All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[Mogwai]

Sry I think I wasn't clear enough in my explanations... I always considered that a tier list based on a character's strentgh/weaknesses wouldn't be the same as a tier list based on a character's matchups. Furthermore, a tier list based on tournament viability would be another thing again... what I wanted to point out in my original post is that you could make an infinite amount of tier lists, it's just that you have to choose how you're going to rank the chars.

In my words, a tier list based on a character's strentgh/weakness (or attributes) would rank characters based on the facts that we currently know about their KOing ability, recovery and other stuff that would help them win a matchup.

Exemple: Fox is one of the best characters because he's fast, can deal damage, and has some good KO moves. Peach is a good character, but we could say that Fox is better because he is faster and he has better KO ability... she has better recovery though.

^^The main problem with that kind of list though would be to determine which attributes are more important in order to achieve victory. A list like this should be strickly based on facts though, like frame data and stuff...

On the other hand, a matchup chart like one Phanna made is created by comparing the attributes of 2 chars, and by estimating who should win the matchup if they're controlled by evenly skilled players.

So basically adding the scores up for each char's matchup and ranking the chars accordingly would make a character matchup based tier list, but not an attribute based tier list... even though the outcome of character matchups are estimated with attributes.

Kinda tired of typing... lemme know what you think of this before we discuss about a ''Tournament viability'' type of tier list...

OK, you've said it yourself, it's tough and dare I say subjective to determine which attributes are more important. So if measuring frame rates and such statistics can't be effective in a "strengths and weaknesses" teir list, and neither can a matchup chart such as this one, then how can something like this be assembled in such a way that it uses less subjectivity than a tournament viabilty teir list such as the one assembled now? I personally think that there's no way to completely eliminate subjectivity, or even eliminate more than was used in the latest itteration of the teir list. Even if we were to do something such as classify tournaments as large, medium, and small and then give each characters points for placing top 3,5, or 10 or whatever in each type of tournament, there would still be debate such as, "OMG Pittsburgh tournies shouldn't count for that much, they all suck," or whatever. You can't get an online community such as this to aggree on any type of concrete system here because they don't have a very wide range of knowledge on how good each other are in the global scope.

I could be wrong, and feel free to correct me if I am, but objectivity in teir list is nothing more than an ideal that we can only hope to grasp at.

So assuming my correctness there, then how do you differentiate between the multiple teir lists you've proposed? A strengths and weaknesses list would have to be just as subjective as a tournament list, and I really don't see how they could possibly be different. I mean, say shiek is a clear #1 on this strengths weaknesses chart, then why do spacies tend to beat her and just generally do better in tournaments? I don't think such a list makes sense or serves any real purpose. For that matter, I think the importance of debating how the teir list should be put together and whether multiples should exist needs to be put on hold for a second to determine what the purpose of the teir list is.

As far as I'm concerned, a teir list's purpose is to display character's relative power level, and for me, power is directly related to how well the character does in tournaments. I can't see what possible purpose any other type of list would serve. So if tournament viability isn't how you see the purpose of teir lists, what purpose should they serve?

[BigRick]

OK, you've said it yourself, it's tough and dare I say subjective to determine which attributes are more important. So if measuring frame rates and such statistics can't be effective in a "strengths and weaknesses" teir list, and neither can a matchup chart such as this one, then how can something like this be assembled in such a way that it uses less subjectivity than a tournament viabilty teir list such as the one assembled now? I personally think that there's no way to completely eliminate subjectivity, or even eliminate more than was used in the latest itteration of the teir list. Even if we were to do something such as classify tournaments as large, medium, and small and then give each characters points for placing top 3,5, or 10 or whatever in each type of tournament, there would still be debate such as, "OMG Pittsburgh tournies shouldn't count for that much, they all suck," or whatever. You can't get an online community such as this to aggree on any type of concrete system here because they don't have a very wide range of knowledge on how good each other are in the global scope.

I could be wrong, and feel free to correct me if I am, but objectivity in teir list is nothing more than an ideal that we can only hope to grasp at.

