Nerfing the top

[Proteus]

I think everyone would agree that balance in Melee certainly wasn't as good as it should have been. The top 5 characters pretty much dominate the game and each can be considered almost broken in some ways. This thread is about trying to decide how best to balance the top few characters (Sorry if something like this has been posted before Mods, but I searched and didn't see anything like it). Obviously this is working on the assumption that all characters will be returning for Brawl and that the mechanics of Brawl will be similar to those of Melee.

1) Fox. He's at the top (along with Falco) for pretty much one reason. The shine. Take that away and he's just a slightly different version of Pikachu, really. Shine is what lets Fox get 9% kills and infinites and what makes him very difficult to shieldgrab. You have to be careful nerfing the shine those, because you don't want it to become as useless as Ness' absorb. I think reducing the normal end lag on the shine and giving it the same properties as Yoshi's shield would help balance it quite a bit (can't jump cancel it, but can roll or sidestep), in addition to it's reflector capabilities. I'm torn on whether or not to allow grabbing out of it though.

2) Falco. Same as Fox, essentially. Even without Shine combos he could still be a potent character. I've heard people say that nerfing Shine could destroy his pillar game, but he's still got the dtilt, utilt, and uair for popping people up. It just makes it less effective, which probably isn't a bad thing.

3) Sheik. A lot of posts I've read seem to want Sheik's tilts and chainthrowing nerfed. The chainthrowing I'll agree with, but (correct me if I'm wrong) PAL pretty much fixed that problem. I think the biggest problem with Sheik is that it's so easy to combo into her ridiculous KO move, the fair. Nerfing her combo ability isn't the answer, since that's what sets her apart, but the fair needs to be downgraded significantly. Not quite to the point of Fox and Falco's fair, but more like Y. Link's fair (or something along those lines) than C. Falcon's fair.

4) Marth. Pretty much, a general reduction in power is needed, and his spike needs to be meteor cancelable like it is in PAL. Compared to Roy, Marth is: heavier, stronger, faster, floatier, has longer grab range, and less lag time. That's clearly overpowered (unless Roy's just severely underpowered). I don't know what else can be done while still keeping him in character, bu taking away the ability to kill at incredibly low percents by comboing into a tipped fsmash should balance him out.

5) Peach. Again, need help with this one. I would probably reduce the power of turnips and slighly nerf her air attacks. Oh, and downgrade the downsmash. A lot. It can still be the best in the game but either it should come out slower or do less damage. It's pretty overpowered as it is now.

Feel free to post your suggestions. Personally I think Brawl should be balanced around Melee's Middle Tier, so I think all 5 of these characters need to be scaled down (and the bottom feeders brought up, but I'll have that topic up in a bit).

[Zombie Cola]

Is this a suggestion for future smash games, cuz if not this doesn't belong here.

[Proteus]

Obviously this is working on the assumption that all characters will be returning for Brawl and that the mechanics of Brawl will be similar to those of Melee.
:ohwell: Of course this is for future Smash games. Melee's not going to be patched any time soon...

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I think everyone would agree that balance in Melee certainly wasn't as good as it should have been. The top 5 characters pretty much dominate the game and each can be considered almost broken in some ways. This thread is about trying to decide how best to balance the top few characters (Sorry if something like this has been posted before Mods, but I searched and didn't see anything like it). Obviously this is working on the assumption that all characters will be returning for Brawl and that the mechanics of Brawl will be similar to those of Melee.

1) Fox. He's at the top (along with Falco) for pretty much one reason. The shine. Take that away and he's just a slightly different version of Pikachu, really. Shine is what lets Fox get 9% kills and infinites and what makes him very difficult to shieldgrab. You have to be careful nerfing the shine those, because you don't want it to become as useless as Ness' absorb. I think reducing the normal end lag on the shine and giving it the same properties as Yoshi's shield would help balance it quite a bit (can't jump cancel it, but can roll or sidestep), in addition to it's reflector capabilities. I'm torn on whether or not to allow grabbing out of it though.

