuming that we're starting from zero/low percentage). Chainthrow at early percentages is pretty much inscapable, and at around 26%, where Fox has the option to jump, shine, or simply DI out of CG, Marth has 3 options to counter that. If Fox DIs towards either side, a simple regrab will suffice, since there will be no time to shine/jump out of the grab. If Fox chooses to not DI or DI up in an attempt to shine/jump out of the CG, Marth can simply utilt. From the utilt, again depending on DI, Marth can either regrab, or continue chaining more utilts. At around 70% or so, Marth again has a couple of options: end it with a tipper and proceed to edgeguard, or start chaining uairs. Either works fine. The uair chains will eventually end with either a fsmash (if it's on a platformed stage like DL or BF), or a bair/nair. All result in edgeguarding, where Marth has a wealth of options (dtilt, fsmash, bair, counter, or jab, just to name a few).

It looks to be tilted in Marth's favor at this point, doesn't it? However, the Fox can make it extremely hard for Marth to even get a hit in; due to his faster running speed and falling speed, it's relatively simple to just run away and laser camp all day, and force Marth into a situation where he will get grabbed. Say Marth does a SHFFLd nair, and runs back right after. Normally, if you just attempt to JC grab with Fox, Marth will just DD back, then grab you out of your lag. However, if timed correctly, Fox's dash attack grab will be able to catch Marth in this instance (it's also useful on Falcons that like to nair then retreat). Fox's lasers also rack up damage rather quickly.

Fox is also more fluid on platforms, even though Marth can just utilt/fsmash through the bottom of a platform, that's about it, aside from an aerial to wake them up. However, it's quite simple for Fox to just dair -> grab anybody on a platform, and the resulting grab will lead to a uthrow -> uair.

Also, Fox's combos are relatively simple to pull off (uair to uthrow, for example), whereas Marth's CGs and juggling game require exact precision; if the Marth screws up just even once, it will most likely result in his eating at least an aerial, or grab combo.

As it stands, I believe that this matchup is extremely close, about 53 to 47, in Fox's favor. It's just that much easier for Fox to pull of his combos, since there's more room for error, and a larger window of opportunity for him to pull off said combos, than when compared to a Marth. In this matchup, it's necessary for Marth players to play in a near-perfect fashion, since one small error could lead to their loss of the match.

In short, Fox players just have a much larger margin for error than Marth players do.

[Brookman]

Hydro kirby, I think you mean that marth has an infinitely larger margin for error than fox players.

It's impossible to discuss the match-up based of of our individual experiences because we all suck at this game. Unless you are mew2king than your opinion on the matter of marth vs. fox doesn't really matter. The reason m2k can have a different opinion on the matter is because he plays marth in tournaments vs. PC and whoever, and they are improving fox's game as m2k has improved marth's. The question is though, is it just going to end up being a big cycle where older tactics are brought back to combat the more recent tactics in a perpetually mindless circle?

[Banks]

ice climbers should be wobble-tier

[Aesir]

M2k just says that because he plays marth. Im sorry to say this but your wrong. Marth players all claim that the matchup is even because they dont want to people to think that they beat fox's because they have an advantage. If he really believed that and fox had no counters he would play fox because he would want the best chance of winning. Or he uses Marth because its an easier character then fox, I think even he said so. <_<



If pros really thought that marth vs fox was even and they all say that at their level that shiek vs marth is basically even too then why even use shiek in the first place? How on earth could m2k say that shiek is the best character in the game if he has a minimum of 2 counters whereas fox would have 0.
Sheik has no counters just some difficult match ups. Sheik no matter how hard a marth tries Sheik will always have the advantage her tilts combo him so well not to mention she doesn't have a hard time edge guarding him. The marth vs sheik match-up is all mental.

So in reality, marth vs fox is even, but Sheik Vs marth is in sheiks favor even if the advantage is slight.


If these people used just fox they would say that marth is the best, if they used marth they would say shiek is the best, and if they used shiek they would say fox is the best. In a game as complicated as smash there is no possibility for an even matchup. Someone however small must have an advantage and if someone were to tell me that advantage went to fox in this matchup I would immediately stop speaking to them.
>_> lol

First off those three characters all rape each other. The fact is Sheik is the best character in the game with human reflexes. Meaning at a human level she is the best. However when you delve into max potential Fox greatly over shadows them all.

There are some levels in which the matchup is close to even but on some levels like FD marth has an advantage that is undeniable. One mistake against marth can result in the loss of stock and unless the marth is stupid enough to get shine spiked somehow the reverse isnt true. Dont give me this bull**** about me just not knowing the matchup well enough or whatever you marths can pull out of your *** to prove me wrong. I know it, I play and study the game just as much as you do, im as smart or smarter than you, stop this conversation. I would love for just one marth to come in and tell me at the very least that there is a slight advantage to marth. Sorry but the matchup isnt even. End of story.
Its hardly even, on FD marth has the advantage there, but you're over looking stages Fox has the advantage on marth. You can deny it all you want but it doesn't make it right, You're a good player and all but I think you lack the experience that m2k has chalked up over the years. you can claim you know a lot but to say m2k is wrong about a match up he knows the most about is just dumb to say the least. >_>

[Brookman]

shut the **** up.

