All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[exarch]

Doodah I gotta disagree. Marth vs Sheik isn't really that bad. It's more like
Marth </= Sheik. If the marth knows how to play right.
Also Topcat sheik RAPES (marth) on DL. That's a big stage where she just trashes him.

Another thing: Roy vs Ness isn't that bad for Roy. Initially it is, but it just takes some getting used to. Lobster almost 4 stocked me at first a couple months ago; but last gigabits I won when he was warmed up and i definitely wasn't. It's definitely a doable match.
6-4 Ness

[Virgilijus]

I swear I post this 5 times a day.

Fox=Falco(maybe slightly in Falco's favor)
Fox=Marth(Maybe slightly in Marth's favor)
Fox=Shiek(Maybe slightly in Fox's favor)

Falco=Fox(Maybe slightly in Falco's Favor)
Falco=Marth
Falco=Shiek(Tipped towards Falco on certain stages)

Marth=Fox(Maybe slightly in Marth's favor)
Marth<<<<Shiek(Wahhhh)
Marth=Falco

Shiek=Fox(Maybe slightly in Fox's favor)
Shiek=Falco(Maybe slighty in Falco's favor)
Shiek>>>Marth(No Johns)

I agree with everything but the Sheik>>>Marth. Sheik definitely has an advantage, no doubt about that, but it is not to that degree. Fights between good Marths and good Sheiks typically come down to the wire. I'd stick with 6-4 in favor of Sheik.

[mood4food77]

it's more like 5-3, only really, really good marths can equal up to really good sheiks

i'm still confused on ness against link and y. link, how does he have the advantage, last time i checked, ness hates sword users or all types

[ToP CaT]

dreamland is a unique stage

[xTOXNx]

I have been waiting for one of these for along time. Now we just need a thread showing the best/worst stages for each character :laugh:

[M3RC]

Falco on Fountain FTW

[IAmAUser]

Could someone make a print version of this? I want to make a copy for reference, but my printer would hate me forever for using that much ink.:dizzy:

[Zenjamin]

hello.
first off, thank you for this guide Phanna it kicks ***, keep perfecting it:)



im a ganon main who was looking for an alt for ganon's weaknesses.

when i came here i was surprised to find that ganon only had three disadvantages as my friend is always telling me ganon sucks. (he is just better then me)

question 1:
so why is ganon so low on the tier list? is it that there are so few ganon players? or do they just get knocked out by sheik/falco/fox?

question 2:
i have a thing against space animals, peach, and jiggs. so the only person left that seems to cover ganon's weaknesses is ICs. problem is i have only played ICs twice in my life and have never played anyone who plays them.
should i bother trying to learn them, or should i go with someone who just has less of a disadvantage against the terrible three like the good Doctor?

[and per se Andy]

I do not believe in this concept at all, but that is a really pretty chart! I actually said "ooh" when I saw it.

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

I think that Peach definatly does far better against more people. My friend is always arguing that Peach counters Marth because at like 100% only a F-Smash or spike will kill her. she has projectiles and 3rd best recovery in the game. i disagree with this cuz Marth can combo peach far to easily to be countered by her. anyway she definatly does well against samus. a good peach player will always float cancel over any missle cancels and edge guard the bomb recovery with turnips. I also say peach does well against ganon cuz hes too slow can really stop well thrown turnips and can edge guard her well. my point is reconsider the reason peach is the 5th best character in the game she definatly does better against more characters.

[highandmightyjoe]

hello.
first off, thank you for this guide Phanna it kicks ***, keep perfecting it:)



im a ganon main who was looking for an alt for ganon's weaknesses.

when i came here i was surprised to find that ganon only had three disadvantages as my friend is always telling me ganon sucks. (he is just better then me)

question 1:
so why is ganon so low on the tier list? is it that there are so few ganon players? or do they just get knocked out by sheik/falco/fox?

question 2:
i have a thing against space animals, peach, and jiggs. so the only person left that seems to cover ganon's weaknesses is ICs. problem is i have only played ICs twice in my life and have never played anyone who plays them.
should i bother trying to learn them, or should i go with someone who just has less of a disadvantage against the terrible three like the good Doctor?

