All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[pockyD]

the range on fox's shine is not too big (alright...it's the same range as jigg's rest, roughly)

COME ON .

[Mogwai]

to wesley, i'm not a good fox, i only used him to see how easy it was gimp shine a ness (i only use him to keep my tech skill up anyways), yea i was probably exaggerrating a bit on fox not being able to recover, but do remember tailwhipping can mess up a fox's recovery, so it is dangerous, as why most fox's don't randomly jump out and shine spike, why they prefer bair over teh shine spike (much more trusty), since the range on fox's shine is not too big (alright...it's the same range as jigg's rest, roughly), and just the fact that if he does miss, he's most likely eating ness' PKT2, which can deal a lot of damage in the beginning (i think it's 28%), so yes it may be easy, but it's not the safest choice in the world

and ability to edgegaurd a character doesn't make a match-up, look at ganon for example, i'm pretty sure that in 90% of his match-ups in his favor, he gets edgegaurded easier than his opponents, look at g&w on fox, g&w edgegaurds fox A LOT better than fox edgegaurds g&w, look who has the advantage, so edgegaurding is not a big part of the match-up

Ok, first off, against most characters, you are correct, shine spiking is too risky to be worth using over trusty bair. Ness is an exception. He is very very very easy to shine spike and when you have a 99% chance (that's being generous towards Ness's recovery) to instantly kill them, it's worth it. 2nd off, I never said that that's all there is in this matchup. The rest of it's a rape too. Fox out ranges (with the exception of sparkle), out runs, out grabs, out powers Ness into oblivion. Show me a video of a competent Fox getting beat by Ness and we can reopen discussion here, but I'm honestly done talking about this matchup right now.

[Simna ibn Sind]

That video is playing faster than the game does, not sure how much, but watch something like his PK thunder, which always has the same speed. It's about 20% faster, the whole video is. Not a bad video, but in terms of arguing character speeds, it's important to note the vid isn't gameplay speed.

The speed increase in that video is the same speed increase that is on all recorded game footage that is put online and is less than 10% of an increase. One thing that makes many people think its running even faster than it really is is the fact that the game sounds are turned off. When Ness uses PK Thunder it seems like its all going faster because you didn't Ness yell PK Thunder before doing it...it just came out. The video is slightly faster than normal play, but no faster than any other video.

[N64]

pika gets raped by peach, i learned the hard way.

Peach is one of Pika's best matchups in the higher tiers, behind only captain, ganon, and jiggs. It's still an advantage peach matchup, but I'd put it around 5-4 or 5-3. Probably 5-4.

Also, anyone else think Ganon's even with Pika? Or am I alone in this cause?

[phanna]

Now I could write a whole big story with any matchup, but I think that's rather unneccesary. The matchups I'm listing here are the ones I know all about as I've been playing them for already 2 years or just played them a lot.

Pichu vs Fox:

Your rating: 2
My rating: 3

Pichu vs Falco:

Your rating: 3
My rating: 3 =)

Pichu vs ICs:

Your rating: 0
My rating: 0

Pichu vs Sheik:

Your rating: 2
My rating: 1, just because Chu does decent in this matchup doesn't mean it's actually good.

Pichu vs Marth

Your rating: 1
My rating: 0 . No, just no.

Pichu vs Mewtwo

Your rating: 6
My rating: 4, it's not as good as you might think.

Pichu vs Bowser

Your rating: 4
My rating: 2

That's about it. I'm not making up bull**** here, the information is purely based it on experience (I might be one of the most experienced Pichus in the whole world) and from what I've seen.I'm posting this in the thread because the purpose is to be an open forum, and not just my opinion about other people's opinions :p

I am still planning an update as soon as I get the time.

[ToP CaT]

Umm ya, that may be fair, idk pika rapes ganon in some cases but ya, ganon fair kills at like 10 percent lolz so maybe ya.

