All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[cablepuff]

hmm unless i misinterpert wrong there is lot of things wrong with the sheik chart.


sheik vs doc and mario is 5-4 or even.

sheik beats up samus and jiggly for sure. 5-3. Doc and Mario does not get beat up by sheik
worst than these two.

edit and sheik definitely beats up luigi and dk 5-3 imho is 5-2.

[smashfan34]

fox vs link isnt 5-1 it should be 5-3. sheik is way worse of a matchup then fox, and you've got sheik at 5-2. link vs marth make even at least. link vs samus make it even at least. prolly should be links favor 5 to 4. link and ic's even or in links favor 5 to 4.

[Vall3y]

wow this owns.

umm... few questions
falcon goes even with puff?
i think you should reconsider that
also, falcon even vs mario but has advantage over doc?
i dont know much about these but it doesnt sound right

by the way, 5-0 5-1 and 5-2 look almost the same
5-3 is also very similar
i think you should make larger diffrences between those

[phanna]

Well for Pichu I would suggest:

1-5 vs fox (pichu can combo a fox but just gets killed far too easily)

3- 5 vs falco (same with fox except falco is easier to kill and harder to be killed by)

1-5 vs peach (too much priority etc.)

2-5 vs falcon

0-5 vs ice climbers (really, pichu's hit box is his body and there is not enough of it to separate and kill 2 characters with disjointed hitboxes that can chaingrab you 0 - death.)

1-5 vs. Mario (MArio's main flaw is his lack of kill moves, but it doesn't take that much strength to kill pichu. Combine that with his ability to combo and it's a massacre)

4-5 vs Ness (really it's a pretty close match)

3-5 vs Game and watch (hitbox speaks for itself)

3- 5 vs bowser (too heavy and powerful for pichu)

even vs kirby i'd sayI left Pichu versus Fox and Falco alone for now - I think Pichu going 2-5 versus Falco is fairly accurate, and that Fox is less of a threat, at 3-5.

I agree with Peach, ICies, and Mario. G&W is already at 3-5.

I changed the Ness matchup from 1-5 to 2-5, but Ness players generally indicate this as quite an easy fight, so I don't see it going up much higher than that.

I lowered Pichu vs Bowser to 5-4 from 5-3, but really it is a match of small and fast versus big and slow.

I decreased Pichu's advantage on Kirby from 5-3 to 5-4, but Pichu really has the faster horizontal movement he needs to have enough of an edge on Kirby to avoid the fight being perfectly even.

I really feel Ganon vs. samus is close to even rather than 5-2 in Ganon's favor. They can both do nasty things to eachother. and as a Ganon main, I would rather face a falco than samus in tournament with him. Just my preference.I'm going to leave that one alone, because that's definitely Samus' hardest match-up in my opinion, and 2-5 seems generous for the pro Ganon vs Samus fights I've seen. For instance, Wes didn't beat Tipman once with Samus vs Ganon at Nexus, FL.

DK vs Fox should be about 4-5, and 2-5 against falco.I swapped the 3-5 vs Fox with the 4-5 vs Falco, getting pretty close to your suggestion.

Also, Ice climbers are DK's hardest matchup and they are listed as even when it should be something like 1-5They are listed as 4-5, the same as DK vs Fox, Marth, Doc, Mario, or Zelda. The Ice Climbers cannot chain-throw DK, and I know that DK can give the ICies some trouble, and definitely aren't DK's hardest matchup. Currently, he's listed as 2-5 versus Sheik, Samus, and Ness. I'm not sure about Ness, but that's the feeling I got from some players.

