New way/s to rest Peach and other weird wild stuff (with video)

[Magus420]

I came up with a neat way to rest (among other things) a Peach directly out of a D-Smash recently, as well as some other nice counteroffensive tricks against her. You might already know about how you can CC her D-Smash at low damage and try to time a rest (in the 2 frames between each hit and eat LOTS of damage if you don't pull it off), but this method is far safer and works when you are unable to crouch as well.

For the D-Smash, what you do is hold up on the control stick and down on the c-stick, and do a standing tech on the first hit. The invincibility you get from the tech will protect you just long enough from the remaining hits and place you next to Peach during the lag of the D-Smash.

Fully charged, it can work from 0-25 or so without CCing (your damage). After that you generally end up a bit too far to jump directly into or U-Tilt (Peach can ASDI this down at combo percents if they know what you're trying to do however) to a rest, but you'll at least be able to get a grab (the easiest thing to land since you don't have to worry about being to slow and having them shield) or farther than that get a dash attack off before they can shield. Uncharged, it works until around 40, though when you're close to having no damage it won't hit hard enough to let you tech the first hit and you'll tech the second which will only let you get a grab if anything at all afterwards.

The best times to make use of it that I've thought of so far are while asleep after using rest and when they float cancel an aerial and hit your shield. I think the 2nd use could have a lot of potential to it. If practiced and used right, it would seem that the technique could make float canceling attacks when Jiggs is on the ground a lot more dangerous in the matchup. If you shield the FCed aerial, then go to JC out of shield while clicking those buttons to tech the d-smash like that, Jiggs can duck a follow up grab, shield or duck a 1st jab, duck the 2nd jab if the 1st one hits the shield, and tech the d-smash all at the same time thanks to Puff's jump animation. Jiggs ducks immediately after dropping your shield to start the jumping animation from frames 1-5, which is just the right timing to deal with all of her follow up attacks (unless I'm forgetting something), or risk being left open for a shieldgrab. Any of which can equal getting rested during their lag if you are under 40-45 or so.

What I do is if they hit my shield, I'll continue holding R/L (DON'T click it in when going to shield or you will lose your tech if they happen to D-Smash), then once the shield stun ends quickly flick up on the C-Stick while clicking R/L down the rest of the way for the tech in case you need it, and immediately after move and hold up on the control and down on the C-Stick. Those 4 things all should be done before you leave the ground. It's not exactly easy either. If done right though you will simply shorthop out of your shield. You shouldn't sidestep, airdodge, double jump, full jump, D-Air, etc. Only hold down on the C for less than half of a second so that if they D-Smash and you mess up the tech you will only get hit once since you are holding up.

Well anyway, I made a vid that shows what teching the first hit of her D-Smash to counterattack looks like. It's in 60 fps so you can see exactly what happens a little better.

\/\/
http://files.filefront.com/Its_A_Trap_Peachs_D_Smashsavi/;5468734;;/fileinfo.html
^^

I highly recommend you download it as opposed to streaming, as it's tough to make out after they dumbed it down. If you must, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyFHECf0dnI) is the youtube link.

I'll put it up on filefront as well once I get the chance.

Related to this, with characters that have fast sidesteps you can CC the first hit while holding down on the c-stick then hit and hold R/L after the first hit connects to buffer a sidestep between the hits and then counterattack within 11 frames. The more useful examples I can think of with this are Fox who can do an U-Smash or grab to U-Throw U-Air, Pikachu can U-Smash, and Luigi can Up-B. Obviously you wouldn't really be doing this version offensively, but rather defensively at the times you would otherwise be forced to shield the D-Smash if they were to use it.

So, what do you guys think? :lick:

[ChozenOne]

I came up with a neat way to rest (among other things) a Peach directly out of a D-Smash recently, as well as some other nice counteroffensive tricks against her. You might already know about how you can CC her D-Smash at low damage and try to time a rest (in the 2 frames between each hit and eat LOTS of damage if you don't pull it off), but this method is far safer and works when you are unable to crouch as well.

For the D-Smash, what you do is hold up on the control stick and down on the c-stick, and do a standing tech on the first hit. The invincibility you get from the tech will protect you just long enough from the remaining hits and place you next to Peach during the lag of the D-Smash.

Fully charged, it can work from 0-25 or so without CCing (your damage). After that you generally end up a bit too far to jump directly into or U-Tilt (Peach can ASDI this down at combo percents if they know what you're trying to do however) to a rest, but you'll at least be able to get a grab (the easiest thing to land since you don't have to worry about being to slow and having them shield) or farther than that get a dash attack off before they can shield. Uncharged, it works until around 40, though when you're close to having no damage it won't hit hard enough to let you tech the first hit and you'll tech the second which will only let you get a grab if anything at all afterwards.

