All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[pdk]

1) this chart doesn't determine the tier list layout
2) for the sake of argument let's say fox is #1 and sheik is #2 in the tiers. let's also say that fox has a good advantage against everyone #3 and below in the tiers, while sheik completely rapes those characters, BUT fox happens to rape sheik instead of vice-versa. now, which one sounds like the better choice on the whole if you're playing to win? this is why highest matchups total != best char

[Timotee]

Indeed. For the tallies of everyone above Link in the tier list, Shiek has the best results. Sadly for shiek, she's at a disadvantage against the space animals. Shiek has such high numbers because she eats low tier for breakfast, while fox just beats anyone he feels like beating.

Beating person with highest tally > Having highest tally.

Math!

[KishPrime]

Still think of everything, ICs/Jiggs needs to be flipped. ICs hammer Jiggs.

[Cort]

Actually, it makes more sense to dispute which matchups actually occur in tournament. Who cares how bad Sheik rapes Ness or Yoshi...

Anyway,

Cort: Fox is definitely the more difficult of the two. Falco's lasers are gay and all, but Falco has a much harder time KOing Mewtwo than Fox. Fox gets 87% up throw Up air KOs no problem on Mewtwo. Mewtwo is also huge, so even a poorly spaced Fox can land things he shouldn't be able to.

-.-

[mood4food77]

falcon vs. samus? even or no? i'm not really sure but i think it is, anyone else agree?

[TJK1997]

I think it is a even matchup and phinna you may want to go thourgh some matchups again.

[Sharingan]

im sorry if anyone posted this before but i didnt feel like looking through 60 pages can anyone really tell me how y.link counters peach.

[pockyD]

bombs bombs bombs!

and running away

[thesage]

Mabye there should be a post summarizing everything said at the beginning.

[1048576]

M4F, I don't think Falcon vs. Samus is even. Falcon can get to Samus too quickly, which practically mitigates her projectile game. Samus doesn't want opponents constantly in her face. Samus is difficult to combo due to her floatyness, but it is relatively easy to land knees on her due to her high crouch, large size, and risky shield-grab.

[mood4food77]

samus has her CC which kills falcon's approach, they both can perform really nasty combo's, and since when does samus sheild grab, i think it's even, but what do i know...i'm just the one that thinks so

[Magus420]

Knees and stomps don't CC very well. Neither do grabs.

[mood4food77]

true....i guess falcon has a slight advantage

[pockyD]

Mabye there should be a post summarizing everything said at the beginning.

well if someone has a question about why a specific matchup was weighted a certain way without intending to put in their own input in an attempt to get it changed, they're probably best off rolling over to either of the char-specific forums and asking there

[1048576]

Samus doesn't shield grab. That's the problem. Falcon can throw knees around the stage without having to worry about being shield-grabbed.

[phish-it]

But if he gets too offensive, Samus can still Up-B out of the shield to knock Falcon off.

[mood4food77]

i thought it was just like, who gets the hit first gets the kill pretty much, cause it seems like both can really combo the crap outta each other

and no, you cannot run around with falcon doing knees...you will pay

[Xx swift xX]

Couldn't Samus just time a spotdodge and punish with a dsmash?

[1048576]

Up-B will leave Samus with more lag than Falcon if he doesn't get trapped in the screw attack. It also does like 8 damage, which isn't a lot. If Samus spot dodges, she can't smash if Falcon L-Cancels, because she will only hit his shield. She can jab or f-tilt. Again, minimal damage. Obviously the Falcon has to mix it up a little to get a hit in, but the Samus needs to be much more skilled than the Falcon in order to win.

[DogySamich]

Bump, cause this thread is awesome, and it needs to be stickied.

[ToP CaT]

all good thoughts but samus wrecks falcons recovery omg....uptilt ftw?

[Johnknight1]

It rite mainly...Marth totally dominates Kirby, I found that out like 3 months ago! I own my bro at Melee, and Kirby one of my best, and Marth is one of his. I barely won, after realizing I had to use basically only air attacks!