[mood4food77]

i don't think pika vs. ganon is even, i feel it's in ganon's advantage only because of the huge difference in range, ganon can keep up with pika's speed and he kills pika at low percents, pika can do nasty combo's no ganon but it's a pain getting in without taking a bair, i'd would say 5-3, 5-4 in ganon's favor


ness and fox have about the same overall reach, i think ness may have a little more, ness' up b is just as fast and goes just as far as fox's up b, fox doesn't completely rape ness, fox's grab reach is pretty crappy too, but not as much as ness' is, fox has the running speed to make up for it, ness doesn't have the same running speed, ness can also edgegaurd fox better than fox can edgegaurd ness, the only way to shine spike a ness is to get him during his 2nd jump or to do it during his up b, before he hits himself with his PKT, yes it's bad for ness, but it's not as bad as your making it out to be, also ness grabs are much better than fox's grabs, fox only can juggle with uthrow (he can with dthrow, but not as reliable), ness can kill with bthrow, techchase with dthrow, CT with uthrow that will eventually lead to uair rape, and he can set up an edgegaurd with his fthrow (fox can, but it's a lot harder to do it)

overall reach comparison, this isn't 100% accurate, but i think it's pretty close:
fox has longer range in all tilts
ness has longer range in all smashes
ness bair < fox's bair
ness' fair > fox's fair
ness' dair > fox's dair
ness' uair < fox's uair
ness' nair < fox's nair

ness' up b = fox's up b
ness forward b < fox's forward b
cannot compare down and neutral b attacks (ness' down b has a bigger surrounding area than fox's but fox's hurts while ness' doesn't, their neutral b's are completely different, ness' covers more area while fox's is more long range)

ness' grab reach < fox's grab reach

and basically, that's it, they're about the same, i said before that the list isn't 100% accurate, but it's pretty close i feel, it looks like fox has a slight edge though...so what i said before is false, will some ness pro check that out to see if i'm correct

well, this match-up i would still consider it 5-3 instead of the 5-2 or 5-1 that you stated (wesley), ness can pull off comboes that rape fox, but fox can do the same, also remember ness is one of the characters that cannot be comboed following the shine (luigi, ICs, marth, doc, and mario are the others) (they can if they don't DI up or away, except luigi, no way comboing him...unless he crouch cancels)

the same thing can also apply to falco except falco has more reach and is much harder to approach (stupid SHL) but ness' comboes last longer on falco than they do on fox

i'm not sure about ness vs. falcon though, i'd consider it even but i'll get yelled at from both sides, it's not rape, it's winnable (i did it a while ago) but it's probably about the same as the spacies, 5-3 in falcon's favor

now discuss

[ToP CaT]

I guess your not giving up on this ness thing huh?

[mood4food77]

not until everyone comes to an agreement..then no, too many fox users, too little ness users, just because ness is low tier does not mean he'll get raped, it's an advantage, not rape


we could come up with terminology, like this:
gets raped: 0-5
gets countered: 1-5
strong disadvantage: 2-5
disadvantage: 3-5
slight disadvantage: 4-5
even: 5-5
slight advantage: 5-4
advantage: 5-3
strong advantage: 5-2
counters: 5-1
rapes: 5-0



something along those lines, agree or no?

[Simna ibn Sind]

I said this before: Ness does better vs. Falco then Ness does vs. Fox....and Ness vs. Fox is no worse than 5-3 in Fox's favor

[mood4food77]

i always found fox easier only cause of his lack of SHL and his reach is barely better than ness (too bad you're on the other side of the US, i need ness help, no one is good with ness around here...but me)

how is falco easier, because of his lack of shinespike and his recovery?

is a DJC fair to grab easy to get out of...i don' think it is?

[thatsmybutta]

mr game and watch beats fox no joke if you know how to chain grab and utilize his nair.

[mood4food77]

no, fox wins, it's 5-3 in fox's favor, g&w is really easy to kill

[Peaches]

G+W can't really chain grab Fox iirc.

Upthrow to upair owns G+W

[SwiftBass]

first of all Ness vs Fox IMO is one of the more lopsided matchups.

shines range roughly equal to rest is a joke right?

