All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[BigRick]

The main problem with C.Falcon is that his offense is very good while his defense is awful... This makes it very hard to rate his matchups accurately. In this case, even if Marth can gay Falcon to death, Falcon has the ability to combo Marth into oblivion.

Falcon can kick the crap out of every1 in the game, and every1 can gimp him to death... so when we evaluate a matchup involving Falcon, these two factors should have more importance IMO:

1) Are Falcon's offensive abilities getting negated in a way by the character?
2) How easy it is for Falcon to maintain his momentum in the current matchup?

[phanna]

Sure thing, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VLjNuvze0c&mode=related&search=

He says it at like 38 sec i think...

I am not 100% sure about Cap. being 60-40 over Marth, but it makes sense seeing as Marth really only has edgegaurding on Cap. Ken says that also in the match.

Could you tell me which page Mew2King said that stuff???By the way, I should point out that this chart is for highly skilled, regional tournament level players. For that reason, I don't really give much weight to Chu vs Taj, or Ken's thoughts on pro Falcons. It's not that they aren't correct; they are perfectly correct, for the tiny empirical dataset they represent, but to make a chart for the pro match-ups would be a waste of time since 1) most of these characters wouldn't even be found in top 16 match-ups, and 2) the chart wouldn't represent anything meaningful about meta-games, just be a historical summary. And if it's a historical summary you want, just read tournament results.

And Mew2King's comment I was talking about is here:

phanna

Mewtwo counters Ice Climbers, Taj 3 stocked, and 2-0d chus ICs in tourney last week

this list looks much better than it did last time, but I only got a close look at the characters.

I can assure you that Marth doesn't counter Fox, but the vice versa also isn't true. It's even, trust me on this, I'm probably the best person to ask for this matchup and if anything it's even.

I believe Fox vs Sheik is even too, but If you put a very very slight advantage toward Fox I'm not going to argue since almost everyone is against me on this and arguing in Melee Discussion would be pointless, but don't go beyond this point of very slight.

Based off experience, I think Sheik strongly counters Peach, at very minimum slight counter. I'd say 1 or 2 squares.

I think Marth should counter Peach by 1 or 2 squares probably, probably 2.

Kirby sucks and doesn't do good vs Sheik

Ice Climbers don't rape Sheik either, maybe small advantage.

Fox doesn't strongly counter Bowser, ask PC Chris about this it's not as strong as you put it.But my point from before was, nobody is a better authority of pro match-ups than the pros, but I want to avoid a chart influenced by how certain pros fair against other pros; this is a chart for general character match-ups, not style counters.

[REDRAGON]

I dont understand. You are saying you are making a tier list of pro leval or not??? If you are then should not the pros themselves be the base of the matchups???
If you are not then i think the matchup list is very wrong....
Sorry, just a lil confused.
Btw i agree with Mewtwo2king ALOT. Most his ideas are the same thing i was thinging when i looked at the chart. Ex: Why is Kirby good agaist Sheik. And Sheik pwns Peach. and so on...

REDRAGON

[Cort]

I've learned to just ignore this topic because it's pretty much just based on hypothetical situations that never get reflected in actual match ups because people love making up these arbitrary lists of pros and cons to make themselves feel intelligent.

/rant

[im2emo4myshrt]

Why does jiggs have an advantage on Samus?

[REDRAGON]

I've learned to just ignore this topic because it's pretty much just based on hypothetical situations that never get reflected in actual match ups because people love making up these arbitrary lists of pros and cons to make themselves feel intelligent.

/rant


Your quite true on some of the matchups. But the chart is good for some if not most of it...

[phanna]

I've learned to just ignore this topicI guess that would explain why you're posting in this topic.

because it's pretty much just based on hypothetical situations that never get reflected in actual match upsI'm pretty sure the match-up chart is based on match-ups, though I guess you could argue that each of the hundreds of people who have posted in the thread were all mistaken, thanks for sorting that out single-handedly.

because people love making up these arbitrary lists of pros and cons to make themselves feel intelligent.I'm not sure if you're being a **** to the people who have spent their time writing actually useful, thoughtful posts, or if you are just trashing me, but either way I can assure you this thread is more of a heartache for me than it is for you. Furthermore, I neither created nor maintained this chart to feel intelligent; on the contrary, every time I make concessions to the facts provided by others, I'm admitting my own ignorance in the field, and instead depending on the wisdom of others. I guess this concept is foreign to you, but thanks for making a useful contribution to this thread, the time you invested writing an intelligent post is overtly evident.

/rant

[Cort]

*SWDs and punches phanna in the face*

[thesage]

ness cant hold its own on marth, ever.