1. Ganon > Bowser 5-1
2. Ganon > DK 5-2
3. Ganon > Roy 5-2
4. Ganon > G&W 5-2
5. Ganon > Samus 5-3
6. Ganon > Yoshi 5-3
7. Ganon > Ness 5-3
8. Ganon > Pichu 5-3
9. Ganon > Pikachu 5-3
lowered Bowser vs Ganon from 3-5 to 2-5
lowered DK vs Ganon from 3-5 to 2-5
lowered Roy vs Ganon from 3-5 to 2-5
lowered G&W vs Ganon from 4-5 to 2-5
raised Samus vs Ganon from 2-5 to 3-5 (different from my personal experience, but lots of Ganons seem to have trouble with Samus I guess)
lowered Yoshi vs Ganon from 4-5 to 3-5
lowered Ness vs Ganon from EVEN to 4-5
Pichu vs Ganon already at 3-5
left Pikachu vs Ganon at 4-5

10. Ganon > Mewtwo 5-3^^ I'd really label vs. Mewtwo as 5-1.lowered Mewtwo vs Ganon from 3-5 to 2-5

meanwhile, the list i made... when not alluding to the tier list, should still be somewhat on topic.I haven't decided on the calculations I'm going to perform later, as you can see from AlphaZealot's post, it's more convoluted than it might seem. Your list is certainly interesting, and certainly relevant to the chart, thanks for making it. Not sure how it will factor into things in the future, but it's interesting to think about.

I may or may not translate this over to a numbers chart as it would be easier to read printed... its quite simple toread right now actually... I dont see why people are complaining so much about variations on color...looksgreat to meThanks; I'll probably be doing a number chart, and it would be easier for me than others since I have all the raw materials for the chart, but for now I'm not going to since it's changing a lot, but if you want to make a snapshot I'm sure people would enjoy looking at it. Either way, thanks, and you made an interesting observation about Ness.

Wow, I thought that Yoshi had a better chance against Pikachu!Well it's currently listed as 4-5 in Pikachu's favor, so that's pretty close, and given Pikachu's ability to flick Yoshi out helplessly without his double jump, and to chain throw him at certain percent ranges, it actually might be closer to 3-5. I'm leaving it alone for now, but if you have more specific feedback, it would be appreciated.

sheik vs doc and mario is 5-4 or even.

sheik beats up samus and jiggly for sure. 5-3. Doc and Mario does not get beat up by sheik
worst than these two.

edit and sheik definitely beats up luigi and dk 5-3 imho is 5-2.Maybe I need more feedback from Sheik's, but it seems that Sheik definitely does well against Doc and Mario. Currently, Doc is listed as 3-5 and Mario as 2-5, the biggest difference between the two being Doc's fair and better cape. I'm going to leave them alone for now, since I have faith in Sheik's ability to rape, but I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Samus and Jigglypuff both barely are at a disadvantage against sheik at 4-5, and this seems about right. I've seen Sheik players complaining about how impossible it is to avoid a proper wall of pain when you're off the level. My experiences as Samus is that Sheik is an uphill battle, but very doable.

Sheik versus DK and Luigi are already both at 5-2.

So I didn't make any changes based on your post, perhaps some other Sheiks should post their opinions.

fox vs link isnt 5-1 it should be 5-3. sheik is way worse of a matchup then fox, and you've got sheik at 5-2. link vs marth make even at least. link vs samus make it even at least. prolly should be links favor 5 to 4. link and ic's even or in links favor 5 to 4.Thanks for posting feedback I can actually use to try to make the Chart better, your previous post was a little unclear.

Fox is one of Links worst fights. I'm going to increase the match-up from 1-5 to 2-5 since link can edge-guard fox pretty well, but Fox really just rapes link in a bad way. I'm leaving sheik at 5-2.

Link versus marth is listed at 4-5, just below even. I know this is not an even fight, so this seems appropriate.

Link versus Samus doesn't seem even. I'm going to leave it at 3-5 for now, but I would entertain arguments for 4-5.

You haven't played good Ice Climbers if you think it's in Link's advantage. I'm leaving that at 2-5, your suggestion seems way off the mark on that one.

falcon goes even with puff?
i think you should reconsider that
also, falcon even vs mario but has advantage over doc?
i dont know much about these but it doesnt sound right
Puff can deal with Falco's lasers well, and combo him very well, and frankly if Falco misses one throw's DI he's dead. Jiggly's biggest weakness is usually dying off the top, something Falco has a hard time doing. From what I've read and seen, this fight is pretty even, so I'll leave that one alone for now.

