All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[Pat/Pro]

ill give 50 bucks to any yoshi or pichu that can beat my ice climbers in best 2 out of 3. Thats how confident I am that the matchup is impossible to win.

[Eggz]

I accept that MM. Are you going to FC?

Hey!
Is that my seat!?
...Oh, and btw, Luigi has favor vs Mario.

[FaceFaceMcFace]

Hey!
Is that my seat!?
...Oh, and btw, Luigi has favor vs Mario.

[thebluedeath1000]

Hey!
Is that my seat!?
...Oh, and btw, Luigi has favor vs Mario.

sorry....eggz forced me into it at gunpoint

[phanna]

RE: Ice Climbers vs Yoshi.

Please refer to peoples' opinions on Ice Climbers vs Sheik. Most think Ice Climbers counter Sheik, one of the best characters in the game, if not go even with her, because of the excellently brutal downthrow downsmash chain throw. Easier and more effective to set up and execute than wobbling.

Now refer to Yoshi vs Ice Climbers. ICies have the same brutal chain throw, but Yoshi is a less effective character than Sheik, to put it mildly. So to say it's anywhere close to Sheik vs Ice Climbers is insanity, and is therefore quite the downhill battle.

================

ps. Chozen I graduated college, should I update this solo or are you still in the works?

[Rob_Gambino]

Since it's so impossible to win, you'd be willing to play for the 5:1 to odds in Phanna's chart? $10 for $50 sounds good. I am a nobody, and I will still win.

[Pat/Pro]

I mentioned this in another topic so forgive me if you read this before. But I said the same thing to KDJ that I could beat any pichu and yoshi in the world with my IC's. Which led to 2 straight money match victorys by me. Im not bragging I just really think the matchup is impossible to win if the ICs are at an above average tournament level. I think me beating one of the if not the best players in the country with a character he uses pretty frequently and a character I dont even play kinda makes my point proven. So you got yourself a deal haha. But I do hope this happens one day and if it does good luck. I wont even wobble just for you.

[56k]

lol you are bragging, no offense. :laugh:

I don't know about Pichu, but Yoshi can definitely beat Ice Climbers.

I never think of a matchup as impossible. Otherwise, I wouldn't be playing G&W in tournaments ;)

Beating a Pichu with Ice Climbers is like beating a Bowser with Peach. The outcome really isn't a surprise at all.

[Pat/Pro]

Beating a Pichu with Ice Climbers is like beating a Bowser with Peach. The outcome really isn't a surprise at all.

I know thats why its not bragging. It would only be bragging if I thought that the accomplishment was difficult to do. Like I said anyone who is an above average level tourney player who knows how to use ice climbers can beat ANY pichu and yoshi. Especially if the IC wobbles. The fact is that even if you kill nana, popo alone is still a better character than yoshi IMO.

Haha I will no longer comment on this. This convo has gone too far. :psycho:

Personally I think G and W is underated anyways. But he is slightly different in that people can lose to him just because they dont know how to play him. Good luck with yoshi and g and w you two, im glad not everyone uses top tier because thats just too boring.

[skrach8]

god dont even get on top tiers being boring. Yeah they are broken. So what. U calling them boring is ur opinion. I KNOW sheik is gay with her tilts and her auto combos as some would like to say, but the statement is just wrong. Fox is uber gay cuz of his god like moves, BUT there are people that choose him cuz they think he is COOL. I think Link is freakin sweet, same goes for ness, DK, MEWTWO!!!!!, etc. Im just rambling on i guess. I just cant stand when people complain bout who they play with, its quite annoying. And NO IM NOT SAYING U WERE COMPLAINING. this is just a premptive warning to anyone who starts *****ing. and again im just rambling.

one question though. Has this whole thread been about how fustrated you are with the character you play with (complaints bout how gay high tier is), or has it been an honest attempt to discuss each and every matchup?

Oh and one more thing. I think a person who plays with a lower tier character that can rape with that character i.e. DIRE VULCAN (G&W) have the potential to be some of the best in the world. thats my opinion. i know i didnt really back it up, but cmon they play with lower tier characters for god sakes. so in short I SALUTE YOU.

p.s. i main marth. tru

[TGM]

yep so how does samus have a advantage on link? it seems impossible for a samus to beat link.