2) Falco. Same as Fox, essentially. Even without Shine combos he could still be a potent character. I've heard people say that nerfing Shine could destroy his pillar game, but he's still got the dtilt, utilt, and uair for popping people up. It just makes it less effective, which probably isn't a bad thing.

3) Sheik. A lot of posts I've read seem to want Sheik's tilts and chainthrowing nerfed. The chainthrowing I'll agree with, but (correct me if I'm wrong) PAL pretty much fixed that problem. I think the biggest problem with Sheik is that it's so easy to combo into her ridiculous KO move, the fair. Nerfing her combo ability isn't the answer, since that's what sets her apart, but the fair needs to be downgraded significantly. Not quite to the point of Fox and Falco's fair, but more like Y. Link's fair (or something along those lines) than C. Falcon's fair.

4) Marth. Pretty much, a general reduction in power is needed, and his spike needs to be meteor cancelable like it is in PAL. Compared to Roy, Marth is: heavier, stronger, faster, floatier, has longer grab range, and less lag time. That's clearly overpowered (unless Roy's just severely underpowered). I don't know what else can be done while still keeping him in character, bu taking away the ability to kill at incredibly low percents by comboing into a tipped fsmash should balance him out.

5) Peach. Again, need help with this one. I would probably reduce the power of turnips and slighly nerf her air attacks. Oh, and downgrade the downsmash. A lot. It can still be the best in the game but either it should come out slower or do less damage. It's pretty overpowered as it is now.

Feel free to post your suggestions. Personally I think Brawl should be balanced around Melee's Middle Tier, so I think all 5 of these characters need to be scaled down (and the bottom feeders brought up, but I'll have that topic up in a bit).

2 things..

1.Why on earth would you make 2 topics just to talk about one subject?It's just wasting space,and makes it easy to lock.

2.Why would you want to nerf the top and improve the bottom? By doing this the problem will still remain the same,there will stil be unbalance between the characters,it's just reversed.In that case,why not leave it the same?Sorry,but your idea doesn't support common logic.

That's all i can say for now.

[Doggalina]

So you want to nerf Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Peach? If they all move down in the tier list, then Captain Falcon is potentially top tier! It's a dream come true!

[Kashakunaki]

I'm sorry. I couldn't stand what you were saying. You are basing a lot of what you are saying on your opinions and views rather than fundamental facts and field testing. Driving me crazy. I couldn't read on past Shiek.

[Proteus]

2 things..

1.Why on earth would you make 2 topics just to talk about one subject?It's just wasting space,and makes it easy to lock.

2.Why would you want to nerf the top and improve the bottom? By doing this the problem will still remain the same,there will stil be unbalance between the characters,it's just reversed.In that case,why not leave it the same?Sorry,but your idea doesn't support common logic.

That's all i can say for now.

1. It's two different topics, really.

2. I said I wanted to balance Brawl around the middle tier...thus, the top few characters need to be nerfed (that doesn't mean rendered useless) and the bottom few need to be boosted (which doesn't mean overpowered). In theory that would balance out the cast. The point of this topic is to figure out how best to balance the top characters.

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

1. It's two different topics, really.

2. I said I wanted to balance Brawl around the middle tier...thus, the top few characters need to be nerfed (that doesn't mean rendered useless) and the bottom few need to be boosted (which doesn't mean overpowered). In theory that would balance out the cast. The point of this topic is to figure out how best to balance the top characters.

Wouldn't it just be more easy to improve the bottom characters insted of all that riff raff?

[kaid]

^ can you imagine Bowser if he was as good as Fox is now?

Bring the best characters down to reasonable levels, and bring reveryone else up to match.

[Ryu777]

dont ruin good moves like the reflector, just make the lower characters just as complex and powerful.

[Jacker128]

^ can you imagine Bowser if he was as good as Fox is now?

Bring the best characters down to reasonable levels, and bring reveryone else up to match.

At the same time, let's bring the crappy characters like Yoshi up a step or two. I agree with you, but we don't need five characters nerfed; I only see Fox and Shiek in need of a nerfing.