I am also a Ganon main, and I think that mostly he doesn't need a second. As you can see he has advantages on pretty much everyone who isn't in the top 5, and he does better against those 5 then any of the other non-top tier characters. The reason he is rated so low on the tiers, however, is because that isn't based on how good someone is, its tournament results. There just aren't enough players making great achievements with him at the moment to move him up.

[mood4food77]

ganon is underrated by a lot, when i first coming to this site, people said that ganon was raped by fox and falco, i never believed it because ganon was my best character against them (while my other 2 mains were ICs and doc), he also did the best against sheik for me, i never really fight falcon's so i can't say much there

falcon only has 4 bad match-ups, he's even with marth (if marth didn't have the fair), and has an advantage on peach, considered possibly peach's worst match-up, up there with marth, the link's, and sheik

another thing, he's probably the 6th easiest character to use in the game once you can use l'cancelling (sheik, peach, marth, falco and jiggs are easier to use) but like the rest of the eaiser characters to use, he is incredibly hard to bring up to tournament ability setting him back

ganon should move up, i feel right under samus, where he's about the same as ICs, falcon, and samus, where doc, mario, and jiggs really don't do so well against upper tiered characters, jiggs is only good against peach and the marios have fox and falco, other than that, the rest of the characters are sometimes considered counterpick characters to those 3

and yes, ganon is faster than he was supposed to be

[Wak]

I think you should have a less big amount of different square's color... It becomes too hard to set a good chart if you try to make it too precise.

I think you should have 5 - 7 different colors:

-~counters
-~fair advantage
-~advantage
-~even
-~disavantage
-~fair disavantage
-~gets countered by

[1048576]

more precise>less precise. I'd rather know that super wavedash must be executed on frames 41 and 42 after dropping a bomb than know that you have to wait about two-thirds of a second.

[ChozenOne]

.. So when's this getting updated??

[N64]

Pikachu even with Ganon.

The more I play this matchup the more this seems to be true. Pika's main disadvantages in this fight are the chain grab and how fast he can die from fair/bairs. Ganon's chaingrab, however, is kinda awkward against pika. Pika can crouch under the inital grab, and if he does get grabbed I'm fairly certain he can DI out of the chain around 50ish%.

What Pika has going for him is his aerial priority, overall speed, versatile recovery, and ability to edgeguard ganon. Ganon's game (from my experience) relies mostly on shffl bair/fairs, tech chasing throws to dair/fairs, and uair/ftilt edgeguards. As a fast character, pika can bait fairs and ftilts, then run in and jc usmash or grab. Pika's uair and nair outprioritize or come out faster than most of ganon's aerials, which are his big gun in the fight. He's also fairly good at comboing ganon in the air. Pika can edgeguard ganon a lot easier than vice versa. Uair spikes are pretty brutal against ganon's recovery, and work at any percentage. After a uair, Pika is free to chase ganon off the edge farther than ganon can recover and continue to uair him or just knock him back a bit more with other aerials. Also, dsmash near the edge can catch and usually kill any non-sweetspotting ganon, and ftilt and fsmash work decently well too. Conversely, pika usually has numerous options of recovery due to the properties of his upB, so he can't be easily gimped by ganon's uair pseudo-spike edgeguard, or otherwise easily edgeguarded. If the Pika stays below Ganon, watches for grabs, shffl'd aerials, and the occasional ftilt, and is smart about his recovery, it becomes a pretty even matchup.

[phanna]

.. So when's this getting updated??
I'll see if I can do it this weekend.

[Hazygoose]

I think you should have a less big amount of different square's color... It becomes too hard to set a good chart if you try to make it too precise.

I think you should have 5 - 7 different colors:

-~counters
-~fair advantage
-~advantage
-~even
-~disavantage
-~fair disavantage
-~gets countered by

i agree. plus, the less specific it is, the less complaints you'll get :p
this is a great thing, btw, phanna, thanks for making it.

[ChozenOne]

I'll see if I can do it this weekend.
Good Man. Phanna.. do you want me to give you my estimated values for Jiggs matchups??

[phanna]

Good Man. Phanna.. do you want me to give you my estimated values for Jiggs matchups??
Sure, that'd help a lot to take into consideration for the next update, which, by the way, looks like it'll have to be tomorrow evening since I just got back from playing racquetball and am going out to the movies now

[ChozenOne]

Alright.. Give me like 30 mins...