[Shiri]

yep so how does samus have a advantage on link? it seems impossible for a samus to beat link.

:yoshi: Here's how this matchup goes. Five easy steps. Ready?

Step One: Samus runs away.

Step Two: Samus shoots thingies.

Step Three (very important): If Link approaches, crouch cancel.

Step Three.Five: If Link grabs, spotdodge it (it's super slow, so you can't miss it).

Step Three.Five.Five: If Link breaks your crouch cancel, then neutral air him out of whatever he's doing.

Step Four: Jab and forward tilt. A lot.

Step Five: Edgeguard with falling neutral air.

Done. In all seriousness, though, the one thing you have to be careful of are Links that will just run away and boomerang in an attempt to position you for their neutral air. Don't fall for that ****. Please.

[Rob_Gambino]

I go even with Trail everytime we play. I was up 2 stocks to 1 against Chu Dat in tourney pool play last year, but I blew it. None of that really matters, and your words don't "prove" anything. You should come to FC; everyone is going to be there.

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

lol u know wat i just noticed besides sheik, Marth is either even or has an advantage over every character in the game.

y is tht?

[Proteus]

Step Two: Samus shoots thingies.

Can't Link just crouch and use his shield (the Hyrule one, not the glowing circle one) and block all of Samus' thingies? Seems like stalemating this matchup is easy.

[Shiri]

:yoshi: Then wavedash in and jab, bomb off of him, or you might even squeeze a dash grab in there.

[ToP CaT]

you say it like its automatic..like just do "this" and "this" will happen...not everything is guaranteed, especially in pretty even matches it usually comes down to play style ill be link and play you as samus and we would see how much that works

[Plairnkk]

lol u know wat i just noticed besides sheik, Marth is either even or has an advantage over every character in the game.

y is tht?

and since sheik and marth are actually even at top level, that would make marth even or better vs everyone

aka the best char

hence why the reigning champs of smash bros (ken, azen, and perhaps soon to be m2k??) are all marth. =)

[hova]

y are u in melee discussion jon???

i hate you

[squaminator]

and since sheik and marth are actually even at top level, that would make marth even or better vs everyone

aka the best char

hence why the reigning champs of smash bros (ken, azen, and perhaps soon to be m2k??) are all marth. =)

what about KDJ? his marth is sick now and he just won MLG and Vesticle.
and pc chris? and chu dat? and isai? what about them? i'm sure isai would compete for if not consistently snatch first place if he really wanted to. but yeah, kdj m2k azen ken marth, kdj pc azen isai sheik, kdj ken m2k pc isai fox, pc falco. there's the top tier breakdown for you.

[Pat/Pro]

Umm squam kdj only used shiek for that tourney. His main is shiek not marth.

[St. Viers]

^^but he still uses marth, which is all Squirm was saying (notice he puts kdj in the shiek and fox section).

[MrMojoRisin]

Why is grid showing up as a red X? What happened to the picture?

[MookieRah]

I'm going to say Marth is so ****ed good because of how easy it is for him to punish mistakes as well as how ****ed scary his sword's tip is. It's a great combo that works so well with his attributes and gives people who are smart enough to trick opponents the means to destroy with much less tech skill than the other top tiers (save for sheik, but I don't think her tech at top level is much easier if easier than Marth's to be honest).

[Dark Sonic]

Since spacing is part of tech skill, then Marth does require quite a bit of tech skill. A missed sweetspot on a single fair can ruin the opportunity to start or continue a combo. A SHFFL'd fair with bad spacing will allow your opponent to shield grab you nearly every time. It is easy for Marth to punish mistakes, but IMO it's much easier for the other high tiers to punish his.