Doc currently is listed as going 3-5 against Captain Falcon whereas Mario is listed as Even. Both have an excellent Chain-Throw against C. Falcon, but Doc has really small grab and forward smash range, whereas Mario has a much better Fsmash and recovery. I'm leaving this alone for now as well, but it is interesting, if not incorrect, that there is a 2 point difference between the match-ups of Doc and Mario versus Captain Falcon. More input on this issue is probably needed.

[Plairnkk]

mario does better against sheik than doc, imo. the better recovery is crucial vs sheik's gayness, and the 0-death cg-->fsmash is too good. i'd say mario 4-5, doc 3-5.

Also, sheik vs fox really isn't even, you're listening to too much Doodah BS ^_~. If the fox knows the matchup well enough, he should just be able to rape. i'd probably go with 5-3 in fox's favor, but it's at least 5-4.

[Airo]

for mewtwo.. i disagree with your change his matchup with ganon.
i would even say that it is pretty even

ganon has no real combo on mewtwo since he is so floaty
ganon's falling speed and size makes him one of mewtwo's most ideal combo target.
mewtwo edgeguards ganon effectively with dsmash.
ganon's recovery generally cant be too far below the stage, hence bair can intercept effectively

[linkmastersword]

this chart will have very few flaws in it with in a couple days, it's near flawless as it is.


Phanna oh, and the samus thing, it may be true that ganon is one of samus's hardest match ups, but samus is not ganon's easiest match up. understand, I don't know if that was clear

[StripesOrBars]

If Airo's list is correct, then the naturaly broken characters(characters that take no skill to be broken with) are the best in the game still(Marth and Shiek).

With Space animals and ICs in a kinda close 2nd.

Shiek players are n00bs who hate even match ups.

Shiek=Fox
Shiek=Falco

SLIGHT SLIGHT SLIGHT advantage for spacies, but its so slight it might as well be even.

Plairnkk is a n00b!

[phish-it]

Thanks for listening to my suggestions Phanna, but really DK's hardest matchup are the ice climbers

A large portion of DK's game revolves around grabs and comboing out of them. A set of IC's are the hardest characters to get a grab on. Besides, he really doesn't have anything more than a 2 hit comboes against them as opposed to other characters.

Also I strongly suggest you switch Pichu vs. Fox with Pichu vs. Falco. Fox is much harder for pichu to kill, and has a much easier time killing Pichu than Flaco. (Upthrow upair kills at like 60%)

[StripesOrBars]

Yea ICs counter DK more than they supposedly counter Shiek.

[Luigi Ka-master]

Hmmm...nice list. Though I have a few minor disagreements with a few things. Such as Falcon vs Luigi. I can't really see it being in Luigi's favor. Falcon's aerials (specifically n-air) just out-range Luigi a little too much.

Annnd...this might just be my opinion, but Fox seems to give Luigi a little more trouble than Falco. Especially on stages other than FD.

Also, I'm pretty sure Maelstrom said awhile back that Luigi has the upper-hand against Mario, due to rush-down tactics and Mario not being able to combo Luigi so well.

Annnd one more...if I interpreted the list correctly, it says that Ness has the advantage over Luigi? I'm kind of curious how you achieved these results...

[Bullfrog]

Well it's currently listed as 4-5 in Pikachu's favor, so that's pretty close, and given Pikachu's ability to flick Yoshi out helplessly without his double jump, and to chain throw him at certain percent ranges, it actually might be closer to 3-5. I'm leaving it alone for now, but if you have more specific feedback, it would be appreciated.

4-5 is good. Keep it that way, since Yoshi can chaingrab Pikachu, too. D-throw ->fair FTW. You just have to be able to space it right.

[1048576]

Jesus, you sure pwned the crap out of my pathetic chart

[Airo]

I'm kind of curious how you achieved these results...

phanna is loaded with immense amount of experiences

[Luigi Ka-master]

phanna is loaded with immense amount of experiences



>_>...<_<

Ness? Gotcha...I've got just a little bit of Luigi experience myself. Just a little though.