As a fox main I can careless where Ness is postioning himself when trying to do that slow a$$ pk thunder. First off, if he doesnt position for a sweetspot he's getting shined or wont reach. there are a few situations where i've had to use a double jump but rarely and a competent fox should def be able to react and shine ness with ease in a single jump. if i see that i have to use a double jump it generally tells me that i can hop on that edge and watch ness fall to his death. Thus tail whipping is NOT dangerous at all, not in any sense because fox with a Dj will probly get back on the edge faster than ness

He is also one of the easiest characters to edge guard, hence making ur previous statement false about edgeguarding NOT making a matchup false, trust me i garantee if C falcon had a better recovery(not able to be edge guarded so much) he would have much better matchups. Another example is falco not moving to #2 until this year. So yeah edgeguarding/recovery counts alot(recovery and edge guarding go hand in hand).


Off the edge guarding topic, Ness loses in the Air......horribly, its not close whatsoever. Ness's startup for aerials are slower and MOST importantly, his jump is WAY slower than foxes so he will almost never have aerial priority. the DJ cancelled Bair is ness's only hope and a tight ground game would help alot, but aerial is absolutely the worst part of the Ness vs Fox matchup.

face my fox and get Fullhop Naired >shine for 4 stocks straight, then tell me how the aerial match up is.

[mood4food77]

ness has the best air game, he beats everyone there, only peach comes close, and uair rapes the crap outta fox

and yes, shine's range roughly equals that of jiggs rest (jiggs body is bigger than fox's, but the shine makes them about the same size)

if you lived by me, i'd do it, i'll take your fox with my ness, trust me, it won't be easy

[pockyD]

to be fair, djc fair would probably bust up a conventional shfflc nair approach and if you have no adaptation skills, kill you 5% at a time

but ness has nothing else while fox has a whole plethora of other options, which is why i feel the matchup is bad


on another note, comparing the characters move-wise is just stupid... even mewtwo's fair is significantly better than fox's, so is mewtwo a better character? fox's fair is rarely if EVER used so it shouldn't be used in ANY matchup comparison

[mood4food77]

one move doesn't determine a match-up (except in bowser's case, and probably kirby's and zelda's)

ness has the best air game, but he himself is a crappy character

look at mewtwo, his overall moveset is AMAZING, it competes with fox, falco, sheik, and marth's overall move set, but he himself is a crappy character, roy's sweetspot screws him over

one thing does not determine a character, it takes everything into account, look at g&w, this is the first tier list where g&w is not among the bottom 5 characters in the game, he's moving up now, he moved up past ness (didn't see that one coming, now i see why)

mewtwo's fair is way better than fox's fair, fox and falco have the worst fairs in the game (sadly...)

ness can compete with fox, but it's still tough, people underestimate the potential of a low tier character, they see low tier and they think bad, only kirby is (sorry, must be said) but they hold some decency against high tiers, and are most of the time, odd fights for the high tiers (how often do you fight a ness...honostly)

why is g&w so bad against mario? i know for a fact mario loses his dthrow in this match-up

[phish-it]

and yes, shine's range roughly equals that of jiggs rest (jiggs body is bigger than fox's, but the shine makes them about the same size)

Fox's shine should be about the range of jigglypuff's rest but it isn't, definitely isn't.

Mood4Food I'd really like to see how Ness does so well against Fox, hopefully you can show me at the Nanuet tourney coming up.

[pockyD]

explain how ness would beat marth air-to-air, air-to-ground, or ground-to-air

[SwiftBass]

fox's fullhop Nair > Ness period.

I wont even need to SHFL. I used to fight Ness's back home and then they stopped trying, i wonder why.