Peach...nerfed? Come on, Mario has more chances of being nerfed than Peach.

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

^ can you imagine Bowser if he was as good as Fox is now?

Bring the best characters down to reasonable levels, and bring reveryone else up to match.

Um,yeah,that would be good because people would use diffirent characters insted of te same ones.bringing down the best is idiotic.If you make them all good,it'll be even,and there would be more indavidualality in tournaments.

Then we could talk about how bad that Yoshi pwned that Fox in a tournament.

[kaid]

^By bringing down the best, you get the same effect.

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

^By bringing down the best, you get the same effect.

Yes,but it wouldn't be as fun if EVERYONE was good.:)

[greenblob]

So you want to nerf Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Peach? If they all move down in the tier list, then Captain Falcon is potentially top tier! It's a dream come true!

If it follows the patter of 64 to melee, it could happen.

In 64: Pika, Kirby, and Ness are top tier, Fox and Falcon are slightly below them, Samus is bottom tier, and everyone else is scattered in the middle for the most part.
In Melee: Pika, Kirby, and Ness are severely nerfed and Fox and Falcon take the top/high tier along with some of the new characters. Samus is brought up from bottom tier to high/mid tier. The other characters are practically unchanged in the tier list.
If the pattern follows, then the top 3-5 characters are severely nerfed, a few lower/bottom tier characters are brought up, everything else stays the same, and the new characters are scattered around here and there.

[Earthbound360]

I think he means just evening out the characters, give him a break guys. He's talking about making the characters so even in performance that all characters can be used in tournament play, have pros, and the tier list would be somewhat vague. This was done in the past, so there's no stopping nintendo from doing it again. Ness, Kirby, and Pika were all top, and are now realatively low now. (but Ness doesn't deserve to be. siggy)

[SupaSmashBrotha]

No. We don't want another Kirby fiasco.

[8-bit hacker]

Is this a suggestion for future smash games, cuz if not this doesn't belong here.

I don't know. Sounds like whining to me.

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Removing the ability of the reflector to deal direct damage would be an excellent way to nerf them without taking away too much....

it's not like the way that it's being used was the intention of the original attack anyway

[8-bit hacker]

Removing the ability of Luigi's taunt to deal direct damage would be an excellent way to nerf him without taking away too much....

it's not like the way that it's being used was the intention of the original attack anyway

Fix'd.

I would rather see something like a rape reduction rather then a complete removale.

[bijoukaiba]

I think in the transition to Brawl, this time the bottom tier characters should be boosted stronger. If Nintendo tries to make all the highest-ranked characters worse, it'll just take longer. I personally believe improving the bottom characters will be easier. And I would LOVE to see Ness and Pikachu come back on top. I never played SSB64, but imagining what their past potential was like is just... huzzah.

[SSJ4Kazuki]

I bumped the VERY last post. Hooray. PK-Jibaku needs more range, like it had in SSB64.

Once again, Ness's dair needs it's mean spikey-ness back.

Pika falls faster, making his nair edgeguard harder to do.

Also, he has much worse recovery in Melee.

KIRBY needs a better Nair, more priority on the F-smash/every attack.

[.kR0]

Yeah, instead of a nerf, buffing the lower tier seem to be a better option (in terms of evening the characters out).

I'd rather see a group of players happy over a buff, than a large group complaining and whining about a nerf.

[Bowserlick]

Buffing and nerfing is needed in order to balance the characters (or at least balance them the best the designers can). However, when a character is nerfed that does not mean that all its great attacks have to be watered down. This is a bad example of nerfing. Take Kirby for instance. In the first game he had powerful smashes and his ariel down A was too useful for a floaty character. But in the second game almost every positive aspect of him was taken away. His dash sucks and you really hve to work in order to get a kill. He has almost no KO power and to top that off, he is insanely light.