Sorry I'm replying to this kinda late, but it's possible. There is a reason he's not as hard as Peach or Sheik. He has his fair, pk fire, and running attack which outrange his sword (and are also good combo starters). Ness can survive a Marth f-smash edgeguard. There some other things too, but I'm to lazy to type them. Ask somebody else...

[phanna]

*SWDs and punches phanna in the face*Hey I had been drinking when I wrote that, so if it's lamerz just ignore it. And I counter your SWD with a ftilt.

And I'll concede this about the chart:

It's all people's opinion. If all the intelligent people argue for the same thing, no matter how wrong it might be, it's what gets put in the chart. I started it because I knew I could make a better one than the 2-4 color 'counter charts' being tossed around at the time, and I wanted to make something purty. As fox would say: MISSYON COMPREE

[Fox128]

Alright I'm a European pro (I'm not so often around here, so maybe you don't know me), I agree about lots of the matchups, but one thing seemed strange to me:

Ganon>Jiggs: 6 ?

So maybe this has been asked a hundred times before, but could you just explain why? I thought Ganon has quite a lot disadventages here (don't know this special matchup too well, however).
The only good finishers with ganon vs Jiggs are, imo, the f-smash, the up-smash and a spike on the ground, and the fair and bair.
However, it's VERY hard to hot with the upSmash, and it's just as hard to hit a good Jiggs with the spike in the ground. In the air, Jiggs also has a big adventage and it's hard for Ganon to even get into range for something against a WoPing Jiggs... so?

[1048576]

Ganon's uair can take out a lot of the attacks in the WoP, I think.

Edit: Woot, smash apprentice

[Fox128]

yeah Ganon's uair is probably the most useful in aerial game, but it's also his weekest, it's good for some damage, but you won't take Jiggs out with that. And Ganons finishers vs Jiggs still suck.

[Mogwai]

And Ganons finishers vs Jiggs still suck.

nope, fair is still a beating vs. Jiggs. and dair on the ground kills stupid early too. usmash and fsmash aren't even close to ganon's best finishers, basically, every air move he has is better at killing, because they don't have stupid amounts of lag, small hitboxes, and disproportionally small knockback, like ganon's smashes do. Just space uair, bair, and fair against Jiggs all game and you'll be fine.

[REDRAGON]

I was looking at the match-ups for Samus and wow Phanna you give Samus to much credit!
There's not way Samus is a 4-6 on Sheik and Ganon! Thoses players are her hardest match-up. At least a 7-3 for Ganon and MAYBE for Sheik also.....
Also for Peach, how does Samus have an advantage on her?!?! The matchup is even without a doubt!!!!
Do you agree??


REDRAGON

[TGM]

this thing is much more accurate. its just low tier may need some work. more people need to play low tier so it can be figured out.

[OuiCaVa11]

Someone sticky this. it's very useful.

[Fallen C]

You're probably pretty busy, but can you give us an estimated time that you will create an updated chart. Much appreciated.

[Banks]

jiggly pwns ganon whatchu talking bout willis

[Raistlin]

Zelda rapes Jiggz, BTW. Her aerials are way too fast and too powerful for Jigglypuff to handle; taking out Jigglypuff's air game severely cripples her. It's a 3 at best for Jigglypuff.

[Magus420]

Jiggs has the advantage on Zelda IMO. Jiggs is faster and more mobile than Zelda, so you can still stay out of her range and be able to get your hits in if you know when they are and aren't able to kick you, and it's tough for Zelda to get around. Just attacking Zelda gets you raped yes. You gotta camp though and not jump into the rape.

[tarheeljks]

nope, fair is still a beating vs. Jiggs. and dair on the ground kills stupid early too. usmash and fsmash aren't even close to ganon's best finishers, basically, every air move he has is better at killing, because they don't have stupid amounts of lag, small hitboxes, and disproportionally small knockback, like ganon's smashes do. Just space uair, bair, and fair against Jiggs all game and you'll be fine.

QFT.

dair on the ground kills stupid early too.

yeah, it can kill at like 65% on fd.

[werty14]

yoshi or link might win:)

[Deathcarter]

The only low tier that has an advantage on Jigglypuff is Pikachu and that is because of his speed, uair juggle, upsmash, and unpredictable recovery. This is definately true since I have read Jiggly players saying Pikachu is terrible for them unless they switch. No other low tier has an advantage since they get edgeguarded real well and they cannot move as fast or as well as Jiggly.

I don't know anything about the Ganon matchup so I am not gonna rate it.

[Raistlin]

"Jiggs has the advantage on Zelda IMO. Jiggs is faster and more mobile than Zelda, so you can still stay out of her range and be able to get your hits in if you know when they are and aren't able to kick you, and it's tough for Zelda to get around. Just attacking Zelda gets you raped yes. You gotta camp though and not jump into the rape."