I hate stuff like that, there should be only 4's, 5's, and 6's on your list! I'm not saying the chart is wrong (it exellent), what I'm saying is the weakness junk is stupid and Nintendo should have worked harder to even it out, thus eliminting most weaknesses. This only really affects 1-2% of matches, but weaknessess should be totally gone, or at least minimalized.

Then again, it was 2001, and I hope Brawl does better. I actually at a disadvantage with Link when fighting Falco and Fox only because of their speed. But if I hit them, I do huge combos on them, and once I start nailing a few combos, I own them!

But Pichu is actually my weakness as Link! Pichu, that is amazing, considering Link my best, and I have fought so much with Link. I tend to tear Bowser, Capt Falcon, Ganondorf, Kirby Fox, Falco, and Mario only because I use them all a lot.

There are most cases, such as Link vs Fox where the advantage/disadvatage doesn't affect a good player (just let Fox hit you with a quick attack, or rigth before pull out a smash or grab combo). There are also rare cases, like Kirby and Marth, were one player can pown the other with any character but that character, and get powned!

Hopefully Brawl has a near perfect balance without uber powerful and uber weak characters and matchups. Pichu we staring at you, even though you my weakness! Fingers crossed tightly as a pichu approaches me...

[tarheeljks]

That is ridiculous. If the (dis)advantages didn't affect good players then we'd see a lot more people winning tournaments w/low tier characters.

[KevinM]

That is ridiculous. If the (dis)advantages didn't affect good players then we'd see a lot more people winning tournaments w/low tier characters.

QFT

My poor boozer and GAW... THEY NEVER HAD A CHANCE

[Culinary]

Balance? There is no balance. This is SPARTA!

[blaargh198]

Oh God, the 300 quotes will start rolling in...
But seriously, this chart and the tier list are 2 pieces of the same puzzle. If there weren't differing matchups, we wouldn't need a tier list because anyone could win a tournament, not just the high tiers.

[Proteus]

Just a quick note to anyone complaining about Nintendo's sense of balance; they had no idea that SSBM's metagame would evolve to the point it has. The game has become so much faster than it was on release and new combos, exploits, etc., have been discovered. The only way to really balance any game is to patch it once players start finding new, arguably overpowered techniques or glitches, and since Melee's offline that's obviously impossible.

Not excusing them entirely though. How they didn't foresee Marth and Sheik dominating the bulk of the cast is beyond me. And yes, with SSBB they should do a better job from the start, plus they'll have the ability to patch if necessary I guess. I'm all for having dozens of equally viable characters.

[tarheeljks]

I don't understand why people care so much about all characters being equally viable. It shouldn't make a difference as long as you have an approximate ranking of characters-- unless you're a fanboy of some character or another.

[Proteus]

Why not? I don't mind the fact that 90% of tournament characters are Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Peach too much, but it'd be great to see more Mario's, Dk's, Pikachu's, etc., instead of just the occasional low tier player (or mid tier for that matter). So I dunno, I guess I'd just like to see more variety on the tournament scene.

[Razgriz]

Ya I agree with Proteus. I think Nintendo should help out those lower-tier characters. It's a shame to see all those really creative and wonderful characters stagnate. However, I am opposed to patching the game, unless its to fix blatant gliches or deal with things like the ****ing wobbles. Honestly now, I'm not about to call the Ice Climbers broken just yet, but that's just annoying as hell.

[blaargh198]

To deal with wobbles, they have two options:
A. Give the IC's better A.I. which doesn't really help since they aren't going to release a new patched melee, and there's no guarantee they'll be in Brawl. This would make it so there was little to no desynching, so Nana probably wouldn't be able to attack as easily while Popo is grabbing.
B. Change the whole mechanics of grabbing. make it so people don't get hitstun while they're grabbed from anything except attacks the person who grabbed them uses. This means however there could be absolutely no team infinite grab combos, making me think this option's no good either.