[mood4food77]

phish it, i won't use him in tournament, he's not consistant enough for me, but i'll do it in friendlies

good luck getting a full-hop nair on ness

ness won't beat marth, sword is too good, only sword user ness has a problem with, but overall, ness has the best air game, fast moves, fast air game, great juggling options, can virtually use every move in his air arsenal (only falcon can really do that too...) marth can only approach with fair from the air, ness can use fair, bair, or uair, marth's fair relies pretty much around his fair, ness revoloves around all his moves for the most part, hence why he is considered to have the best air game

[pockyD]

no that's just stupid

having 5 good air moves is irrelevant, as long as you have all your bases covered by even just a few moves, it's fine (and plus, what answer does ness have for someone below him? let's wind up for 10 seconds and then try to hit with a crappy dair)

just explain to me once again, how is ness's air game any better than marth's again? how about ganon's? falcon's?

even by your (ridiculous) criteria, i'd still take someone like luigi's instead

edit: approach with uair? maybe there's your problem; if anyone gets hit by a uair approach they are completely retarded and it's probably that you have lousy competition if that's working for you

[Mogwai]

ness has the best air game, but he himself is a crappy character

look at mewtwo, his overall moveset is AMAZING, it competes with fox, falco, sheik, and marth's overall move set, but he himself is a crappy character, roy's sweetspot screws him over

Hahahahaha, dude, you can't be serious. Ness has the best airgame!? Mewtwo's move set is amazing!? WTF have you been smoking and where can I get some?

Ness's air game is average. Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth, Captain Falcon, and Ganon all have far superior air games, and while I'm not sure about other characters, last I checked, having 6 characters with strictly superior air games than you made you not have the best air game. One of the tricks here is that while Ness's arial attacks are pretty decent, their range is pretty unimpressive (besides sparkle) and his arial movement is clunky and slow. I really have no idea where you're pulling this from.

On to the one that really made me laugh. Now, I love M2, he's one of my favorite characters to play and anyone who plays with me regularly can vouch for my love of M2. But there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that you or anyone can think his moveset can compete with Fox, Falco, Shiek, and Marth's. Have you ever seen any of his smashs? They're all strictly unplayable, with the rare exception of the dsmash on an edgegaurd or against an otherwise crippled opponent. His jab is pretty **** bad too, and while his tilts are pretty good, they don't make up for that terrible other ****. His dair is really pretty bad, even though I love hitting people with it. His fair is good, but clunky and difficult to land, even when you learn the hitbox and timing on it. His nair packs decent priority, but not enough range, damage, or combo potential to be exciting. His uair and bair are both solid moves, but again, fairly unexciting. His down dodge is terrible unless you're trying to dodge a whole shiek dsmash (you can dodge a grab and they recover and grab again before you finish). His down b and forward b are terrible unless in the perfect situation (BF glitch ftw!). I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. Also, since when has Roy's sweetspot ever held anyone back? what was that comment, it doesn't even make sense. . .

Please sober up before making any more rediculous claims. . .

[SwiftBass]

yeah comeon i know ness has a big a$$ head but approaching with a Uair is ridculous. wow dude, like I thought the Ness vs Fox thing was a far fetched idea, but u saying that ness beats marths air game is funny, i mean danm.

lol @ the pursuasive essay above me

[Samochan]

A good ness will not even need to use his up B recovery. Just his double jump and aerial dodge will do. And I want to see a fox that could get an aerial trough ness' fair. >_>; Ness can also juggle fox like no other, fair cuts trough virtually anything fox can do and can lead to grab for ness, which in turn leads to uthrow and DJC uair juggle. At low, it's possible for ness to regrab the fox and juggle some more. Ness can also edgeguard Fox better than fox can edgeguard ness. Don't give me any of that shine crap, cause anyone with decent DI will not fly low enough from Fox's attacks to get shinespiked, since most of his attacks don't have such trajectories. Dsmash can be teched and if connected can be fatal anyway without the shinespike and shine is not usually used as a main move to get the opponent over the edge (as in knockback purposes like dsmash would be used). I've seen and played against the best european Ness player here so I should know something about Ness as well. <_<

As for Ness' aerials, they're pretty versatile as in, he has a very good approach move (fair), kill move (bair), juggle move (uair) and even meteor (dair). He can also link his aerials together and into grabs and with his DJC, can be unpredictable with his aerial movement and get those aerials in efficently.