Good points, but those aerials are just insane. The sweet spot seems to hit all around Zelda, and no matter where I am, I get sweet-spotted. Try and stay away, sweet spot. Try and get all up-ons, sweet spot. Come from below, sweet spot; above, sweet spot! Find someone who's good with Zelda and fight them, you'll see what I'm talking about; that match-up is a b****, man.

[Magus420]

Zelda is another main character of mine, and Ryoko and WoZ both have very good Zeldas. You just have to stay at the right range so you can be out of her effective attack range while still being close enough to exploit her openings (and know where those are). You shouldn't be getting kicked very often if you are attacking at the right times and staying out of range otherwise.

[Raistlin]

Hmmm... all right. I'll take your word for it. I guess I just keep getting over-cautious or over-zealous at just the wrong times. But boy, how do I hate that Zelda. It's so tough to rest her, too, now that my friend has learned not to f-smash me. :-(

[captainlukey]

hey guys just wonderin why sheik counters marth?

[Skler]

I'm still wondering what this HUGE advantage Ness has over Link is. Seeing as Ness gets outranged, comboed easily, edgeguarded easily and is not very heavy to avoid getting pushed off said edge.

[thesage]

Because all that stuff happens to Link even more, but it's not a HUGE advantage. A 6 IMO. If your against a good Ness then it's a 7 for sure though. Ness matchups are hard to say cause they change a lot when you become more technical with him.

[Tera253]

Ness is projectile happy.
why does shiek counter Marth?
~Tera253~

[KevinM]

Hmm i figured that Sheik vs. Marth is about even...

Why does everyone counter bowser :chuckle:

[Dark Sonic]

Ness is projectile happy.
why does shiek counter Marth?
~Tera253~

Cause every tilt she has leads into a Fair that kills him at 60%
Cause her needles destroy Marth's momentum and his recovery sucks without it
Cause her down throw combos into the tilts at any percent
Cause her uair kills him at 85%
Cause her grab range rivals his
Cause her ledge game beats his
Cause her side dodge has less lag than his moves
Cause her dash attack sets him up for a fair and goes under his shield
Cause she can up smash him out of a d-throw at 60 if he doesn't DI properly
Cause her moves come out much faster than his
Cause her dash gets in his range
Cause she's hard to land a hit on
Cause she's hard to land a tipped fair on which is the only thing that actually combos
Cause she's gay and not charmed by marth

A Marth has to be much better than his opponent to beat a shiek (assuming they main shiek) Most people can just use Shiek as a Secondary to completely rape a Marth they would normally be even with.
Answer your question?

[Somebody]

roflpwnt....

Could you be any more vague???

[Dark Sonic]

roflpwnt....

Could you be any more vague???

Yes I could.

[Jeremy Feifer]

Yes I could.

I give ya 1 cool point for that statement...that was hi-lair-ious

[Mogwai]

Cause every tilt she has leads into a Fair that kills him at 60%
Cause her down smash combos into the tilts at any percent
Cause her uair kills him at 85%
Cause she can up smash him out of a d-throw at 60 if he doesn't DI properly

The Marth's you play against must have TERRIBLE DI. You're still mostly right, but those % seem to be based on a Marth who's trying as hard as possible to die...

[wuthefwasthat]

Actually... dsmash->tilt doesnt really happen.
uair isnt -that- good
marth still has better grab range, and grabs are key to this
marths ledge game isnt any worse... she can stall i guess, but shes not that much better.
side dodging would definitely get you punished before long
marth can lightshield
dthrow->usmash doesnt really happen
marth has crazy range and edgeguarding
marth can kill her faster with dair
marth is also gay

[Dark Sonic]

sorry I meant d-throw not down smash. My bad

She can easily side step a grab which will put you in a very bad position so grabbing on your part becomes scarce.

Her up air is good if you happen to be Marth. It may not be Fox's, but it gets the job done.

Marth may have better grab range, but her's is good enough to grab him out of a spaced d-tilt which was normally a safe defensive tactic.

Yes Marth can light shield, but that pushes him out of his grab range too.

D-throw to upsmash happens when they know your trying to save your jump for when they turn around and F-tilt you.

Marth's range is countered by Shiek's insane speed.

Marth doesn't often get to dair while Shiek's fairing the whole match.

Marth had a Girl Friend in Fire Emblem.


Those percentages are based off a Marth that 's instictively trying to DI away from the Shiek in order to escape a combo. Little does he know that DIing away makes things easier for Shiek. No matter how Marth DIies Shiek can follow up, however if Shiek DIies in towards the Marth spacing becomes an issue as well as comboing.

[JBM falcon08]

obviously sheik has an advantage over marth, all characters have their strong points in matchups, its a counter due to sheiks great amount of choices for mistakes made and just in general. out of 9 this matchup is a 65/35 sheiks favor.