[arrowhead]

To deal with wobbles, they have two options:
A. Give the IC's better A.I. which doesn't really help since they aren't going to release a new patched melee, and there's no guarantee they'll be in Brawl. This would make it so there was little to no desynching, so Nana probably wouldn't be able to attack as easily while Popo is grabbing.

that would ruin the fun of ICs :(

[Razgriz]

that would ruin the fun of ICs :(

And would prevent ruining tournaments for many people who drive for hours and pay good money to get knocked out in the second round by some autistic eskimos with Down's syndrome and no skill whatsoever.

[Citrussed]

And would prevent ruining tournaments for many people who drive for hours and pay good money to get knocked out in the second round by some autistic eskimos with Down's syndrome and no skill whatsoever.

and what being knocked out by a shiek or falco is any better? Seriously, IC's does take skill though.

[Razgriz]

and what being knocked out by a shiek or falco is any better? Seriously, IC's does take skill though.

If you get knocked out by a Sheik it's because you're too narrow in your selection of characters and need to broaden your choices. If you get knocked out by a Falco you need to at least appreciate the effort he has to put in to moving around like that, and you can escape his combos with proper DI. I just get pissed-off losing to some ******* who may (ChuDat) or may not have skill and watching him sit there pressing A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, and there's nothing I can do about it. Wobbling takes about 20 minutes of practice, and no skill. It's gay.

[D'oH]

Why does this chart have Peach losing to Y link as her worst match? Seriously? It's even at best for Y. Link; Peach can eat through projectiles and he has a lack of a solid kill move at lower percents, plust edgeguarding y. link can get really ugly for him due to all of peach's options.

Also, Peach losing to samus? It's even at best; once again Samus has a lack of a solid kill move outside of downsmash/bair (and fsmash if you can predict them/nair at higher percents), and those aren't going to work until higher percents. Samus also lacks a real way to edgeguard peach since she can eat through missiles with pretty much every single one of her moves; peach can turnip samus' bomb recovery pretty effectively if samus ever has to recover below the stage or far away.

[Mankosuki]

Peach can turnip samus' bomb recovery pretty effectively if samus ever has to recover below the stage or far away.Ah, but you forget about the Suki-jump (aka turnip jump) ;)

It does need to be flipped though. The match up is close to even but has a small advantage to Peach, not the other way around.

[Razgriz]

It doesn't matter what it SHOULD be. This chart, like the tier list, is a representation of what happens in tournaments, not the potential of certain characters vs each other. It just so happens that Y. Links have been kicking the **** out of Peach players in tournaments.

[Samochan]

It doesn't matter what it SHOULD be. This chart, like the tier list, is a representation of what happens in tournaments, not the potential of certain characters vs each other. It just so happens that Y. Links have been kicking the **** out of Peach players in tournaments.

It just happens to be so that this is not a tier list and nevel will be. Even if X character would be kicking Y characters *** in tournaments, that is not valid point when making this list because when the X character is countered by Y character and X characters keep winning more matches, it does not make the actual matchup any easier to character X. Do peaches always lose to marths, sheiks and animals cause they have advantage over her and they're higher on tier list? No, they don't. Whether you lose or not is determied by your skill, not tiers. The fact that sheik rapes Links doesn't have anything to do with the fact that sheik is one of the best characters and link is low tier, because for example, Link goes pretty even with peach that is only 2 spots lower on the tier list than sheik. >_> Sheik rapes links because sheik is what sheik is like and rapes stuff a lot, but it's especially bad for link because of the chaingrabbing, speed, faster projectiles, edgeguarding ect. and it so happens that Link is on the slower side, needles trajectory rapes his recovery, sheik can counter projectiles ect. which have everything to do with matchup but not tiers. Matchup charts are just matchup charts, not tier lists. >_>

[Emblem Lord]

How the **** is Y.link that bad of a match-up for Peach?

I mean, c'mon, it's Peach we're talking about. There's just no friggin way.