n00bs, semi-n00bs, and their tactics

[balladechina212]

To allow you to understand my problem, I will first give an overview of our 5-person crew (the way they play is put in parentheses):

1. Sheik/Fox (very technical, waveshine, drill shine, lots of wavedashing, etc.)

2. Dr. Mario (dash attack, ROLL, smash, bair, sometimes wavedashes)
Common combos: dash attack, dsmash (repeats this A LOT); SH pill, dsmash (repeats this A LOT); and basically any SH aerial (not SHFFLed) leading to a dsmash

3. Fox/Marth (dash attack, upsmash, dash attack, downsmash, ROLL, dash attack, occasional shine) - notice the emphasis on dash attacks

4. Me: Link (pretty technical, SHFFLs, L-cancels, wavedash, etc.)

5. Samus (a mix of 2, 3, and 4)

Our second seed bair edgeguards with Dr. Mario, sometimes wavedashes, does not L-cancel.

Our third seed, well, you can pretty much play his Fox with just your thumbs (analog stick and c-stick). You can see this video and observe for yourself what his Fox does(this is between number 3 and number 5). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN48LYv2DaE

To emphasize my point, I two-stocked (out of four) number 3's Fox with Peach by using four techniques: dsmash, throw turnips, nair, edgehog. I lose to the same Fox with Link and all my advanced techniques by usually two stock.

Here's the problem:
The Dr. Mario and the Fox/Marth are using these "skills" to beat me consistently. In fact, I do better as Link vs. the number 1's Sheik (Link's counter) than as Link vs. the Dr. Mario or number 3's Fox/Marth. I've noticed that whenever I play people who use advanced techniques, I tend to do better. However, when I play complete n00bs OR people like our 2nd and 3rd seed (they are not to be classified as n00bs) who do not use advanced techniques, I become stumped.

When I lose to these people, their KOs are usually gimps due to their high tier level relative to Link's.

What frustrates me is that characters like Fox and Marth can sometimes afford to just "smash and dash" and not worry about lag as much (before I get flamed, I realize that this is obviously not the case with pros or even semi-pros). Link, however, cannot do this and has to be more technical. Even then, he still might lose to these high tier characters.

This problem has caused much animosity within our crew because I am viewed by number 2 and number 3 as a horrible player, even though I can compete against the number 1 seed better than they can.

What ways are there to solve this problem? I know I can obviously find a good secondary, and I've been trying to do that. But what can I do with Link?

By the way, if while watching the above video, you happen to stumble upon some of my other videos, I do not suck that much. Those are outdated.

[SexyDoodles]

shieldgrab like a mofo.

I get what you're saying though, recently at a tourney I played a complete noob as Fox... he was almost winning for a while. I had no idea what to do.

but yeah, i think shieldgrabs almost always work on dash attacks.

[balladechina212]

I forgot to mention, there was a reason ROLL was capitalized. They do it so much instead of wavedashing that shieldgrabbing is futile, especially against Fox's low lag spam attacks.

[tobg]

umm, that fox should NOT be hard to beat, hes so slow and barley moves. you should try playing against a fox who knows how to play, then youll learn the meaning of the word frustration. also his tactics are incredibly predictable, dash, fsmash, roll.

[balladechina212]

But here's my question:
Since his tactics are so predictable, how do I use that to my advantage? Once I predict what he's going to do, what should I do to counter or take advantage of those situations? Plus, Fox is fast so he may recover before I do something to counter his predictability.

I'll post a vid soon with me and the other Fox (number 1). Ironically, I actually know how to deal with his annoyances with the shines and whatnot.

[tobg]

i think a simple up-b spam tactic would easily work on him, every time he goes to dash attack, just block and then shieldgrab, or up-b, really anything would work on him

[froz3ntear]

"I lose to the same Fox with Link and all my advanced techniques by usually two stock."

"I've noticed that whenever I play people who use advanced techniques, I tend to do better. However, when I play complete n00bs OR people like our 2nd and 3rd seed (they are not to be classified as n00bs) who do not use advanced techniques, I become stumped."


I think you have this misconception that advanced techniques make you better. I find it hypricritical when people say they do better against those who use advanced techniques because obviously... anyone that you're playing against using "advanced techniques" aren't using them correctly.

Who do you find more impressive, the guy who walks away perfectly distancing himself to avoid attacks and then grabs/smashes or the guy who's concentrating so much on wave dashing back and forth, he gets hit by any random move thrown at him. Sure to the untrained eye, one may look boring, and the other wavedashing dash dancing fool as amazing, but the truth is the game is a mental game, technical skill can only get you so far... and technical skill is completely useless without a mind that can use them effectively.

The fox could easily be beatin by the samus wave dashing backwards and smashing OR crouch canceling the dash attacks and smashing (link could up-b out of the shield to finish off any fox doing that). These are really simple examples, but basically before you start doing so called "advanced techniques", you should ask yourself "WHY", whether it be wave dashing, shffling, or anything... if it is for better distancing, unpredictability, or efficiency, you have to understand its purpose to use it correctly, they weren't created for no reason, they were created from necessity.

If you punish the fox for dash attacks and smashing, he will learn something that is less punishable like a sex kick, and if he gets punished from the lag, he will learn to L cancel and shine out of it... He is getting more skillful, and more advanced techniques and strategies are being created through necessity. As long as he continues to win with dash attacks and fsmashes, what reason does he have to get "better".

Another example would be... getting spammed by marth's fsmash. You shield it but hes out of range to grab, jumping out of your shield to attack is to slow and he recovers from the lag... so is rolling in either direction... so what solution is there?... You could wavedash and grab. No other option could replace the wavedash and so that was an "advanced technique" in my eyes, but wave dashing for the hell of it and getting punished for it would be in my eyes considered a downgrade. Same technique, one advanced, one not.