[ChozenOne]

Here it goes good sir. I think you're just going to have to trust me.. Reasoning will take hours.

First on a 1-10 scale.. just so you see what i'm deriving my values from.

Fox-10
Falco-9.5
Shiek-9
Marth-7.5
Peach-8.5
C Falcon-8
IC's-6
Samus-6
Doc-7.5
Puff-5
Mario-6
Ganon-8
Link-7.5
Luigi- 6
DK-3
Roy-6
Y. Link-8.5
Picachu-8
Yoshi-4
Zelda-8
G&W-6
Ness-6
Bowser-2
Kirby-4
Pichu-7
MewTwo-4

Now to the match thingy...

Fox (5) -- Jiggly (1)
Falco (5) -- Jiggly (2)
Shiek (5) -- Jiggly (2)
Marth (5) -- Jiggly (3)
Peach (5) -- Jiggly (3)
Falcon (5) -- Jiggly (3)
IC's (5) -- Jiggly (4)
Samus (5) -- Jiggly (4)
Doc (5) -- Jiggly (3)
Puff (5) -- Jiggly (5)
Mario (5) -- Jiggly (4)
Ganon (5) -- Jiggly (3)
Link (5) -- Jiggly (3)
Luigi (5) -- Jiggly (4)
DK (3) -- Jiggly (5) *finally
Roy (5) -- Jiggly (4)
Y. Link (5) -- Jiggly (2)
Pikachu (5) -- Jiggly (3)
Yoshi (4) -- Jiggly (5)
Zelda (5) -- Jiggly (3)
G&W (5) -- Jiggly (4)
Ness (5) -- Jiggly (4)
Bowser (2) -- Jiggly (5)
Kirby (4) -- Jiggly (5)
Pichu (5) -- Jiggly (3)
MewTwo (4) -- Jiggly (5)

That should be everything.

[phish-it]

Tell me why you say Jigglypuff is bad against Mario?

[ChozenOne]

I'm assuming you understand why Doc does well against Jiggs. Mario cannot kill with Fair, however his Fsmash has more range, Jiggs falls into the same combos she does against Doc, and Mario has that little extra recovery [which helps quite a bit].

[Magus420]

You really think it's like:

----------------
Advantage
----------------
DK
Yoshi
Bowser
Kirby
Mewtwo

----------------
Even
----------------
Jiggs

----------------
Disadvantage
----------------
(Everyone else)

Wouldn't that make Jiggs like... low/bottom tier or something by default?

[ChozenOne]

Yes. This is really what i think it's like. Jigg's strength is the fact that she can get KO's very quickly, however she dies quickly, even with amazing DI.

Magus.. you know for a fact that all of the persons above her give her alot of trouble. Shouldn't bad top tier matchups make her mid tier?? She too good at what she does.

[OneWingSephiroth]

Hmm, it's interesting, however just from deriving by the first page it confuses me, Shiek overall seems to have the best matches, just look at her pile, like half of it is shaded in blue, however she's #3 because she's only got from what I've seen...3 bad matches, against Falco, IC's and Fox, the rest are either 5 and up, and half of them are 7+ in her favor...so I'm just curious, if this ranking chart is so, how's Fox and Falco higher placed than her in the rankings...shouldn't it be #1 for the person who's got the overall best points.

Because in Japan they used a Point scale like this with SFIII 3S and the person with the most points who happened to be Yun was #1, in the point scale on the first post, Shiek has the most with 186 Points (I would assume that A would mean 10 points so yeah), with Falco 2nd with 175 points while Fox would have a close 171.

So again, any explanation, because I've never seen a scaling of a character who had the best points overall, who then is not #1 overall, to me that doesn't make any sense.

I guess all of this is void however if ChozenOne's is the "new" ranking system.

[ToP CaT]

yep shes only top tier in teams, actual 1on1 i guess shes not very good

edit ya, according to this shiek is #1 overall, i think the tier list are made basing the top characters off of each other and not the rest of the cast which is retarted because everyone is used atleast some, so clean this **** up and make shiek #1 overall and make it snappy.

[ChozenOne]

When i SBR made the new tier list they took into account not only matchups, but also character potential. A Jigglypuff with a "perfect rest" would be quite the force to be recogned with. A Falco that could do infinite JC shines at will.. a fox the same.. ect.