So assuming my correctness there, then how do you differentiate between the multiple teir lists you've proposed? A strengths and weaknesses list would have to be just as subjective as a tournament list, and I really don't see how they could possibly be different. I mean, say shiek is a clear #1 on this strengths weaknesses chart, then why do spacies tend to beat her and just generally do better in tournaments? I don't think such a list makes sense or serves any real purpose. For that matter, I think the importance of debating how the teir list should be put together and whether multiples should exist needs to be put on hold for a second to determine what the purpose of the teir list is.

As far as I'm concerned, a teir list's purpose is to display character's relative power level, and for me, power is directly related to how well the character does in tournaments. I can't see what possible purpose any other type of list would serve. So if tournament viability isn't how you see the purpose of teir lists, what purpose should they serve?

Now that things are clearer for each other, we seem to agree on plenty of more stuff now. I can only approve with what you said in Paragraph 2. Indeed, total objectivity is inacessible, but it should be also our objective to to be as objective as possible.

Also, there is a way to estimate the amount of subjectivity between each kind of Tier list that could be made. You would just have to point out how much human decision was a factor in the elaboration of the list in question. One of the most objective list possible would be a Tier list that would be 100% based on tournament rankings, but this leads to a very important point that you brought that I neglected before...

And that point would be, the purpose of the Tier list. Come to think of it, would a perfectly accurate Tier list completely based on tournament results would be useful, even though it is totally objective... only to some extent. Would a tier list that ranks the chars by their weight would give a real idea about the characters' ''power levels'' as you said it... not at all.

So I guess this kinda comes to what the SSBM community truly needs. Do we need more straight, less useful facts (traditional fighter tier list), or more adapted, more useful facts (our current tier list)? Finally, I guess there's nothing wrong in trying to make something more useful for others, so I'd say you are right on this one.

But now, if we think that the Tier list should be about tournament viability, in what way do you think it should put together in order to be as accurate and as objective as possible. I guess Phanna's chart has a part into this, or else we really shouldn't be talking about this in this thread... hahaha

Going 2 sleep, cya

[Gimpyfish62]

bowser is worse =0

there is also a reason why ness is considered to have one of the best air games, in the game

at least ness can hold up against some of the high tier characters unlike bowser

false

both characters are terrible wastes of time though, if you wanted to ACTUALLY be good that is :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

[Magus420]

yea peach is fast, but is she able to perform 8 seperate moves in 10 seconds, i don't think soActually, Peach is able to n-air 42 times in under 10 seconds :upsidedow

[Gimpyfish62]

haha somebody forgot float cancel XD

and ithink you forgot the actual jumping animation frames... those numbers aren't right XD

[Fonz]

6 frames to jump, 1 frame to start floating, 3 to nair, 4 landing? Not sure if those are exactly right (the floating part), but 14 frames sounds close enough =P

More than 4/second =0

[Magus420]

You mean what I said?

1-5: Jump
6: 1st air frame
7: Float starts
8: N-air starts
9: Float ends
10: Fastfall begins, n-air hits
11-14: Landlag

(14 x 42)/60 = 9.8s

EDIT: Looks like Fonz FCed his post and I didn't :laugh:

[Simna ibn Sind]

its in speed overall, not any particular one area that ness is the third fastest...and im serious

and that ness/falco/fox matchup still needs changing

[CREA]

On a completely irrelevant note, you should make an All Characters Match-up Chart that lists good and bad stages for each character. :laugh:

[mood4food77]

i guess i gotta bring out the rape of the uairs soon

i've done 7 uairs in 3 seconds with ness, just not recorded yet

ness also does travel faster on the ground than most of the characters in the game, and isn't he one of the 5 fastest air characters in the game too

[phish-it]

What does the term fast even mean nowadays?

[Gimpyfish62]

ness isn't fast, and isn't good.

why is there so much ness discussion going on? lol

[Silent Wolf]

PSSSSSSST!
Bowser and Ness are in the same tier.
</refering to certain earlier posts>

ness isnt 3rd fastest.
im pretty sure fox/falcon/sheik/falco are faster overall. other characters too.

[Cra$hman]

i heard ness is actually one of the fastest characters in the game if you use l cancelling and shffling

[Gimpyfish62]

what makes you think i said anything positively about bowser here? hes a terrible character, ness is also terrible

XD

[Silent Wolf]

Then so is mewtwo and peach and other characters that can do it.
overall though, hes not, at all.
simna said in no certain area, im sure there is a certain area and its double jump cancelled shffld aerials. wee. ness sucks. badly.