The best times to make use of it that I've thought of so far are while asleep after using rest and when they float cancel an aerial and hit your shield. I think the 2nd use could have a lot of potential to it. If practiced and used right, it would seem that the technique could make float canceling attacks when Jiggs is on the ground a lot more dangerous in the matchup. If you shield the FCed aerial, then go to JC out of shield while clicking those buttons to tech the d-smash like that, Jiggs can duck a follow up grab, shield or duck a 1st jab, duck the 2nd jab if the 1st one hits the shield, and tech the d-smash all at the same time thanks to Puff's jump animation. Jiggs ducks immediately after dropping your shield to start the jumping animation from frames 1-5, which is just the right timing to deal with all of her follow up attacks (unless I'm forgetting something), or risk being left open for a shieldgrab. Any of which can equal getting rested during their lag if you are under 40-45 or so.

What I do is if they hit my shield, I'll continue holding R/L (DON'T click it in when going to shield or you will lose your tech if they happen to D-Smash), then once the shield stun ends quickly flick up on the C-Stick while clicking R/L down the rest of the way for the tech in case you need it, and immediately after move and hold up on the control and down on the C-Stick. Those 4 things all should be done before you leave the ground. It's not exactly easy either. If done right though you will simply shorthop out of your shield. You shouldn't sidestep, airdodge, double jump, full jump, D-Air, etc. Only hold down on the C for less than half of a second so that if they D-Smash and you mess up the tech you will only get hit once since you are holding up.

Well anyway, I made a vid that shows what teching the first hit of her D-Smash to counterattack looks like. It's in 60 fps so you can see exactly what happens a little better.

http://rapidshare.de/files/31761111/It_s_A_Trap__Peach_vs_Jiggs_Magus_.avi.html

Related to this, with characters that have fast sidesteps you can CC the first hit while holding down on the c-stick then hit and hold R/L after the first hit connects to buffer a sidestep between the hits and then counterattack within 10 frames. The more useful examples I can think of with this are Fox who can do an U-Smash or grab to U-Throw U-Air, Pikachu can U-Smash, and Luigi can Up-B. Obviously you wouldn't really be doing this version offensively, but rather defensively at the times you would otherwise be forced to shield the D-Smash if they were to use it.

So, what do you guys think? :lick:
I'm not gonna lie... this is mad sexy. Peach is gay and this make her alittle less gay. Can you post the vid up on Youtube though... my CPU fails at downloading stuff >_<

Good Day Sir.

[Magus420]

Argh, but the vid is the sexiest part, and youtube is going to butcher the insane video quality I recorded it in T_T

I'll load it up though, but if people can they should definitely download it if possible instead. I'll get it up on filefront too once their uploading service is back up from maintenence.

[ChozenOne]

Argh, but the vid is the sexiest part, and youtube is going to butcher the insane video quality I recorded it in T_T

I'll load it up though, but if people can they should definitely download it if possible instead. I'll get it up on filefront too once their uploading service is back up from maintenence.
TY ^_^ .

[Magus420]

Oi, I added the youtube link. It's tough to see what happens in it though... :urg:

Still waiting on filefront

[ChozenOne]

Holy f**k!! Does that actually work in Matches??

.. Nice touches with slippy, and StarWars man <(^_^)b

[Magus420]

As long as you're good at it and know the timing it'll work in matches. Setting it up out of your shield takes quite a lot of technical skill though considering it's jigglypuff.

[ChozenOne]

Setting it up out of your shield takes quite a lot of technical skill though considering it's jigglypuff.
Magus FTW ;)

[MegaKnight]

holy cow thats amazing. that oughta teach those darn downsmash spammers, i'll certainly incorporate this into my game.

[KishPrime]

What the? I'm really confused about DI. What the heck did you do? I'd like to know just so I can maybe survive things after I rest.

[ChozenOne]

You "double sticked" correct??

[Raves]

holy crap.. this is godly in every way. magus is my hero!

[Magus420]

In this case I hold up on the control stick and down on the c-stick and tech. Down on the c-stick is to ASDI straight to the ground so you can hit it and tech directly out of the hit. Up is to alter the direction of the knockback to give you the slowest horizontal speed while still allowing the ASDI to cover the extra vertical height on the first frame as well as do a standing tech as opposed to a techroll. Anything past about 22.5 degrees from vertical on the control will make you techroll which lasts way too long compared to a regular standing tech. Technically you can DI one way then as you tech change the direction to get the one you want, but the timing is incredibly difficult. Getting the least amount of horizontal knockback for this is important since regular standing techs aren't good at stopping momentum so just DIing down and teching will make you go a lot farther and you won't have time to counterattack.