The purpose of nerfing is to make the game more fun by taking out cheap moves. That doesn't mean the properties of the shine have to be fully taken away when it comes to Fox. Adding unique ways to get off a low percentage kill makes the game entertaining and challenging as well as strategic. But when that cheap move can easily be used over and over again to create the same frustrating situation, then it needs some work. Maybe if the shine hit the characters away, but at a different angle such as backwards and up then it wouldn't have its instant KO properties.

Buffing is needed for the lower characters. A good example of this is Samus. She is now a fighter to be reckoned with, without being overpowered.

[Zenjamin]

People on these boards all consider themselves pros.
If an honest poll was taken, most of the people who post here would be top tier.

So don’t except much support. Most of these people will bypass logic for selfish reasons.

But I agree that balance should be the focus of brawl.



Peach
the classic damsel in distress, always being captured by donkey Kong and bowser, always needing Mario to save her... so why, when she twirls her little dress around, unleashes the most powerful move in the game?! Im ganondorf, and do not have a move more damaging then hers.
Just severely nerf peaches power.
To compensate, increase the power of her turnips, and give her uptilt a stun effect. who wouldn’t stop and do a double take when she lifts up her dress and shows off the other peach?
And make the stun effect for Zelda twice as long.
hawt :lick:

Falco
The shine isn’t the problem, it’s the drill. It is insanely quick, and can send the opponent in any direction. Something that can spike you above the highest platform in battlefield screams nerf.

Marth
The game starts. I am below Marth in PK stadium. He drops and hits me. Jumps and hits me a second time with the sweet spot. I am flying off to the side in an explosion of light.
1.2 seconds have passed since the fight began.
this character has insane knockback, second best spike in the game, some of the fastest moves in the game, a quick run, the second farthest grab in the game a counter to most, if not every, move in the game and the best melee range in the game.
The only "bad" move he has is the up smash.
He just doesn’t have any negatives to balance out his positives.

Balance needs to be the name of the game.

But it’s not something im too worried about. Nintendo will keep an eye on game balance and will most likely use free patches to tweak balance to ensure that skill comes from the player, not the character



p.s.
im perfectly fine all charcters being buffed to the hightiers level as opposed to the high tiers being nerfed.
doesnt really matter.

[Naota-Kun]

Ehhh, even the the Top and Upper Tiers are overpowered I still disagree with nerfing. I know a lot of Kriby, Pikachu, and Ness users for 64 were outraged when their Tops got nerfed to the max so more pissing off could occur when nerfing of Top, Upper Tier, or any characters get nerfed. What you should do is oomph the lower tiers (Mid, Low, and Bottom) high enough they can serve a near or perfect match up for the Upper and Top Tiers. Now that is intelligent thinking not to mention now more variety will be seen in tourney videos (which I watch. I'm too unfortunate to go to a real one).

[Bowserlick]

Nerfing is need in some situations. Why do the fast characters have the fastest best spikes in the game? Don't you think DK (who doesn't need to use alot of effort for strength) should have a faster better spike then Falco, who merely spins his toes.

With that being said, buffing is usually the better answer. Heavy characters need stun resistance. But some wacky moves do need nerfing. So I have to rephrase my opinion.

Characters themselves might not need nerfing. Kirby now sucks (although he still has alot of flavor and is fun to play as) from a technical fighting stance. But certain moves do require nerfing. Buffing characters, however, is alright.

[Naota-Kun]

Nerfing is need in some situations. Why do the fast characters have the fastest best spikes in the game? Don't you think DK (who doesn't need to use alot of effort for strength) should have a faster better spike then Falco, who merely spins his toes.

With that being said, buffing is usually the better answer. Heavy characters need stun resistance. But some wacky moves do need nerfing. So I have to rephrase my opinion.


Wow, I do agree on you with that about Super Heavy Weights need more resistance against attacks kinda like Giga Bowser does since I remember from DK64 that Donkey Kong was said to weigh over 800 lbs. One problem about DK's legs. They're small and his upperbody has more strength since that is the usual case with apes. Mewtwo is way to underweight himself (imagine Pikachu inside Bowser's body with the strength removed?). He weighs almost 280 lbs for God sakes and you tell me he can get sent as far flying as say a 14 lbs mouse? Ludicrous!