[mood4food77]

the other DJers cannot stay as low to the ground as ness and still perform a move, mewtwo might but his moves aren't fast enough, peach and yoshi both start going to the ground if you DJC early, so they cannot perform it as fast as ness, also why ness is the best DJCer in the game

[JFox]

mood4food, this isn't the tier list discussion thread, nor is it the ness character specific thread. Regardless of whether or not you are correct, this isn't the place to be talking about Ness' greatness. If you think he should be better in a specific match up, thats different. But right now, you are taking this thread is a totally different (and really gay) direction.

Speed doesn't necessarily make a character good. You can't simply use his speed as a basis for giving Ness better match ups. You aren't even referring to match ups, you are just go on and on about useless crap.

Not to mention every post I've ever seen you make was totally biased, illogical, an extreme opinion that is always contrary to what everyone has ever believed about theoretical smash, and an utter waste of time that leads to useless squabbling.

So if you are going to give your opinion, at least stay focused on the purpose of this thread...

[Falco&Victory]

Props, kudos, and salutations Phanna. Nice list ftw!
+ rep

[Gimpyfish62]

JFox just owned mood4food hard

[mood4food77]

not every post of mine was illogicial and biased

so what, i'm not supposed to express my opinions, like everyone else is doing

yea, those ness match-ups on fox and falco gotta change, he does much better against them than most of the crew does, like uthrow to 6 or 7 DJC uairs, CT, also he can't be shine comboed by either of them easily too, falco is harder than fox but it's only because of the SHL, will makes approaching him harder, in close quarters, i feel fox is harder in close, but both aren't that bad, i'd say 3-5 for both of them (yea, they still ahve the advantage)

[Mogwai]

pft, how are you gonna to grab a spacie with those tiny little girl arms. Ness gets raped, really hard. I mean, M2 can rape the **** out of spacies too if he grabs them, and so can bowser and yoshi and all sorts of low teir guys. The reason the matchups are so bad isn't because Ness can't wreck a spacy in the right situation, it's that getting that situation is **** near impossible vs. the much faster spacies, especially with Ness's atrocious grab range.

I think Ness users in general highly overrate their boy, no offense. But seriously, most low teir threads arn't filled with talk about how their character is top teir or has so much potential, but Ness threads are just filled with this talk. The game's been around forever, and Ness is yet to be broken, so I'm just getting really tired of hearing how awesome he is if someone could just play him right.

[Mr. Derp]

sorry for not reading to see if this has been talked about , but I think if I read through 40 pages my head wouldve exploded.

anyway, I beleive mewtwos match-ups in general shoud be increased. I think that there was bias and the creator of the chart refered to the tier list in order to make decisions on some of the match-ups he was not too knowledgeable about, not just the mew2 matches. anyways, If a falco is good and a mew2 is good its pretty much even. M2 definitely does not have a zero chance against marth even though its handicaped heavily. A good mew2 can have a decent chance against any character really because he is unpredictable, his mindgames are wierd as heck, and he is seldom used.

edit: actually, I really dont agree with any chaarcter having zero chance, at an even skill level everyone has at least a slight chance.

[ToP CaT]

in my opinion mood4food got ownd, but thats just my opinion

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

yo screw ness y do so many people care hes frikin bottom tier for a reason GET OVER IT!!

EH YO JFOX BUST UM IN THE HEAD AND LEAVE UM RETARDED

and see u at the TSA tourney!!

[virtualgamecafe]

I LIKE NESS AND FOX!!!^^^ >:o

[ToP CaT]

Hes not questioning ness's tier placement, hes only telling him that it doesnt belong here unless its helping the chart

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

yo top cat u just completly reminded me of the show top cat which was a great frikin cartoon. i loved tht show so i give u mad props for dedicating an acount for him. also if u know where i can watch any episodes on like youtube pm me please

[mood4food77]

you can grab a fox, it's not impossible, ness doesn't get raped, yes it's a bad match-up, but it's not that bad, same with falco

also, short sparkles equals free grab on everyone, and his sparkle has a huge range, it stops him from getting completely raped by peach (not sure about sheik though, probably stops it from being 5-0), also, when fox and falco are at high percents and ness having the strongest bthrow in the game helps too, it's not rape, it's not a counter, it's just a soft counter i think, same goes for g&w, just different approach (he probably does better cause of his lower crouch and his manhole)

yea i know i got owned, someone had to snap me back on topic

[JFox]

I didn't want to have to do this...