[KrazyKnux]

As long as he wins this way, why would he have to do anything else?

That's exactly right. The fox who he is having trouble with even said this:

I may use newb tactics, but i win with newb tactics. So therefore my newb tactics > your newb tactics

So if we want him to stop using the noob tactics, we're going to have to force him to learn advanced tactics by punishing him for doing "noob tactics", and not just by telling him to start waveshining and drill shining (although that'll make the transition easier from noob to advanced once he decides his "noob tactics" will no longer work). I mean, who wants to drill shine to infinite waveshine when "dash 'n' smash" works just as well and is so much easier? Anyway, I think froz3ntear gave you a pretty nice answer.

Maybe you should post a video of you vs. him (probably sometime this weekend) so you can get specific help of what you're doing wrong.

[froz3ntear]

I mean, who wants to drill shine to infinite waveshine when "dash 'n' smash" works just as well and is so much easier?

Haha, well I think all foxes wish they infinite waveshine, but you are correct that the "dash 'n' smash" is easier.

And it's not just easier, it has less risk, bascially less room for error. There is absolutely no point in doing something that is harder just for the same result, it just lowers the success rate for damage. You have to be aware of your capabilities and work with the options available to you doing the move that will give you the best result, with the least risk, and the highest success rate. If both moves have an equal chance of landing, but one is much harder to successfully pull off, there's just no reason to use the harder one. It will only make you fail more, miss oppertunities, and lose in the end.

[KrazyKnux]

well I think all foxes want to infinite waveshine

Oh yeah, XD. My bad, I meant "who wants to learn to drill shine to infinite waveshine when (in this circumstance) 'dash 'n' smash' works just as well (although, it obviously doesn't in higher levels of play)?"

Alright, you can take that advice and see what happens. If that doesn't work, we'll post up a vid (you vs. byped) to get specifics.

[froz3ntear]

Oh yeah, XD. My bad, I meant "who wants to learn to drill shine to infinite waveshine when (in this circumstance) 'dash 'n' smash' works just as well

lol, Yeah I knew what you meant. I was just joking.

[technomancer]

This is the first step to developing mindgames - anticipating your opponent. Now develop a counter, no matter how dumb or obvious, and practice it, and implement it when you're good at it. If it doesn't work, you learned something. If it does work, you can now gay them to death all day until they get better. If it works but they figure out how to get around it, MINDGAMEZ!

[balladechina212]

Good advice. However, my main point has not been addressed yet: tiers. Can a Link survive by "dash and smashing?" Of course not. I mean one way to counter him is to play a higher tier, as I did with Peach, and "dash and smash" with Peach. By spamming Peach's down smash, I two-stocked this Fox. So here's the question, should I get a better secondary?

[froz3ntear]

Can a Link survive by "dash and smashing?" Of course not.

Why not? No player should survive just by dashing and smashing... link's dash attack and smashes aren't bad either. If your only solution is to pick another character... go for it, because it's not "can link survive" its can YOU survive from dash and smashing. Don't blame the character, it is only you... as you get better in the game, you'll realize its less about the character and more about you.

I barely play, and I don't attend the nor cal biweeklys (although im becoming more active and playing more now) but I can beat competitive players who play more and attend the tournement often with almost every character... and I'm no where near a high level player. To sum it up, the game is a mental game, if your only solution is to change characters and you couldn't think of any counter for the very simple "Dash attack and smash" then go for it.

[BigRick]

J122, one of your problems is that it seems that you have trouble finishing up your opponents. In your vids, that Doc had a huge advantage over you because he could edgeguard you while you havd no idea how to edgeguard him. I don't play Link, but I would say that you need to work on your edgeguarding.

The objective of the game is to get your opponent's *** off the stage... if you can't do that, then you can't win.

[DLK]

Well i play link and the best combo i would recommend would have to be shieldgrab to downthrow to up-b. Kill any fox if close enough to edge.

[KrazyKnux]

one of your problems is that it seems that you have trouble finishing up your opponents

Yeah, that's probably a big factor to it. Too many times when i watch your battles i hear myself saying "too much damage". The last PH.D match you had, you got him up to around 180 without killing him. We both know that's a bit ridiculous.

[balladechina212]

Like I said, those vids are kind of outdated. I would edgehog more nowadays instead of attempting to up-B spike.

I still do not see how shield grabbing or up-B out of shield is useful against roll spammers with low lags after their attacks.

[NoirLink]

Every argument presented is a great one.

I remember when I first started playing Melee competitively. I searched for advanced tactics cause I felt they were going to be what made me worth a ****. Now I see that that wasn't the case. I would lose to mediocre Fox's and less-than-special Marth's because I was busy wavedashing back and forth. *laughs* Looking back on it, it really was comical. I had to learn to play a good strategic game while incorporating high-lvl tactics.

Now, I know this was already addressed, but I think it's the focal point to getting you to understand what should and shouldn't be done.

Since we can't see your present play style it's harder to provide some insight as to what, if anything, you could do instead of what you are already doing, but it's important to understand that it's best to find a solution to the problem instead of hoping something will work. Don't just toss out highlvl tactics in hopes that they'll work. Use simple and effective tactics and, if the situation dictates, then, and only then, should you start playing with a little more technical flair. ' ' D

Bait the roll so that Fox recovers from the roll in the middle of your upB, I think this is what was suggested before, I could be wrong, but it makes sense against the simplicity of that Fox's play style.

NL