[squaminator]

despite how everybody playerhates sheik, she's not the easiest. she still requires quite a bit of knowledge of the character and priority and timing and spacing. he bair does very little if you don't hit with te end of it. Her dair has no priority, making it preferrable to nair people below you to get back on the ground, especially against marth, unless you surprise the marth with perfect timing. Also, the comboing changes depending on di, and lotsa tilts combo, but which direction? it depends. in front you ftilt or dsmash, inside you you utilit, slightly above utit or usmash depending on falling speed.

Sheik is still a noob cannon, but to take her to a high leve requires a lot of talent, just as much as any other character.

we don't care about tech skill in this thread, though. please mark this post as spam and move on.

[MookieRah]

Since spacing is part of tech skill, then Marth does require quite a bit of tech skill.
Hmm, kinda sorta. It's a lot easier to learn good spacing (which is actually very important for EVERY charcter btw, very much so for the hyper tech guys like fox and falco) than some of the higher end fox/falco/ICs stuff. Spacing also isn't something that is as fatiguing as most of the harder tech skill stuff is. I'd say it's lumped into the category of figuring out the timing of Marth's aerials and what not. Once you figure it out and start working on it, you just do it without thinking.

Marth is still one of the easiest characters to pick up, cause he is more mind gaming than tech skill. Another thing, while sheik is in the same boat in terms of tech she has a lot of oddities that people shy away from, something that Marth doesn't have. I for one can't stand how she is slow as **** in the air and fast as balls on the ground. It's like she is jumping into water instead of air. I'm just weird though.

[Shai Hulud]

For Peach to punish mistakes, C-stick down.

Peach is the easiest character to pick up.

[Pat/Pro]

For Peach to punish mistakes, C-stick down.

Peach is the easiest character to pick up.

That is something pretty ridiculous to say. Peach is not easy to pickup. Shes only easy to pickup and beat noobs with. Shes actually pretty hard to become good with.

[Plairnkk]

Umm squam kdj only used shiek for that tourney. His main is shiek not marth.

i would still say kdj's main is fox.

[phanna]

Sheik or Peach are probably the "easiest" character to play in terms of doing well amongst your friends when everyone is just starting to play, just because general mashing seems to do the best with these characters.

For players who are learning more advanced techniques of the game, Yoshi's roll makes him appealing to try, and similarly Samus for her missile spams.

The least technical character, and therefore the "easiest" at the highest levels of play, would probably be Marth, simply because Marth has no tech skills unique to himself, and the most difficult move to execute is only short-hop double fair. I mean edge-guarding, spacing, short hops, fast falls, shield-grabbing, l-cancelling, chain-grabbing, comboing, timing and all the usual suspects are definitely critical, and your skill with the character will be the combination of your skill with these various aspects.

Fox and Falco are the "easiest" to win with, once you've mastered the techniques.

So it depends on what one means by "easy," but the answers seem to come from the top of the tier list regardless.

[halfDemon]

i would still say kdj's main is fox.

I concur.

I think Sheik is the easiest to use, both as a scrub (maybe Marth for scrubs, actually) and in high level of play. Then Falco, since basically all you need is SHL (which takes a few hours of practice) and pillaring.

[Deathcarter]

[ Then Falco, since basically all you need is SHL (which takes a few hours of practice) and pillaring.[/QUOTE]

Falco is one of the hardest top/high tiers along with Fox to short hop with on a regular basis. A accidental full jump with Falco would allow an opponent to pick themselves up and prepare a counter attack. No person that just picked up the game will short hop continuosly( assuming they know about or know how to short hop) without making those accidental full jumps.

[squaminator]

deathcarter, falco is extremely easy to short hop with. He's easier than marth, sheik, peach, c.falcon, g&w, and many other characters. he has a huge startup time before he actually jumps.

halfdemon, there is a lot that is a part of SHL. the height of the laser, the timing of the fast fall, and when to apply it. In FD its easier to know when to apply it than in a platformed stage. In addition, you need more than pillaring. You need to know how to catch people in their shield in order to pillar. Also, you need a variety of approaches, good edgeguarding skills, a whole lot of tech skill for the shine-back air, ledgehop double lazer, shine combos, and other stuff like that.

in addition, the advantage you gain as sheik in high levels of play are slim except against marth. He isn't the easiest to work with. You can rely on being highly technical with fox and falco, but sheik requires mindgames. A whole lot of mindgames. And the application of what move to use when isn't that easy.

i'm not trying to say that you are wrong. I'm trying to say that you shouldn't make such a statement lightly and without proof.