At high damage though, if you wanted to tech to survive the D-Smash you'd hold down-toward on the control stick (perpendicular to the knockback downwards) and down on the c-stick (perpendicular to the slope of the floor downwards). The lower the knockback, the higher damage you can tech things. Fox's u-smash for instance usually isn't something you can tech off the floor to survive against, unless it's a steep slope such as the fin on corneria (I think it works against a fully charged u-smash until 90-100 or so IIRC) or possibly the Yoshi's Island stage with the pipes. With this in mind, some characters have a very hard time killing you after a rest. Poor peach is forced to use U-Air to kill you or hope for a pan save for a slope/platform to sweetspot an U-Smash, heh.

There's a video of me ground teching a lot of character's attacks they'd use while you're asleep on flat ground that I made a long time ago that I put up on youtube. I explain double sticking pretty well there. I also just recently came up with a new trick to improve on it which takes care of the slipping off the stage problem when teching VERY powerful knockbacks, and made an example of it where I ground tech a falcon punch with 321% (that's not a typo) on DK64 after a rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei-iOIN32i4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFxdYCr5yAI

[ZoSo]

Bravo. That's some cool **** you've got there.

"Related to this, with characters that have fast sidesteps you can CC the first hit while holding down on the c-stick then hit and hold R/L after the first hit connects to buffer a sidestep between the hits and then counterattack within 10 frames. The more useful examples I can think of with this are Fox who can do an U-Smash or grab to U-Throw U-Air, Pikachu can U-Smash, and Luigi can Up-B. Obviously you wouldn't really be doing this version offensively, but rather defensively at the times you would otherwise be forced to shield the D-Smash if they were to use it."

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Do you CC the first hit then avoid the rest of the hits with your standing dodge?

[Magus420]

Yep, you got it.

To get specific:

Doc, Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Falco, Fox, Kirby, Samus, Sheik, Link, Y Link, Pichu, and Pikachu all can CC then sidestep to get an 11 frame advantage over Peach afterwards. Also, I accidently counted the frame that you can act after sidestepping instead of the duration when I compared it to the D-Smash and came up with that 10 figure before. 11 is actually the correct number.

Peach, ICs, Ness, Jigglypuff, Roy, and Marth would get 6 frames to counterattack by CC sidetepping.

A few characters can actually sidestep the whole duration of it, but the timing is either too exact or gives you sh!tty options of attack before Peach can jab, shield or sidestep to justify trying it.

-Mewtwo can sidestep it, but it doesn't matter because you can't do anything anyway.
-Bowser can barely Up-B
-DK can... Up-B
-Falcon & Zelda's invincibility is the exact duration of the hits of the D-Smash. Don't even bother.
-Ganon has a whole 1 extra frame than the above 2. Awesome... >.>

[doyoung2win]

RAPIDSHARE SUCKS, STUPID TIMER AND THEN ONCE I PUT IN THE LETTERS IT DENIES ME

anyway, im dling the vid, il comment later. and i still cant get down the momentum stalling, you gotta show me in person sometime

[Magus420]

Filefront is still being gimp and aren't taking uploads =/

I hate it when rapidshare gives you letters and numbers that are either illegible or ambiguous >_<

Was it not working because someone esle was downloading it at the same time? Maybe I should get a 2nd copy on there since filefront isn't working.

Have you tried doing it at lower damage for the stall? I think it gives you more time for it so you can get a better general idea and go from there.

[ZoSo]

Yep, you got it.

To get specific:

Doc, Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Falco, Fox, Kirby, Samus, Sheik, Link, Y Link, Pichu, and Pikachu all can CC then sidestep to get an 11 frame advantage over Peach afterwards. Also, I accidently counted the frame that you can act after sidestepping instead of the duration when I compared it to the D-Smash and came up with that 10 figure before. 11 is actually the correct number.

Peach, ICs, Ness, Jigglypuff, Roy, and Marth would get 6 frames to counterattack by CC sidetepping.

A few characters can actually sidestep the whole duration of it, but the timing is either too exact or gives you sh!tty options of attack before Peach can jab, shield or sidestep to justify trying it.