[mood4food77]

alright, i exaggerated a little bit with the uair

can any other character in the game link together as many air moves as ness can, i think not?

i'm not saying ness is an amazing character, he has only one good thing about him and that's his amazing air game, it works on everyone

marth's air game is crap on another marth, and it's not so good on heavy characters and fast fallers

peach's air game would be better if she had more good air moves (nair and bair, dair sometimes)

fox's air is great, but his only reliable approach is with nair

luigi's would be better if he wasn't too floaty, he's really slow in the air

ness' air game is how he starts everything pretty much, he can land a DJC fair to grab practically at any percent (exaggeration), ness' air game is hard to use, you jsut can't pick up ness and expect to use it (why he's considered one of the 5 hardest characters to use), so let's take all of the aspects you want

luigi's got 2 airmoves before touching the ground, wavedashing after an airmove

marth has double aerial before touching the ground, aerial to grab, aerial to wavedash

fox has approaching aerial (running in with nair)

peach has surprising aerial (nair out of sheild)


what does ness have, all of that (except for maybe the wavedashing bit but i think he can do it, not too sure though, need a better ness to clarify) he can do 2 aerials from the same height as luigi can, but can extend his combo further than luigi can, not marth, but marth's is so percent restricted that for the most part, isn't really used and considered unnecessary to learn, nice to have but is not needed, fox's nair can be stopped and sheild grabbed, so can ness' but not as much as fox's (try sheild grabbing a sparkle...), and like peach, can do his nair out of the sheild just as fast as peach can (almost as fast) but he can also do uair and fair out of it unlike peach (they can both do bair), while he may have the best air game, he still is a crappy character, which is what determines a character, like mewtwo (amazing moveset, **** character), is effected by natural stuff like weight and floatiness that keep him low (also his ground game is crap)

ness does not do amazing on fox, he does better than most characters do though (especially low tier characters), that's the point i'm trying to get across, ness does alright, better than most characters do on fox, especially compared to the other low tier characters

mewtwo's moveset is decent, but he got screwed over

one other thing, mewtwo vs. mario/doc, i'd put taht a 5-0 in the mario's favor, mewtwo has absolutely not a single combo on them, they can jump out of everything (except for maybe dtilt)), alright maybe comparing it to the top was a bit extreme but he has an above average moveset, but it could be better if he got screwed over


ness' air game slow....that's a new one

samochan's european...new one to me, what ness is in there...isn't it like sickness or something like that

[ROB_[MCC}]

Yeah, I'm fairly sure the best Ness player on a continent could beat a Fox. However, back in the real world, Ness gets owned by Fox on a daily basis.

[mood4food77]

he does not get owned, i've played fox's with ness, decent ones too, and he does not get owned, yes i lost some, but he does not get anywhere near owned (i played husband's fox with ness, yes he doesn't use fox but he's way better than me, i did fairly well on him then), he just does better than most of the characters in the game

[SwiftBass]

ness can juggle fox like no other............ umm fox, DK, Falco, roy, puff they all juggle fox WAY better because they have the ability to chase the DI.

alright, i exaggerated a little bit with the uair



ya think so?


yeah so i think im done talking about a matchup that will never occure as a threat to me. If ur ever in my area lemme know so I can MM your Ness and prove how bad the matchup is.

EDIT: good job in contending with husbands fox.....

[Magus420]

and yes, shine's range roughly equals that of jiggs rest (jiggs body is bigger than fox's, but the shine makes them about the same size)Fox's shine has ~4-5 times the diameter and ~20 times the area of rest. Close enough right? :psycho:

[mood4food77]

jiggs rest is really that bad in range, i always thought they were about teh same, oh well

ness can chase DI, it's not easy but he can

i used a pro, and i'm pretty sure a pro is way better than me anyday, no matter what character he/she uses (except for the odd ones like ICs, ness, and yoshi)

i do not MM, never did, never will, but will take the match for free (can't lose much money as of now and i hate taking other people's money)

[pockyD]

all you do is talk in abstractions that have very little or nothing to do with actual combat within a match (8 aerials in 10 seconds OMG!!!!)