Disclaimer: This was in no way meant to be insulting to Simna. I'm sorry I had to use this as an example. I think you are a great smasher, and simply lost because this match up sucks. And I know you agree that its a bad match. I simply want to use it to prove a point.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9kmvxPlScjU

If you know how to play Fox vs Ness, its total rape. Notice how Ness can't do anything about being shine spiked. If he tries to protect himself with an attack off edge, he DJC to his death. He has only two directions he can go with his second jump, and from far enough he can only go toward the stage. After being shined out of the second jump, its over for Ness. Even when Zel didn't get the shine spike, he forced Simna into spots where he would get massive damage.

About your silly sparkles, notice how Zelgadis CC the Fair to a shine or Usmash. There goes that option. Also notice how hard a time Ness has getting back on the ground. Zelgadis played it smart and just waited for an Usmash rather than taking his chances with the Uair. Ness can't even go to the ledge for fear of getting gimped since his double jump from the ledge is not reliable, and Zel was going for the shines every time.

Also pay close attention to the amount of times Zelgadis was grabbed. Very few. He protected himself with the shine every time. And when Simna got the grabs, how much damage did it cause? Very little. And Simna had the advantage of being on Final D, a luxury that doesn't usually occur.

Shine combos don't even need to exist. Just waveshine grab Uair. Backthrow(and Fthrow at higher percents) to shine spike near edges.

I'm not even considering the fact that it was a 4 stock. I'm sure Simna probably could have done better, but no more than 2 stock I'm sure. But Zelgadis is not even top. He is good, but imagine what m2k or DJ could do? Ya can't ask for a Ness much better than Simna, and it didn't take the top fox to destroy him. Why? Fox rapes Ness. The match is so unfair, it doesn't take the best to rape.

The only reason people don't see the rape is because they watch ****ty noobs getting owned by Ness Uair juggles and think Ness is good against Fox. But play a Fox that with strong tech skills, shine work, mindgames, and knows how to play the match up. Its rape. End of story. I don't even want to hear it anymore...

[arrowhead]

yeh, so change that ness vs fox to 0 eh?

[Mogwai]

yeh, so change that ness vs fox to 0 eh?

No, that's the wrong course of action too. What JFox is getting at is that it's terrible, really really terrible for Ness, maybe not unwinnable, but no better than it's posted right now. It should be either a 1 or a 2, but what he's trying to say (I think) is that Ness users overrate their character and need to stop trying to skew the numbers because of what they think he's capable of.

[Mankosuki]

how old is that vid?... one of the youtube comments says 2004. :ohwell:

[JFox]

No, that's the wrong course of action too. What JFox is getting at is that it's terrible, really really terrible for Ness, maybe not unwinnable, but no better than it's posted right now. It should be either a 1 or a 2, but what he's trying to say (I think) is that Ness users overrate their character and need to stop trying to skew the numbers because of what they think he's capable of.

Thats exactly what I was saying. In my honest opinion I give it a 2, but a 3 is a decent rating. But don't be totally biased based off one video either, its certainly not a 0.

And yes, its pretty old. But I think if anyone has gotten better since 2004, its the Foxes, not the Ness'. So I doubt the result would be too far off. Especially considering the stage was in Ness' favor as well as the level of play not being at its highest for Fox.

All that video was trying to demonstrate was how theoretically (and in reality) Fox has all of the advantages. The Usmash priority, CC Ness' main offensive options (Fair), shine spikes, speed, and ability to avoid grabs are all on Foxes side. And this is one of the few match ups where Fox has a huge advantage in edgegaurding. Ness' edgegaurd is all mindgames or guess work. Fox's edgegaurd is simple and achievable and pretty much any percent, and easily set up.