-Mewtwo can sidestep it, but it doesn't matter because you can't do anything anyway.
-Bowser can barely Up-B
-DK can... Up-B
-Falcon & Zelda's invincibility is the exact duration of the hits of the D-Smash. Don't even bother.
-Ganon has a whole 1 extra frame than the above 2. Awesome... >.>
You should make a video of some of this ****.

[Cort]

I'm still really confused on how exactly to double stick tech... But granted I don't have a cube to try and test it right now.

Good stuff, though.

[KishPrime]

This is seriously sick stuff. Can't wait to start practicing it tomorrow. I've never had this DI explained to me. I'd like to know how it can be used in the air as well.

[doyoung2win]

kish as well as many other jiggs learning from magus. good stuff.

thank you magus

[KishPrime]

erm...Squared said he tried it and couldn't get it to work as stated. You are supposed to hold the c-stick down and the control stick up? And tech before/after the hitlag? <_<

[nookrulz]

Thank god I already try to refrain from dsmashing vs. jiggs.

[Tipo mastr]

LOLOLOLOL I didnt know magus was a /b/tard >_>

[Magus420]

As far as in the air goes you can use it to help escape combos a little better. For surviving stuff, you could DI the hit the way you normally would then hold on the c-stick in the opposite direction of the side you would be likely be dying off of though it would only help by 1-3% at most. One of the best uses in the air I've found though is for escaping Fox's U-Air out of a throw, by holding up on the c-stick and wiggling the control stick VERY quickly left to right (I do this by putting it between my thumb and index finger). This will get you out after the first hit most of the time if you do it fast enough and get the smash DI off to a side while ASDIing it upwards.

You can't tech during hitlag, so you have to hit it beforehand. Since the hitlag can be up to 8 frames from what I've seen that means you have something like ~11-15 frames before you get hit to do the tech. Also, if it's uncharged and you're at less than like 10 damage you can't tech the first hit.

Something I should've taken into more consideration before with jumping into a rest afterwards is turnaround frames. If you end up behind them afterwards it's nearly impossible to pull off in time before they can shield. The fastest way to rest up close like this is by dashing for one frame then jumping and resting on the 1st air frame. By turning around to dash it takes too long from the other side. By doing the quick dash jump, it begins to overlap you with her during the jumping animation so you can rest as soon as you're in the air, as opposed to jumping then moving overtop which also takes too long. Another thing to remember is that it's easier to rest/hit Peach when she's facing you after you tech because of how she stands up. Timing your attacks after the tech is actually the hardest part if you ask me. The tech animation makes it seem like you can attack before you actually can and if you're off by just a little bit they can shield in time. You're basically guaranteed a free grab from either side though at least if the timing is too difficult to get down.

[KishPrime]

Why even turn around? Really, why even utilt? Just hop-rest it.

So just to make sure I understand this right, while you are sitting there sleeping you just have to hold the control stick up (done to prevent getting stuck in Peach's downsmash) and the c-stick down (to get close enough to the ground to tech). Is this right? And then all that stuff about actually teching it I understand, you pretty much have to tech before you get hit.

[Magus420]

Holding up on the control stick is primarily used to keep you from sliding too far during the tech. Though it helps a bit, it won't keep you from getting sucked in at low damage if you miss the tech and continue to hold the c-stick down. You should let go of it right after the first hit just in case.

Dash jumping into rest is actually slightly faster than hopping from a standstill into rest, unless you are nearly ontop of her. I'm gonna try testing out what the fastest ways of connecting a rest are depending on which directions they are facing and how far apart you are as well as when it can't work. Also, you can actually land a rest by either walking very slightly or not at all if you end up face to face. I can't always get it to connect though, so I want to try and figure out when it does work since it could be a lot easier than trying to jump into it. It seems like you hit her arm that she sticks out when leaning foward at the end of her last spin. Speaking of which, I find it a lot easier to time when you can begin moving after the tech by looking at her. Right around the time she extends both of her arms before going to stand up is when the tech ends.

[KishPrime]

Well walking doesn't intersect your bodies unless they have a foot sticking out in front. Just one of those weird geometry things.

I got it a couple times, but it's either harder than I thought or I'm just not doing it right still.

Do you always use control stick up, or just for Peach?

[MegaKnight]

Well this works amazingly well. I just came from a smash party, and i survived well into the 200's almost every life. Once they realized it wasn't a random occurance, grabbing became VERY popular. Thanks to Magus for this awesome new technique, which i will continue to use to survive fox's upsmash at 150%. Good times.

[Magus420]

Well walking doesn't intersect your bodies unless they have a foot sticking out in front. Just one of those weird geometry things.

I got it a couple times, but it's either harder than I thought or I'm just not doing it right still.

