All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update) [Archive] - Page 12

tarheeljks

01-11-2007, 01:37 AM

@mood: yeah, at the moment I think it's not a bad approximation; the weighted average is much better than a regular average. But you're right-- we can do better. The idea of exponents is interesting. If you really want to get specific you could use make a regression from tournament data using frequency of character use, but that would take a lot of time. Anyway, I'll keep playing around with it and see what I get.

quak

01-11-2007, 01:40 AM

Rapid_Assassin

01-11-2007, 02:09 AM

wow, very impressed, very thurough, good job.

hilarious, mewtwo's best match up is a 5, ****.

i'd say bump mewtwo's match ups against luigi and G&W both up 1, G&W is super light and easily killed, and luigi is so easy to edgegaurd with mewtwo. Im fairly sure most mewtwo players would agree.

Some one sticky this

I'd disagree. G+w might be light, and easy to kill. But so is Mewtwo. And G+w's attacks in general have more KOing power. He isn't countered by Mewtwo. And yes, I play them both.

Some of the other matchups I'd bump up one or two, mostly because I don't think they are as bad as say 0-5, but are bad enough for a 1-5 or 2-5 rating. Specifically, Sheik, Marth, IC.

AzN_Lep

01-11-2007, 02:27 AM

Sorry if I swapped the terms. I was rambling and must've tripped up a bit. Anyways "don't bring stats into this?" Why not? When analyzing a chart or graph statistical data is probably the most concrete method for comparison, especially since every started looking at the chart mathematically.

tarheeljks

01-11-2007, 04:27 AM

yeah azn, you just swapped them accidentally. when considering the matchup character A has against characters X and Y, A vs. X and A vs. Y have independent outcomes, but the events aren't mutually exclusive.
As far as bringing in stats/math is concerned, it started w/Airo when he did the initial tally. I'm all for it, this is the only way we can hope to definitively determine the" overall best" character or characters.

edit: i'm gonna start doing the weighted average tally. . .

tarheeljks

01-11-2007, 05:48 AM

So I actually bailed on doing te weighted tally for the moment b/c I need a question answered first.

Does the matchup chart evaluate these matchups with bias towards character popularity? The answer affects how to determine/derive the weights:

If so, then the weights would implicitly reflect the fact that there are more higher tier characters in tournaments than lower tier characters.

However, if it doesn't (which I suspect/hope is the case) these weights aren't of much use b/c they don't account for the higher frequency of appearances by characters such as fox, falco, sheik, marth, etc. Currently the weights only indicate the significance of the matchup between two characters. To produce a meaningful weight, the weight must also account for the fact that you are more likely to play character A than character B.

The question is how to create weights that demonstrate these characteristics?

Also, what does a sticky mean anway?

Citrussed

01-11-2007, 06:18 AM

Just a quick question.

Why is Pichu vs Fox rated 2-5?

I thought that Pichu had a better chance what with Pichu being able to chaingrab fastfallers.

Airo

01-11-2007, 06:47 AM

I'd disagree. G+w might be light, and easy to kill. But so is Mewtwo. And G+w's attacks in general have more KOing power. He isn't countered by Mewtwo. And yes, I play them both.

Some of the other matchups I'd bump up one or two, mostly because I don't think they are as bad as say 0-5, but are bad enough for a 1-5 or 2-5 rating. Specifically, Sheik, Marth, IC.

well G+W aint so hard to edgeguard. but G+W nair IS very anoying, responsible for a good amount of G+W kOs. G+W also dies from mewtwo Upthrows easily. but in summary, phannas judgement doesnt seem too off to me.

however mewtwo vs sheik certainly isnt THAT bad from my experience. sheik eats dtilt > fair like face and pie x.x but thats only one of many good and bad factors. still it looks better than 5-1

N64

01-11-2007, 08:48 AM

Just a quick question.

Why is Pichu vs Fox rated 2-5?

I thought that Pichu had a better chance what with Pichu being able to chaingrab fastfallers.

Good luck grabbing a fox as a character with one of the worst grab ranges in the game.

Citrussed

01-11-2007, 09:29 AM

Good luck grabbing a fox as a character with one of the worst grab ranges in the game.

Oh I get it now. :laugh:

g-regulate

01-11-2007, 10:30 AM

fox IS hard to grab, but if 2 people are around the same skill level, its usually not as hard to trick someone into a grab. a good fox is definitely hard to grab tho.

Mew2King

01-11-2007, 11:44 AM

try my new tier list

Top 4 - tie

Peach/Falcon - tie

Samus/ICs/Ganon/Doc/Mario/Jiggs - tie

rest who cares. Note that ties signify they are all within 90% as good as each other at very very least.

tarheeljks

01-11-2007, 05:50 PM

@mew2: makes sense based on the matchups. just leave the rest in the bottom/low tier as it stands currently.
edit: actually, I think Marth should be lower. he definitely fits your 90% rule, I just feel like he's not quite top tier. I have similar sentiments about Sheik, but I think Sheik is fine that high.

marthsword

01-11-2007, 06:08 PM

Why is this not stickied?

BigRick

01-11-2007, 11:42 PM

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=63399

I don't feel that this poll gives a good representation, but I feel that we could do another one, saying sumtin like who do you mainly use in TOURNAMENT play.

Then we take that data into account, plus the final version of the chart to make the brand new tier list.

EDIT: One example why I say that poll isn't that accurate: there should be more Sheiks less Links IMO. Plenty of ppl have Link as their fav char, but they don't actually main him... Also, it seems that a good number of Sheik players aren't too proud to be maining Sheik (due to her reputation perhaps?)

tarheeljks

01-12-2007, 03:22 AM

@rick: sounds good to me, but let's see if we can get someone well known to post it so that people will read it. no one will give a **** if i post it.

edit: it would be even better if we could get tourney results that indicated who used what character. I haven't checked the mlg site, but does anyone know if they have it?