[Rapid_Assassin]

Yeah, that video is very old. Old enough that it shouldn't be what you base any argument of which character is better on. However, Fox is still a bad matchup for Ness. But, what exactly do you expect between the best character in the game, and anyone below mid tier? I think 3-5 or 2-5, fox's advantage vs. ness is a good ranking on the matchup, anything better sounds outright dumb. Fox beats Ness overall, but the matchup is still better for Ness than his matchup vs. Marth, Sheik, and Jigglypuff.

Part of the reason why lots of people think that Ness does well on Fox is because they see people like Mofo rape the hell out of noob Fox players. (as in, they don't even get a hit in, let alone a stock off) Or they see videos between Simna and Ender, who probably play each other often enough that it doesn't matter whose character is better because they are so familiar with each other's styles. Keep in mind that character matchups should be based on equally skilled players who are familiar with the matchup, but not each other's particular style from playing each other nonstop.

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

hes right all u frikin ness lovers get over it clearly after his explanation and the video u can tell ness does extremely bad against fox. Ness is not tht good he can be stopped the video is evidence good **** jfox.

From yo numba one FAN!!! XD

[OneWingSephiroth]

Seriously...there is no way any character should get a zero, at the very, very, extreme a 9-1, the ONLY time I've ever seen a 9-1 was T4Jin vs. T4Kuma...you could literally do LS/2,1's all day and Kuma wouldn't be able to dackdash out of it nor even ss it.

I highly doubt that any SSBM matchup is that crippled, but I would say that there will be some pretty darn badmatchups and regardless there is no way a matchup could ever be a 0 period, so long as that character is within the game it should still be winnable not a complete Zero to me is basically saying that you cannot win, there's no hope or prayer, no matter what and you'll always lose 100%.

Onto another note about Link vs. Jigg's...it's a 6-4...however from my own experience of playing against good Jigg's players...Jigg's is a character that I have had such a struggle with when utilizing Link against her, imo I would actually say 7-3 in Jigg's favor, however what is it within that match that makes it a closer 6-4 matchup?

[Mogwai]

I highly doubt that any SSBM matchup is that crippled, but I would say that there will be some pretty darn badmatchups and regardless there is no way a matchup could ever be a 0 period, so long as that character is within the game it should still be winnable not a complete Zero to me is basically saying that you cannot win, there's no hope or prayer, no matter what and you'll always lose 100%.

Onto another note about Link vs. Jigg's...it's a 6-4...however from my own experience of playing against good Jigg's players...Jigg's is a character that I have had such a struggle with when utilizing Link against her, imo I would actually say 7-3 in Jigg's favor, however what is it within that match that makes it a closer 6-4 matchup?

Projectile spam. Jiggs hates projectile spamming, and while she can certainly get around it, it's an effective strategy for Link in this matchup. You can also randomly get Jiggs with your detatched hitbox in the air off a dair of fair that's spaced well. It's definately not good enough to be even for Link, but it's not a match he should be completely outmatched in.

I kinda aggree with what everyone is saying about the 0 matchup thing, except that the way Phanna put it is as an expected result in a tourney match, so if you should win 5% of the games as M2 vs. Marth, it's still much more likely that he'll 5-0 you than you pulling a game out. That being said, I just look at the numbers as a general guideline for how good the matchup is, rather than looking at it as the exact representation of what should/will happen. I know that from the chart creator's perspective, it's good to attatch some meaning to the number for credibility's sake, but in this case, I don't think it should be looked at so literally from a reader's perspective.

[ToP CaT]

Yea i get that, but if your going to say something occurs 5 percent of the time you might as well say it wont happen, no pro m2 will ever beat a pro marth, same with ness and fox, it wont happen, if jesus is sitting on their shoulder they might steal one, but its pretty much 0 % chance

[mood4food77]

i'm pretty sure taj has beaten a few pro marths in some games, and taj isn't consider pro yet, so yes, it is possible

what i'm saying for ness is that he's tied with g&w for fox's worst low tier match-up, am i saying he has an advantage over fox, no, but him and g&w do much better than all other low tier characters (except maybe DK, but it's still pretty bad), so 3-5 for ness seems pretty fair to me