Do you always use control stick up, or just for Peach?Peach sticks her arm and leg out in front of her at the end of the d-smash, so it's possible to rest her without jumping. Holding up is only for this particular instance. If you want to survive at high damage you hold perpendicular to the knockback downward along with the c-stick down while you tech. For most attacks it'll be down and away, like Marth's f-smash. It's basically the opposite direction you'd want to DI the hits normally, like up and towards the stage.

Well this works amazingly well. I just came from a smash party, and i survived well into the 200's almost every life. Once they realized it wasn't a random occurance, grabbing became VERY popular. Thanks to Magus for this awesome new technique, which i will continue to use to survive fox's upsmash at 150%. Good times.Well, if it was Fox's u-smash you were just crouch cancelling it. Double sticking doesn't do much against that kind of a vertical knockback unless you're on a steep slope like corneria's fin or something.

[PNK4theWIN]

Ok, given that Im new to smashboards, NOT SSBM, just smashboards, and i am already learning things I never knew about! Methinks i made a smart choice...

[MegaKnight]

Well, if it was Fox's u-smash you were just crouch cancelling it. Double sticking doesn't do much against that kind of a vertical knockback unless you're on a steep slope like corneria's fin or something.

Well it was corneria's fin actually, and venom's too. I'm pretty sure it wasn't crouch cancelling, it acted like all the other double sticks. And i was holding up on the joystick, so unless you can crouch cancel while doing that, then it couldn't have been cc-ing.

I'll mess around with it some more just to make sure.

[Magus420]

That isn't how you double stick the u-smash though. You would hold away on the control stick, not up.

Actually, you can crouch cancel without holding down. You can tap down before you get hit then let go, and as long as you are still in the crouching animation you will get the reduced knockback with the advantage of not being forced into a downward directional DI, which would make you slide farther away when crouch cancel countering most attacks. This is good for characters that want to ccc something and stay closer as well as be able to ccc into any attack. For example, you can tap down, let go, then go directly into an u-tilt if you wanted quite easily this way.

[D'oH]

I have a love/hate relationship with your crazy tech stuff Magus.

[Pointman Rob]

Awesome technique. Just so I'm clear though, double sticking only works at around 40% or more? Or is that just vs. Peach's Dsmash?

[Magus420]

40% is a rough estimate for double sticking Peach's uncharged d-smash while still being close enough after it to counterattack. You need to do a standing non-roll tech for following up a teched d-smash which makes you skid pretty far. You can probably still get a grab a little higher than that though afterwards.

Survivalwise, you can techroll Peach's d-smash when uncharged on flat ground without crouch cancelling till 170% or so with down&behind on control and down on the cstick. Crouching would make that number a lot higher by reducing the knockback, but you could just shield it if you are able to crouch. Peach's d-smash sends pretty low compared to most, making it ground techable at really high damages. Peach's best option to KO after a rest is an u-air, unless on a slope where they can super sweetspot an u-smash (knockback of Fox's u-smash but not as DIable=OUCH). Turnips as setups for u-smashes are techable at KOing %s so that's out. If they are feeling lucky a charged pan would be better than an u-air though. On flat ground Peach is one of the absolute worst characters at punishing a rest if they know how to DI right.

[Pointman Rob]

Any tips on ds teching the falcon punch? I watched the 321% vid on youtube, but when I tried it myself on FD I could never hit the tech at KO %s. I'm not sure if its just because I don't have the timing for it yet, or if its because its just not possible on the flat ground. (If thats the case then I assume it was due to the incline on DK64 that you were able to tech it?)

Just to clarify, its at anything more than 60% that I can't hit the tech. Any and all tips/suggestions appreciated.

[Magus420]

You got it. That's around the limit for teching the FP on flat ground. I think it's ~55-60%. The FP just has too much knockback along with a slightly more upward knockback than the average diagonal sending hit to tech at a high damage on flatland. Better than the 35-40% that you'd survive with normal DI on most stages. You get the most benefit from double sticking as opposed to regular DI on small stages like Yoshi's Story. However, double sticking will almost always be more survivable than normal DI even on large stages like Dreamland 64 with attacks from that angle and lower.

A little slope will let you tech any diagonal or lower sending attack to ridiculous damages though. Then again, if they're aware of it they can hit the other way to make it far less techable than normal flatland. Better off with normal good directional DI in that case and down/towards on the c-stick depending on whether you'd die off the top or side.

[festizzio]

I tried downloading the video, but it said it's been deleted.

[Magus420]

K. Filefront link should work though. Forgot to add it in before I guess.