[Magus420]

Trouble yes I agree, but not quite that much along with more than 2/3 of the people below as well.

My list would look something like:

2 - Fox (5) -- Jiggly (2)
4 - Falco (5) -- Jiggly (4)
3 - Sheik (5) -- Jiggly (3)
3 - Marth (5) -- Jiggly (3)
5 - Peach (5) -- Jiggly (5)
4 - Falcon (5) -- Jiggly (4)
4 - IC's (5) -- Jiggly (4)
5 - Samus (5) -- Jiggly (5)
4 - Doc (5) -- Jiggly (4)
5 - Puff (5) -- Jiggly (5)
6 - Mario (4) -- Jiggly (5)
5 - Ganon (5) -- Jiggly (5)
4 - Link (5) -- Jiggly (4)
5 - Luigi (5) -- Jiggly (5)
7 - DK (3) -- Jiggly (5)
6 - Roy (4) -- Jiggly (5)
4 - Y. Link (5) -- Jiggly (4)
3 - Pikachu (5) -- Jiggly (3)
7 - Yoshi (3) -- Jiggly (5)
7 - Zelda (3) -- Jiggly (5)
6 - G&W (4) -- Jiggly (5)
7 - Ness (3) -- Jiggly (5)
8 - Bowser (2) -- Jiggly (5)
8 - Kirby (2) -- Jiggly (5)
6 - Pichu (4) -- Jiggly (5)
8 - MewTwo (2) -- Jiggly (5)

[Mogwai]

I'm by no means a jiggly expert, but magus' numbers look about identicle to how I'd rate Jiggly's matchups, though I'd probably put bowser at a 9. I mean, you seriously hit just about anything on him and you can combo it into rest with little to no trouble. I'm guessing that I probably underrate fortress in this matchup, but it just seems terrible for bowser.

[OneWingSephiroth]

When i SBR made the new tier list they took into account not only matchups, but also character potential. A Jigglypuff with a "perfect rest" would be quite the force to be recogned with. A Falco that could do infinite JC shines at will.. a fox the same.. ect.

I don't think that's a way that should be tiered though because if we where to base character potential then in alot of other fighting games not just SSBM the tier/ranking system would also be completely different.

In Marvel vs. Capcom 2, if you could perfectly lock down Ouroboros Trap with Strider/Doom it would be impossible to get out of once it's got you in lockdown, and Strider would always build a full meter everysingle time, and if this was infact true, Strider/Doom would be Top Tier already and also someone like Magneto has the potential to kill any character within the game in 3 seconds if the player could do perfect resets, however since nobody can do that, he's still considered #3 best overall, he'd be #1 otherwise. Or if Makoto was played perfectly she can 100% stun everysingle character all the time.

To me, including a character potential makes it vague almost in a sense like theory fighting, like a "Well if the player could do this perfectly then "insert character name" would be the best kind of thing. I still don't agree on that chart if Shiek has the most pts but is only placed at #3, she should be #1 then with Falco at #2 while Fox is #3 judging from the points derived from the chart.

[ChozenOne]

Trouble yes I agree, but not quite that much along with more than 2/3 of the people below as well.

My list would look something like:

2 - Fox (5) -- Jiggly (2)
4 - Falco (5) -- Jiggly (4)
3 - Sheik (5) -- Jiggly (3)
3 - Marth (5) -- Jiggly (3)
5 - Peach (5) -- Jiggly (5)
4 - Falcon (5) -- Jiggly (4)
4 - IC's (5) -- Jiggly (4)
5 - Samus (5) -- Jiggly (5)
4 - Doc (5) -- Jiggly (4)
5 - Puff (5) -- Jiggly (5)
6 - Mario (4) -- Jiggly (5)
5 - Ganon (5) -- Jiggly (5)
4 - Link (5) -- Jiggly (4)
5 - Luigi (5) -- Jiggly (5)
7 - DK (3) -- Jiggly (5)
6 - Roy (4) -- Jiggly (5)
4 - Y. Link (5) -- Jiggly (4)
3 - Pikachu (5) -- Jiggly (3)
7 - Yoshi (3) -- Jiggly (5)
7 - Zelda (3) -- Jiggly (5)
6 - G&W (4) -- Jiggly (5)
7 - Ness (3) -- Jiggly (5)
8 - Bowser (2) -- Jiggly (5)
8 - Kirby (2) -- Jiggly (5)
6 - Pichu (4) -- Jiggly (5)
8 - MewTwo (2) -- Jiggly (5)
Alright Magus.. let the debate begin.