[linkmastersword]

Falcon vs luigi is really an interesting match-up.

luigi can utterly destroy falcon with his aerial combos, I don't know falcons nair out ranges luigis fair, nair or bair, but I may be wrong. I've fought this fight several times, I personally think luigi has the advantage by 5-4. but all I know is that a CF would much rather be fighting other characters than a luigi if given the option.

[Eggz]

>_>...<_<

Ness? Gotcha...I've got just a little bit of Luigi experience myself. Just a little though.

lmfao.

I'd like to know the source of such results as well. I'm pretty sure Luigi has never fought Ness. Ever. XD

Phanna, I'm very impressed with your chart. Your nearly completely accurate representation of Mario makes me soooo warm inside. Thats basically all I looked at so far though, I'll edit with whiny *****y complaining after I review it one more time.

EDIT: Shiek VS Link and Shiek vs Pikachu is 5-0 Shieks favor for sure. Chainthrow + auto fair ftw = rapeage. I also can't think of anything pika and link have on chu, but im not very knowledgeable about any of the three characters, I just know I chainthrow the crap outta chu and link, and that Aniki only changed from Link to fight shieks at one of them japan tourneys.

Jiggs taps ganon like a mother. WoP is too good. 2-5 Jiggs' favor

Jiggs does pretty well on Mario on account of Mario being incapable of comboing the thing. However, Mario has a couple of most excellent camping tactics and trixy dair antics he can pull off to even it out a little, so it's probably more like 3-5 jiggs favor

Roy fox is not even, as fox can combo the poopers out of roy more than roy can fox. And by combo, I mean really gay **** like uthrow uair, along with trixys like thunders. Fox also outspaces roy generally. Fox's favor 3-5

question: Doesn't shiek rape samus?

That's all I can notice as of now. Your too good though Phanna. <3

[Rapid_Assassin]

I'd like to know the source of such results as well. I'm pretty sure Luigi has never fought Ness. Ever. XD

That matchup comes up a lot in low tier tournaments, because both characters are very common choices in low tiers..

Some of the matchups are a bit off, but this is the best attempt I've seen of this type of thing yet.

[Eggz]

I just assumed low tier tournaments, usually being comprised of people's tertiarys, wouldn't be the primary source for such a discussion. Luigi is banned in WA tourneys because of Ka Master, so we can't depend on such things =P

[JBM falcon08]

Marth vs sheik:5-2. sheik
Marth vs ganon:5-3. marth
Marth vs CF:even
Marth vs Samus:5-3. marth
Marth vs fox:even/5-4. fox

[Luigi Ka-master]

Falcon vs luigi is really an interesting match-up.

luigi can utterly destroy falcon with his aerial combos, I don't know falcons nair out ranges luigis fair, nair or bair, but I may be wrong. I've fought this fight several times, I personally think luigi has the advantage by 5-4. but all I know is that a CF would much rather be fighting other characters than a luigi if given the option.


Well, Falcon's n-air does out-range Luigi's f-air n-air and b-air. Luigi's aerials massively out-prioritize Falcon's, but Falcon's out-range Luigi. So as long as you play gay enough and space all of your n-airs, then there's little Luigi can do.

[cb_marth]

Marth vs sheik:5-2. sheik
Marth vs ganon:5-3. marth
Marth vs CF:even
Marth vs Samus:5-3. marth
Marth vs fox:even/5-4. fox

Hmm Marth and CF are even...and fox would do that good agenst Marth? Not in FD he wouldn't.

[JBM falcon08]

FD isn't that bad of a stage for fox, most will say Chainthrowing, but oh well thats been around for so long that most foxes know how to adapt and not get grabbed. Fox vs marth is slightly in foxes favor, i wouldn't say as much as 5-4, but it could be. the matchup is totally stage dependant.

[cb_marth]

FD isn't that bad of a stage for fox, most will say Chainthrowing, but oh well thats been around for so long that most foxes know how to adapt and not get grabbed. Fox vs marth is slightly in foxes favor, i wouldn't say as much as 5-4, but it could be. the matchup is totally stage dependant.