Fonz

01-13-2007, 05:31 AM

"don't bother calling me stupid, I go to Yale."

Is that a joke, or a quote from someone else? =P

ToP CaT

01-13-2007, 01:15 PM

idk fonz but hit the jukebox and make it turn on...

phanna

01-13-2007, 01:39 PM

Is it just my internet, or is the picture from the first page not showing up? I also can't see my normal signature, or a few other things I've uploaded to Imageshack. They might have done some annual cleanouts or something, and so if anyone else can't see the picture, let me know and I'll re-upload it.

Trespayne

01-13-2007, 02:58 PM

AzN_Lep

01-13-2007, 03:04 PM

The picture is still coming up just fine for me

linkmastersword

01-13-2007, 03:37 PM

Yeah, this post should be stickied. It's a great thread and I have almost memorized the important things now. I have tested a lot of these matchups and they are accurate. I have used peach more against IC's and it works a lot better. I have also been using shiek everytime I play a marth now and it works great too.

this is why I hate the fact that counter charts exist.

why can't you just work at making your character better, against those that have the advantage on you?

but if you were talking about tournament play then that is perfectly understandable.

Fonz

01-13-2007, 03:57 PM

idk fonz but hit the jukebox and make it turn on...

haha, touche

names not from that though =P

tarheeljks

01-13-2007, 06:29 PM

@fonz: no it's not a joke. it is a pre-emptive statement directed at anyone who wants to call me stupid or flame me.

@linksmasterword: it's not necessary to be an aspiring pro in order for the chart to be useful. using it to see how your character stacks up against your friend's is perfectly reasonable

arrowhead

01-13-2007, 06:53 PM

bush went to yale. not saying anything against you or yale, but just cause you go to a good college doesn't always mean you're smart

phanna

01-13-2007, 07:07 PM

Okay, when I go to do an update, that last thing I need to read is people discussing the merits of various colleges. Please stay on subject if you're going to post in here, or PM the person if you want to carry on your own conversation.

Captain-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-Falcon

01-14-2007, 04:19 AM

This is my own opinion, I think this chart is RIGGED and biased.
The maker must obviously like Fox and Falcon a lot.
Captain Falcon has much favourable matchups than that.

MoogleDude

01-14-2007, 04:21 AM

This is my own opinion, I think this chart is RIGGED and biased.
The maker must obviously like Fox and Falcon a lot.
Captain Falcon has much favourable matchups than that.

like what??? tell us why

Captain-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-Falcon

01-14-2007, 04:28 AM

Well for starters, Fox and Falcon dont have less than 5 against ANYBODY except fox against Falcon and Marth
and Falcon against Peach.
But we all know in every fighting game every character has strengths and weaknesses, its like rock paper scissors.

StripesOrBars

01-14-2007, 04:46 AM

LOL.

Join date Jan 2007.

GG.

tarheeljks

01-14-2007, 05:04 AM

yeah, bush went to yale b/c his daddy was very rich; it's called being a legacy. i got in based on merit. (sorry phanna, i'm done w/this now--gotta defend my school)

@captain falcon: dude, smash is not like rock paper scissors at all. there is more than enough evidence to indicate that a few characters in this game dominate the field on average.

StripesOrBars

01-14-2007, 05:24 AM

Actually. The smash community as a whole can agree:

Fox/Falco>Shiek
Marth>Fox/Falco
Shiek>Marth

But they're all so close they might as well be:

Fox/Falco=Shiek
Marth=Fox/Falco
Shiek>Marth

tarheeljks

01-14-2007, 05:29 AM

Actually. The smash community as a whole can agree:

Fox/Falco>Shiek
Marth>Fox/Falco
Shiek>Marth

But they're all so close they might as well be:

Fox/Falco=Shiek
Marth=Fox/Falco
Shiek>Marth

I think Marth is the weakest of the four

StripesOrBars

01-14-2007, 05:34 AM

Yeah, because of Shiek.

yomedrath

01-14-2007, 07:07 AM

sorry for the question, but is there a matchup chart somewhere for PAL, too?
i mean, i can use this one also, but a few things might not match :)
thanks
btw. , i really like this chart ^^
i din´t have any idea of all this before i found it :P

ChozenOne

01-14-2007, 01:20 PM

I think Marth is the weakest of the four
Yeah.. but Marth randomly wins due to the ability to play gay. Shiek,Fox,andFalco are just consistantly good. Marth has the ability to do some serioulsy rediculous spikes, space insanely well, and get very low KO's due to his tipper.

ToP CaT

01-14-2007, 06:10 PM

ya none of them are weaker than any other, marth ownz fox and falco on small stages, falco ownz fox and marth on big stages, shiek and fox are always even, shiek and falco go back and forth depending on stages and shiek rapes marth on close stages, but can lose on stages with more space.

StripesOrBars

01-14-2007, 07:15 PM

I swear I post this 5 times a day.

Fox=Falco(maybe slightly in Falco's favor)
Fox=Marth(Maybe slightly in Marth's favor)
Fox=Shiek(Maybe slightly in Fox's favor)

Falco=Fox(Maybe slightly in Falco's Favor)
Falco=Marth
Falco=Shiek(Tipped towards Falco on certain stages)

Marth=Fox(Maybe slightly in Marth's favor)
Marth<<<<Shiek(Wahhhh)
Marth=Falco

Shiek=Fox(Maybe slightly in Fox's favor)
Shiek=Falco(Maybe slighty in Falco's favor)
Shiek>>>Marth(No Johns)