2 - Fox (5) -- Jiggly (2). Fox is the hardest matchup Jigglypuff can possibly face. And you can get raped... hard. Missing a rest, Usmash, Laser camping, ect. This counter is almost as bad as IC's v. Peach. almost... therefore Fox (5) -- Jiggly (1)

4 - Falco (5) -- Jiggly (4). For Fox i guess it's possible to say 5-2.. but not for Falco. A good Falco that knows how to DI, and knows how to spam lasers and use their Dair is as hard if not harder than a good Fox. The only that that makes this easier is that Falco's recovery=rock in water. therefore Falco (5) -- Jiggly (2)

3 - Sheik (5) -- Jiggly (3) fine

3 - Marth (5) -- Jiggly (3) fine

5 - Peach (5) -- Jiggly (5). Not so much. Peach clearly has the advantage here. Neither of you die, but getting a KO on a campy peach is one of the hardest things of my life. You have Bair, Fair, and Fsmash; she has Fair, Nair, DashAtk, ect. She lives longer, and kills you @ lower %. It's that simple.. and the fact that she can turnip camp you, pull stickfaces, and bombs... therefore Peach (5) -- Jiggly (3)

4 - Falcon (5) -- Jiggly (4) fine.. i would prefer 5-3 due to Dthrow knee.. but i'll take what i can get..

5 - Samus (5) -- Jiggly (5) sure.. it's almost even.. but it's definitly in Samus's favor if anyones therefore i said 5-4..

4 - Doc (5) -- Jiggly (4). Whatever you rank Falcon is what you rank Doc. They're the same in my book. Dthrow --> Fair, ect. therefore 5-3

5 - Puff (5) -- Jiggly (5). I totally disagree.. Puff rapes Jiggs... this should be 5-0

6 - Mario (4) -- Jiggly (5). Mario is alittle worth against Jiggs in comparison to Doc.. therefore -1 to whatever Doc's score is.. no Fair... sorry Ph.D boy.. therefore 5-4

5 - Ganon (5) -- Jiggly (5). Don't miss a rest.. or get hit more than 4 times.. or play on a small stage.. ect. therefore 5-3

4 - Link (5) -- Jiggly (4). I heard that King feels that link is almost a Jiggly counter.. but i personally havn't experienced that.. therefore i said 5-3.. but 5-4 is also ok.

5 - Luigi (5) -- Jiggly (5). fine.

7 - DK (3) -- Jiggly (5). fine.

6 - Roy (4) -- Jiggly (5). I disagree.. just for the reason that Missed Rest = Reverse UpB from Roy = Instant Death.. and Fsmash is nasty. ie- 5-4

4 - Y. Link (5) -- Jiggly (4). No. When a good younglink camps you things get very rough, very quickly.. I'll compromise, and say 5-3

3 - Pikachu (5) -- Jiggly (3). meh.

7 - Yoshi (3) -- Jiggly (5). fine.

7 - Zelda (3) -- Jiggly (5). You may play RyoYaksa, but i play Doll. The Electric shoe is too good. and much like gannon low % KO's are her specialty.. 5-4 at best.

6 - G&W (4) -- Jiggly (5). fine.

7 - Ness (3) -- Jiggly (5). electric shoes.. but i don't really care about this one..

8 - Bowser (2) -- Jiggly (5). yup.

8 - Kirby (2) -- Jiggly (5). i don't feel like Jiggs rapes kirby that badly.. ie 3-5.

6 - Pichu (4) -- Jiggly (5). Usmash is quite nasty. quite nasty. i say 5-4.. at best.

8 - MewTwo (2) -- Jiggly (5). what eve..

Good Day Sir.

[ChozenOne]

I don't think that's a way that should be tiered though because if we where to base character potential then in alot of other fighting games not just SSBM the tier/ranking system would also be completely different.