and then every time you try to mention specifics, you say something completely stupid (shine = rest range, fox can't recover from shinespikes, ness can effectively approach with uair)

i would just drop the argument right now if i were you, though i guess if i was in your head i'd be thinking "i can't look stupider than i already do so i may as well keep going"

[mood4food77]

i always thought fox's shine had as much range as jiggs' rest, don't know why

now look, there's no reason to make insults here, yes you're open to opinion but there's no reason for it, i defended what i think and that's what matters, yea some of the info was wrong, but not all of it

the 8 aerials in 10 seconds was when someone asked how fast he could perform them, which in ness' case, is used in battle, at low percents he can get 3, quick DJC uairs on fatties and fast fallers (falcon/link and heavier and fox and faster)

fox can't recover from shinespikes...nice going

you defended your arguement, i defended mine

i still feel ness has the best air game, i main ganon, i don't feel his air game is as good as ness', same with fox, falco, falcon, and marth (falcon comes close though)

alright it's done, and pretty much nothing changed, i just defended my opinion and you defended yours

[pockyD]

you also simultaneously conceded that marth beats ness in the air

why then does ness have the best air game then?

you just don't seem to have a solid criteria for any assertion you make; you seem to just choose whatever heuristics suit your argument and just ignore all other factors

[mood4food77]

marth beats ness' air game when he faces marth

overall, ness has the best air game

ok, if you look at the top air games there and remove a move from each what happens

if you remove marth's fair, his air game is crap
if you remove fox's nair, his approach is killed
falco, you'll have to remove his SHL to kill his game
ganon, remove his uair, he loses main juggle
falcon, remove nair, his air game is not good
peach, remove nair and her airgame sucks

ness, remove fair, he can use bair and approach, remove bair, you're only removing one kill move, he has other options to, remove uair, he can still juggle

ness' airgame does not revolve around a single move unlike the other top air games, why i think ness has the best air game

[pockyD]

why remove a move?

since when did mlg start banning one move per character? when that day happens i'll accept your argument but until then it doesn't matter

and ok, i'll humor you a little bit; what kill moves besides bair?

[mood4food77]

bat, bthrow, uair (sometimes),

i'm not saying ban them, but to say if you were to remove just one move from a characters air game, how much worse would their air game be if you removed one from ness, ness' air game would still be decent if you removed one of those

you'd be surprised how often a ness kills with his trusty bat

[phish-it]

if you remove marth's fair, his air game is crap
But he still has the d-air to spike, n-air to interupt the opponents attacks and u-air for keeping the opponent from touching you from above.


if you remove fox's nair, his approach is killed
But he still has a ridiculous u-air for killing off top, b-air which is great for edgeuarding, and d-air which can start a waveshine or grab.

falco, you'll have to remove his SHL to kill his game
But he can still shine combo the **** out of pretty much every character...

ganon, remove his uair, he loses main juggle
But he still has the f-air for spacing and killing, b-air for edgeuarding well and killing and the d-air for starting combos and well, killing.

falcon, remove nair, his air game is not good
But he still has the crazy powerful Knee, u-air for comboing into it, dair for also comboing into it, and b-air for flying out to edguard.

peach, remove nair and her airgame sucks
But she still has the B-air which last longer and has great priority, f-air for spacing, d-air for comboing into a d-smash or grab, and the occasioal u-air for comboing from below.


You see, you can use the same logic for these characters as well.

[pockyD]

bat, bthrow, uair (sometimes),


bthrow - if you're content getting them to 160 in the middle of a stage and then trying to get a grab with ness's raptor arms before killing them sure

uair - if you want to wait for fox to get to like 180-200 ok, point taken

bat - what's the startup time on this again? he can't combo into it so it's not truly legit; or do you consider ganon's fsmash a quality kill move as well?

edit: needless to say the reason removing one move from ness's air game doesn't set it back as much is because HIS AIR GAME IS AS GOOD as those others so it doesn't drop that much

does marth need to have fair speed and range in all 4 directions for you to think he has a good air game or something?