No I do agree with you the matchup is totally stage dependant. I just if you play a pro Marth and a pro Fox I myself being a Marth haha. I just think that Fox has his speed and if you know how to use his sheild well then yes you have a good chance. I think though in FD seeing how Fox is easily set up for combo's he is at a disadvantage.

[phish-it]

FD isn't that bad of a stage for fox, most will say Chainthrowing, but oh well thats been around for so long that most foxes know how to adapt and not get grabbed.

But thats been around for so long that most marths know how to adapt and get a grab in.....

Just thinking from both perspectives.

[JBM falcon08]

^hahaha, too good.

What about Ken(marth) vs KDJ(fox)?
Ken is at a higher level of skill/experience by far than kdj, yet kdj is a ken counter, doesn't that justify that fox should win the matchup considering ken is at a higher skill level than kdj yet kdj beats him consistently?

[Earthbound360]

Well, in the Ness forums, we are FINALLY getting together and forming a Ness match-up topic that is successful, and we all can at least agree on the fact that Shiek is Ness' *****.:(
Red square there.

[Eggz]

About time the ness forums do something other than say Ness is top tier.

[Airo]

phanna could u please make the greens greener?
i really cant tell the difference between 5-0, 5-1, and 5-2

even squinting and concentrating and doing my best to distinguish it.. i really cant tell the difference.. cant tell at all =/

[wuthefwasthat]

phanna - this chart is amazing

people - leave the colors alone... if you take the difference between light green and light light green so seriously, you're wasting your time. if you guys say its hard to distinguish the greens... just look to the other side of the chart at the reds... honestly...

anyways, this should be stickied, so that more people can contribute

regarding the adding up the points thing... that just doesnt really work
if character 1 is all yellows, it would have a better point total than character 2, who is 1/3 dark red, and 2/3 bright green. but someone would probably play character 2 far more than character 1 for the red matchups, and then switch to other characters for other matchups. basically, the amount of deviation = screw up point totaling. in addition, more deviation = better for people who play multiple characters. maybe i should pick up young link more... for that peach matchup.

btw, why does young link rape so badly for that? seriously... i can sorta see a bit of the reasoning... but i havent played the matchup myself... so...

btw - ka-master is ridiculous. even so, you shouldnt judge on one player, even if he is amazing, because different styles become ultimately different characters. to use the common example, i bet Aniki sees matchups COMPLETELY differently than Germ

meanwhile, where is azen so he can bless us with his knowledge? he plays awesome with every freaking character, so probably knows every matchup with tons of experience.

[Luigi Ka-master]

phanna - this chart is amazing

people - leave the colors alone... if you take the difference between light green and light light green so seriously, you're wasting your time. if you guys say its hard to distinguish the greens... just look to the other side of the chart at the reds... honestly...

anyways, this should be stickied, so that more people can contribute

regarding the adding up the points thing... that just doesnt really work
if character 1 is all yellows, it would have a better point total than character 2, who is 1/3 dark red, and 2/3 bright green. but someone would probably play character 2 far more than character 1 for the red matchups, and then switch to other characters for other matchups. basically, the amount of deviation = screw up point totaling. in addition, more deviation = better for people who play multiple characters. maybe i should pick up young link more... for that peach matchup.

btw, why does young link rape so badly for that? seriously... i can sorta see a bit of the reasoning... but i havent played the matchup myself... so...

btw - ka-master is ridiculous. even so, you shouldnt judge on one player, even if he is amazing, because different styles become ultimately different characters. to use the common example, i bet Aniki sees matchups COMPLETELY differently than Germ

meanwhile, where is azen so he can bless us with his knowledge? he plays awesome with every freaking character, so probably knows every matchup with tons of experience.


Wow, you're cool.

First off, what are you even referring to? Everything I said as a whole? The Ness part? I said that through my small experience with Ness, I haven't seen any major problems that would put Luigi at the disadvantage, and was curious as to how Phanna got the results. I never said that through my omnipotent godly knowledge of Luigi, I decided that the match-up of Luigi vs Ness is 100% in Luigi's favor.