Anyways I do agree SOME aspects that are extremely overpowered need to be modified to be a tad bit nerfed like Falco's Chuck Norris Spike.

[Bowserlick]

That is true. DK does have little legs so his down ariel attack is fine, but his toward ariel should be more devastating. It should have the properties of Falco's spike but with the delay the move currently has. And Marth and Falco should lose their insane spike or at least make the animation longer so it looks like they are putting some effort into sending their enemy screaming into a chasm five hundred feet below.

[Naota-Kun]

Yes, quick, easy, insanely strong Spikes are ridiculous even for Top Tiers. Jesus, and when did Marth in Fire Emblem ever had the ability to split boulders and topple castles? His powers nearly rival Ganondorf in Melee but I guess it is fine since it takes practice to get that tipper (why is the tip stronger? Is his sword some rapier or something?). Mewtwo has been totally nerfed to the max when it was transfered from his world into Melee. He is the opposite of everything he is in the games (except for being large). If he's gonna be big and slow he could at least get range for being a psychic fighter and have power that is comparable with Ganondorf and get more weight (at least Samus range is fine). Melee is horrendously unbalance compared to most fighting games.

[Bowserlick]

Mewtwo had such potential for the best looking specials. With psychic powers it seemed like he could do anything. But his specials are pretty lame. His shadow ball is cool enough, but the others are just bleh.

His forward Smash seems kinda lame to me too. Its like Mario's but purple and fairly weak.

[Diddy Kong]

Nerfing the top tiers would be very logical. And it pretty much already happened in the PAL version, just slightly. To start with, I think the Shine is the first move that needs to be nerfed, I posted alot about this in other threads, so I'll not repeat myself. Fox's Shine is just too cheap, it can kill characters at 7%. Sure this takes skill, but I would feel very pissed if I got 3 stocks with 0% and I just killed Fox, he'd come back and kill me again in just 2 moves.

Now I will not continue with that, these are the characters who should be nerfed imo:

Marth:

Let's start by Marth. One of the most populair and most used characters from Melee.
He has insane range, and in addition to that, he has a sweetspot at the end of the blade, making you able to do high damage from maximum range. His grabs are also very long, and can be chained.

I would nerf Marth by:

Shorten his sword and grab.
If Marth's range was just a little shorter, he'd be fine actually.
His sweetspot still could be at the same spot, ofcoarse. In addition, they could just make Marth a little bit smaller aswell, so that it wouldn't look strange.

Loose some weight.:
This already happened in the PAL version.
Marth in the PAL version, has the same weight as Mewtwo, Young Link and his worser counterpart, Roy. This isn't exactly necencarly, but it's still nerfing him without really changing the way the character plays.

He could still have his killer moves as the Fsmash and >B. After all he shouldn't really change that much, except just fix small things as double Fairs.

Peach:

Now here's Peach. A character who isn't exactly fast nor strong. She was the only higher tier character that didn't got nerfed in the PAL version. She has many good things as the turpins, ground floating and her Downsmash of DOOM. The last one might probarly the worst thing what can happen to you while fighting the princess in pink.

I would nerf Peach by;

Remove ground floating.

Not reaaaally necencarly, but it's still there. It's basically just Peach's SH technique, but the fact that she can combo an areal move into a downsmash... I say they should remove this, but they can ofcoarse let her still be able to float low above the ground, so it's actually possible to escape a ground attack.

Make her lighter.

Peach is rather heavy. Some would say she's not, but I think she is. Peach was always classified as a light weight character. Except for Mario Kart Double Dash, but in other Mario Karts and Mario Sport games, she always was more of a fragile character. Also she has probarly the best recovery in the game, making her rather high weight very useful.

The Down Smash...