In Marvel vs. Capcom 2, if you could perfectly lock down Ouroboros Trap with Strider/Doom it would be impossible to get out of once it's got you in lockdown, and Strider would always build a full meter everysingle time, and if this was infact true, Strider/Doom would be Top Tier already and also someone like Magneto has the potential to kill any character within the game in 3 seconds if the player could do perfect resets, however since nobody can do that, he's still considered #3 best overall, he'd be #1 otherwise. Or if Makoto was played perfectly she can 100% stun everysingle character all the time.

To me, including a character potential makes it vague almost in a sense like theory fighting, like a "Well if the player could do this perfectly then "insert character name" would be the best kind of thing. I still don't agree on that chart if Shiek has the most pts but is only placed at #3, she should be #1 then with Falco at #2 while Fox is #3 judging from the points derived from the chart.
I'm not a B-Roomer.. if you really feel this way then buy a premium membership, and argue with them.

[tarheeljks]

@Sephiroth: there has all ready been discussion of why Sheik isn't #1 even though her matchups are the best up and down the board. i think it's around page 30. it basically boils down to the notion that each matchup is not equally significant.

[OneWingSephiroth]

@Sephiroth: there has all ready been discussion of why Sheik isn't #1 even though her matchups are the best up and down the board. i think it's around page 30. it basically boils down to the notion that each matchup is not equally significant.

I'm really not in the entire mood to look through the pages and read what's been said, so if you or anyone could post it up here, I would appreciate it. I'm not trying to be rude or arrogant, it's just that having the better ratio in matchups should usually mean better character, not the otherway around. Also, if matchup's aren't significant then why have a match-up chart then?

- Peace -

[ChozenOne]

They're not significan't b/c no players that place in tournaments play those characters. The Tier List is meant for tournament play.. not casual. Sure Shiek can CG like 3/4 characters in the game.. but can she Uthrow-->Usmash Falco.. or CG Fox.. or Uthrow-->Uair everyone.. or WaveShine Peach/Falcon/ect.. you get the idea.

[phanna]

I'm going to bed now. You both make good points; the more of an agreement you can come to, the more it will help out the next update.

[Simna ibn Sind]

I ...disagree with the Ness part on the first post...

for one thing, Ness does better vs. Falco than vs. Fox and Ness does better than 1-4 vs. Fox

[OneWingSephiroth]

They're not significan't b/c no players that place in tournaments play those characters. The Tier List is meant for tournament play.. not casual. Sure Shiek can CG like 3/4 characters in the game.. but can she Uthrow-->Usmash Falco.. or CG Fox.. or Uthrow-->Uair everyone.. or WaveShine Peach/Falcon/ect.. you get the idea.

That makes no sense, almost nobody plays as the Bears in Tekken, however they are not insignificant in anyway. Remember, judging from the charts, she overall has better matchups than any character within the game...so how is she not #1? Tournament or whatnot, that's still irrelevant, if Fox and Falco where "indeed" better, then shouldn't they have better matchups then her?

In SFIII 3S, Yun is overall better than everyone, is because he has better matchups than everyone within the game, his only difficult matchups are Ken and Makoto. Steve is considered #1 in 5.0, because he has better matchups than everyone in the game his tough matchups would be Nina, Feng and Law, and guess what, half of the cast are not significant either because no players that place in tournaments play half of them as well in both games. Seriously how many people play Sean in 3S? How many people play the Bears or Lei-Wulong in Tekken5? This however does not make them insignificant is ranking characters though.

To me this list makes no sense, to how a character who overall averages better than everyone else in matchups is placed at #3.

Also, your statement about Waveshine, Usmash, etc, etc, sure those are great/excellent and all, however when you talk about that, your basically going back to stating about character potential again. Because if those where such a huge benefactor, then shouldn't Fox and Falco's matchups ultimately be stronger than Shieks overall then?

I can very say, well you know what, Storm doesn't have the potential to kill off an opponent off of one connected c.lk or tri-jump attack like Magneto, so therefore "technically" Magneto is or should be #1, however matchup wise, Storm>Magneto, which is why Storm is #1 while Mags is at #3, nobody can do it perfectly, thus the reason why "character potential" should be ruled out.

The only way I can agree on it is if Fox and Falco had better matchups than Shiek, however that isn't the case from the chart that is given to us. 186 points, compared to 175 points compared to 171 points...it just doesn't add up and isn't correct. Now unless there is a new chart which shows that Fox and Falco does indeed have better matchups overall, then Shiek should still be #1.