I think I prefer hearing from Phanna himself, not some angry guy who I don't know, telling me that I'm wrong for no good reason.

[Megaa]

I hate being colorblind. Everything from even to 5-0 looks exactly the same. :(

[nitro-blazer]

even so, you shouldnt judge on one player, even if he is amazing, because different styles become ultimately different characters. to use the common example, i bet Aniki sees matchups COMPLETELY differently than Germ

Doesn't this mean that creating a chart like this would be futile?

[Airo]

no... the color...the 3 greens i really cant distinguish it!

they look sooo identical to me


regarding the adding up the points thing... that just doesnt really work
if character 1 is all yellows, it would have a better point total than character 2, who is 1/3 dark red, and 2/3 bright green. but someone would probably play character 2 far more than character 1 for the red matchups, and then switch to other characters for other matchups. basically, the amount of deviation = screw up point totaling. in addition, more deviation = better for people who play multiple characters. maybe i should pick up young link more... for that peach matchup.

em... no.... character 2 would have higher point count that character 1
i dont think you know what you are talkign about.
i dont think you even understood what the list is. o.o

those calculations were merely statistics extracted from phanna's chart
whats left is how you interpret it. and i simply interpreted it by saying that it has close relation and resembelance of the tier list. And it DOES.

by theory, the tier list is based on 'how well a character fairs with another' hence metagame. 'how well a character fairs with another' does pretty much define the word 'counter.' and so my my hypthesis is quite logical and acceptable.

you may disagree with my theory. theories (eg. theory of special relativity) are not laws (eg. law of gravity) so they arnt proven anyways. but what you posted .... is just full of your own miscalculation and doesnt make sense.

but as we have discussed, it would be nice to not bring up the troublesome tier list. so as of now, the chart i made could still contribute to phanna's matrix calculations.

btw - ka-master is ridiculous. even so, you shouldnt judge on one player, even if he is amazing, because different styles become ultimately different characters. to use the common example, i bet Aniki sees matchups COMPLETELY differently than Germ

Q: woah.... how true is that!!!!!
A: its not!!!!!

yeah there Are MANY styles.. but there are only few styles for each character that Actually Works in competitive scenes.

[Megaa]

Airo, are you red-green colorblind? You seem to be in the same predicament as I.

[Airo]

o.o no im not
i really dont think so

i can very clearly distinguish between all the red oranges and yellow, as well as the slimy green color. but the next 3 green colors LOOK THE SAME

it might be my screen only, but i highly doubt this.
who of you guys could really tell the difference between 0-5, 1-5, and 2-5
DONT YOU LIE TO ME

[Cort]

Beautiful idea. Though I would disagree with some...

Use more contrasting colors, also. @_@

[smashfan34]

I think you are making a mistake. a HUGE One. Ice climbers does not have a 5-2 advantage over link. You are right I have never played an insane ice climbers, but I have played people about even with ice climbers with me, and there is NO WAY ICE CLIMBERS ARE AS EFFECTIVE AGAINST LINK AS SHEIK IS. NO WAY. ask NJzfinest, he will say ice climbers are at a disadvantage against link. look at his characters matchups in the link forums.. trust me..I have never heard ever until your chart that link gets countered by Ic's. trust me, you need to make it link vs Ic's 5 to 4.

[Airo]

Cort Agrees!

edit:

I think you are making a mistake. a HUGE One. Ice climbers does not have a 5-2 advantage over link. You are right I have never played an insane ice climbers, but I have played people about even with ice climbers with me, and there is NO WAY ICE CLIMBERS ARE AS EFFECTIVE AGAINST LINK AS SHEIK IS. NO WAY. ask NJzfinest, he will say ice climbers are at a disadvantage against link. look at his characters matchups in the link forums.. trust me..I have never heard ever until your chart that link gets countered by Ic's. trust me, you need to make it link vs Ic's 5 to 4.

"trust me" doesnt cut it.
show more proof.. go into more detail. be very specific.

[Wilhelmsan]

I don't really think he needs to explain. I mean, everyone here agrees that the matchup list changes DRASTICALLY at different levels of play.