Now we're talking about something...
This move is probarly the most feared move in the whole game.
And it's feared for a reason, it's uber! It's broken, it shakes your character around, and... It's preformed by nothing more but a mere DRESS. O_O;

I would nerf this move by giving it less range at first. Then, make the animation shorter. How many times can it hit you? Around 5~6 times when you CC? Cut that down to 3 or 4 and we're fine. Give it some lag and more knockback would help to.

That's basically all for Peach. Perhaps they could decrase some power from her moves to... But these 3 points are really what makes Peach so good. Her turnpins may ofcoarse stay. :)

Sheik:

Let's talk about Sheik now. A character who defended the tittle as God Tier for a very long time. She was considered being the best character off all, and many people believe she still is... With reasons...

Sheik's uber qualities:

Chainthrowing.

This is something I've never actually experienced, because (and I've mentioned it before) I own the PAL version. However, chainthrowing is in general considered being very cheap. But Sheik can chainthrow cetrain character from 0% till dead. This deffinatly needs nerfing, and she already did got it in the PAL version, except that to atleast be fixed in Brawl.

The Fair.

The Forward Air. Also known as the Fist of God.
This move basically screws over any recovery. If your hit by it, your dead.
It it one of Sheik's very few killer moves. But it is a move that will give you a guaranteed death. It's knockback is extremly good. This move has to be nerfed, and because Sheik would have no killer moves anymore, just make some of her moves more powerfull.

Fox.

Fox McCloud, or should I call him Fox McShine? This character is currently considered being the very best of the game. No explaining is needed, we all know why. It's his small size, lightning speed and suprisingly strong moves and combo's what make him this good. And ofcoarse ... the Shine.

What I would nerf about Fox;

The Shine.

Now this is basically a must. Many Fox players just play Fox to shinespike others.
I can understand that, because it feels so evil and yet so good when you shinespike someone and he will go all mad. But yeah, the other guy (or girl ;) ) has REASONS to be mad...

First of all, this move kills you at very very very early precentages.
One mistake, and your dead. You lost your second jump? Your dead to.
Just going to the egde is already a big mistake, Fox first will pillar you if you try to escape and then he has you. The Shine also negelates (sp?) %. It doesn't matter on what % you are, your always be knocked just as far away.

It's the ideal edgeguard move, sure it's not as effective or as guaranteed as Sheik's Fair, but Sheik's Fair can only kill if the other character atleast has 50~60%. Fox doesn't bother with %, he'll kill you anyways.

Shorten the recovery.

Fox has insane good recovery. Yes he's very light, but he's fast falling so you will be having difficulties to Star KO him. The other way to kill him, is just knock him of the stage, but he can return from it easly. Only from real powerful moves as the Gaint Punch or Charge Shot will get Fox so far that he can't return.

Yet his recovery is easy to predict, and already got shortened in the PAL version. The lenght in my version doesn't bothers me as much, so they can keep it. That was that about Fox.

Now ofcoarse there is also Falco, but Im pretty sure he will get his own moves in Brawl, if only he would be Luigified. So I don't think I should waste my time typing about what makes the SHL so cheap, or the spike. ;)

Now people that was that, Im tired now.
I did my best for this, so comments or rep would be nice.

~DDK

[Naota-Kun]

Funny how Mewtwo in Smash was excessively weak, huh, and he had the power to demolish reinforced structures in anger and perform a worldwide genocide by simply swinging his hands to create a storm. He was extremely fast in the movie as well. His F-Smash was a terrible attack. It was unaccurate, weak, and slow. Mewtwo should have more range being a psychic and all (as well as what any character with superelemental powers should have anyways). Marth also had the annoying telekinetic grab that matches the length of his sword. That needs some slight nerfing.

[Zenjamin]

whats this" PAL version" im hearing about?