Everyone, seriously. Just stop posting about match ups. Stop posting about the game.


Just shut the **** up and go play.

P.S. I don't care who you think you are, shut up.



shut up.

[mood4food77]

brookman...take a deep breath, and relax

[Brookman]

shut the **** up

just kidding *****. don't be so stupid.

but seriously, stop posting.

[mood4food77]

wow brookman, no need to be all pissed

i was just saying...relax man

[_Phloat_]

People say that if you were perfect, you would play as fox...


I think that if you were perfect you would play as marth, anything that got in your range would get hit, and you have the best range..

Projectiles, you could powershield them all if you were "perfect"

But who cares, no one is perfect, the list is based off of human players >_<

[mood4food77]

that was the main problem i had with this tier list

that it was incredibly biased towards player skill

[Cort]

If you were perfect you'd power shield into an infinite combo with Fox every single time someone tried to approach you with an attack.

That'd be so wonderful.

[Eci4]

If you were perfect you'd power shield into an infinite combo with Fox every single time someone tried to approach you with an attack.

That'd be so wonderful.

You mean you don't do this?

[Cort]

I only combo 0-300 and not 0-death.

[56k]

You play Ice Climbers too? Cool :colorful:

[peachori]

shut the **** up


yeah, thats what i would do if i had no army.
or maybe sell some medicine.

[Brookman]

wow brookman, no need to be all pissed

i was just saying...relax man

I wasn't pissed off, I was just messing around, but none of you actually know me so I guess you wouldn't understand that level of humor?

People say that if you were perfect, you would play as fox...


I think that if you were perfect you would play as marth, anything that got in your range would get hit, and you have the best range..

Projectiles, you could powershield them all if you were "perfect"

But who cares, no one is perfect, the list is based off of human players >_<

if you could play perfectly in all aspects you would play fox. It would be stupid not to.

that was the main problem i had with this tier list

that it was incredibly biased towards player skill

DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU JUST SAID?!

If you were perfect you'd power shield into an infinite combo with Fox every single time someone tried to approach you with an attack.

That'd be so wonderful.

We already talked about this.

You mean you don't do this?

more impressive than that.

I only combo 0-300 and not 0-death.

cheese magic

You play Ice Climbers too? Cool :colorful:

this made me lol :lick:

yeah, thats what i would do if i had no army.
or maybe sell some medicine.

That's what I would say if I thought I was smart or insightful.

[mood4food77]

brookman

i can't tell sarcasm during through a computer screen

and yes i know what i just said, the tier list isn't supposed to be based on human skill with each character, it's supposed to be based on a characters metagame and their match-ups along the way

[Brookman]

Metagame is defined by human players silly.

[mood4food77]

i know

but it was just based on tournament placement, as foxes and falcos were placing higher in tournament than the rest

the one before this was based on how easily a cahracter can make it through a tournament

i mean...i still don't see the reason why the marios and jiggs are above ganon...never made sense, but i guess cause doc and mario do better against fox, falco, and sheik while ganon does better against everyoen else....

[Brookman]

now you're insulting the people who made the list because sheik, and now fox and falco are on top?

anyway, I've concluded you actually don't know anything, and have difficulty braining.

can you at least admit you don't actually know what metagame is?

[Cort]

Falcon is the best character in this game

Scientifically proven by this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=KpAESH_2YOw

[Stop.Haxxoring.Me]

I don't see why the big fuss.
It (the list) is simply statistical. It doesn't mean it represents all players. Like, your main may be low-tier but your overall skill is the actual factor.
I swear, the 2008 list will need a disclaimer or something.

[Brookman]

The tier list says that PC chris will do best with fox, then falco, then sheik, then marth, etc. Sure, you may be a pretty good player, but you use game and watch, that's your choice. You might suck and play as fox and lose to said gw player. I don't see why anyone would not understand that, aside from being mentally retarded in some way.

When overall skill is too even, that is when character selection determines who will come out top. To use the example from above, said gw player is a good player, mentally. Bob, a fox player, is just as smart. Bob four stocks gw. The end.

[Aesir]

Brookmans humor is the best.......

I agree with brookmang too on everything.

[56k]

When overall skill is too even, that is when character selection determines who will come out top. To use the example from above, said gw player is a good player, mentally. Bob, a fox player, is just as smart. Bob gets four stocked by gw. The end.

Fuxed Fixed.

[Cort]

This is where people's bias in any "favorite character" or "main" makes the tier list want to explode. It's constantly torn at and poked by people that are insulted by the be all end all aspect of the tier list and want their cute little mains to be higher cause they beat all the kids on their block with said character.

..and stuff.

[56k]

I was just messing around...I already know that G&W's garbage.

[Cort]

It's true though.

[56k]

Yeah it is. Especially the "the be all end all aspect of the tier list" that really gets into people's heads.

[brawlpro]

ic's take sweat, blood, and tears to master, i've seen one amazing ic player(we all know who), they should be lower in the list...