[Aiser]

1) Fox. He's at the top (along with Falco) for pretty much one reason. The shine. Take that away and he's just a slightly different version of Pikachu, really. Shine is what lets Fox get 9% kills and infinites and what makes him very difficult to shieldgrab. You have to be careful nerfing the shine those, because you don't want it to become as useless as Ness' absorb. I think reducing the normal end lag on the shine and giving it the same properties as Yoshi's shield would help balance it quite a bit (can't jump cancel it, but can roll or sidestep), in addition to it's reflector capabilities. I'm torn on whether or not to allow grabbing out of it though. I'ves seen foxs win with out the shine, and be just as gay. Shine doesn't make fox good, fox is good because his entire moves set is broken.

I noticed later in this thread someone said the shine wasn't intended as an attack. Funny how it delt damage in the 64 version and melee. I guess it just slipped their minds.

2) Falco. Same as Fox, essentially. Even without Shine combos he could still be a potent character. I've heard people say that nerfing Shine could destroy his pillar game, but he's still got the dtilt, utilt, and uair for popping people up. It just makes it less effective, which probably isn't a bad thing. Again, pillering doesn't make falco what he is, his approach is his primary resource. (in my opinion that is)

3) Sheik. A lot of posts I've read seem to want Sheik's tilts and chainthrowing nerfed. The chainthrowing I'll agree with, but (correct me if I'm wrong) PAL pretty much fixed that problem. I think the biggest problem with Sheik is that it's so easy to combo into her ridiculous KO move, the fair. Nerfing her combo ability isn't the answer, since that's what sets her apart, but the fair needs to be downgraded significantly. Not quite to the point of Fox and Falco's fair, but more like Y. Link's fair (or something along those lines) than C. Falcon's fair. Glad you're not nerfing this **** cause, sheik would blow. Nerf her fair so its about as strong as say marths nair or links fair something like that. Her bair is fine it requires spacing to really get its full effect.

4) Marth. Pretty much, a general reduction in power is needed, and his spike needs to be meteor cancelable like it is in PAL. Compared to Roy, Marth is: heavier, stronger, faster, floatier, has longer grab range, and less lag time. That's clearly overpowered (unless Roy's just severely underpowered). I don't know what else can be done while still keeping him in character, bu taking away the ability to kill at incredibly low percents by comboing into a tipped fsmash should balance him out. You reduce his grab range abit, reduce the power of the tipper. and give him a little less range and he's fine. Roy sucks, he is under powered. lol

5) Peach. Again, need help with this one. I would probably reduce the power of turnips and slighly nerf her air attacks. Oh, and downgrade the downsmash. A lot. It can still be the best in the game but either it should come out slower or do less damage. It's pretty overpowered as it is now.
Sounds okay to me I guess, her turnips arn't that strong actually so scratch that. <_< and her priority is pretty broken.

[Diddy Kong]

whats this" PAL version" im hearing about?

The PAL version is the game version of Europe and Australia.
There where small things changed, Marth, Sheik and Fox got nerfed a little.
Mario also was made lighter than Luigi.

If you wanna know all the diffrences check Melee Discussion.
There is a stickied thread somewhere which explains it more.

[Zenjamin]

thank you ddk

btw, it looks like zamus will be like sheik... nerf zamus:P

[Wallmaster]

First off, instead of just slightly changing Shiek's Fair, just greatly lower its knockback effect. Shiek does not need any killing blows, that is what Zelda is for. Nerf Shiek, buff Zelda.

But anyway, my opinion is that they won't do much nerfing. They are making a whole new game, not just a SSBM patch. They will probably change moves completely. It is impossible to know who will be top tier. They certainly don't mean to make characters any better than others, but a completely balanced game is impossible to make. (unless all the characters are pretty much the same)

[Kasumi]

Then there's the fact that we find stuff the developer's never even thought of. Marth's repeated B-Right for horizontal recovery comes to mind. I don't think that was the first thing that came to mind when they made the attack.

[Fader]

Developers do not know who is at the "top tier" because in their eyes, every character was designed equally (with the exception of Pichu, who's purposely weak). Players designate and create tiers among themselves. Glitches and stuff put some characters where they are. For example, jump cancelling a reflecter sure helps remove the lag after the use. Essential for quick shine spikes. If the developers were to do anything, they'd fix glitches and such.