[Deathcarter]

Squiminator, your right. It IS extremely easy to short hop with Falco , but someone new to the game still probably won't short hop much anyway (that last part was at halfdemon).

[halfDemon]

Squiminator, your right. It IS extremely easy to short hop with Falco , but someone new to the game still probably won't short hop much anyway (that last part was at halfdemon).

So what? That doesn't make him harder, it still makes him easier to use.

Squam, sure, there's quite a bit to the SHL, but it still doesn't take that long to consistently do. After a few hours, anyone familiar with advanced Smash can SHL quite well. As for when to apply it, I would say that is a bad arguement. When do you apply lasers with Fox? When do you pull turnips with Peach? When do you Raptor Boost with Falcon? This all just takes experience and is therefore a shared trait. When to apply something isn't part of learning to actually do it. Besides, for the most part, you SHL to camp, approach, and get your opponent to approach you.

SHL leads to shielding. Which then commences pillaring. Approaching generally consists of SHL and ending in the beginning of pillaring. Edgeguarding isn't tricky: laser when at a distance, edgehog when close, then DSmash/FSmash when able. Done. How much tech skill do you need for shine > BAir? Shine, jump, BAir. Where's the "whole lot" of tech skill? Ledgehop double-lasers takes the same amount of practice than double-FAiring with Marth, or edgehop bomb-pulling with Link. Just timing really. Shine combos is a part of pillaring.

Pillaring is just like comboing with anyone else. Follow DI and attack with something to keep the combo going. Only difference is pillaring lasts much longer than most other combos, except chainthrows. Pillaring is actually quite easy. Being flashy takes A LOT of skill, as SHFFLAUA > UTilt > shine > shine > DAir > shine > etc... is quite hard, but effective pillaring is quite easy. Nothing fancy needed, just follow DI and shine/DAir appropriately.

Sheik is fast, strong, and easy to combo with. Mindgames are needed, yes, but they're also needed for landing a waveshine on Peach with Fox; unless the Peach is letting the Fox randomly run up and shine, he's going to have to do something to pull off that initial shine. Sheik's combos are easy to pull off because of little lag allowing you to follow your opponents and their DI that much faster. Not to mention all of the combos where DI is hardly important, ie. FTilt > FAir on so many characters. Also, do you know how many characters can be chaingrabbed/psuedo-chaingrabbed by Sheik?

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I'm just trying to say that the abovementioned characters are relatively easy to use when compared to others.

[/long_post]

[squaminator]

all you need with marth it to be able to up-throw and understand that you have an advantage while you are under the person. Also, his grab range is rediculous and he can chain-throw space animals quite well, as well as combo them. Also, he has the most priority in the game, and he easily can keep all characters away from him except for sheik.

fox can combo his dair into a shine or a grab, and either way it leads to a usmash usually (waveshine-usmash on non space animals, grab uthrow usmash or chaingrab space animals). The dair isn't that hard to land either. in addition, somebody who can shl can control the match almost as well as a falco who does the same. The shine spike can be a 0% death, which is very rare. The wall infinites are easy and also reward you with a one stock lead.

see? i can do it too. And there are ways around the SHL of falco besides shielding. If sheilding was the only option, then a falco could just shl until the shield broke. This isn't really the place to agrue who's what tier and who's easy to compete with. This is better suited for specific matchups.

[halfDemon]

Marth is spacing, spacing, spacing. Which takes a lot longer to practice than SHL/pillar.

Fox is... well Fox is Fox. He's top for a reason. Lol.

Okay. Let's agree to disagree.

[Plairnkk]

I concur.

I think Sheik is the easiest to use, both as a scrub (maybe Marth for scrubs, actually) and in high level of play. Then Falco, since basically all you need is SHL (which takes a few hours of practice) and pillaring.

if u think sheik is extremely easy to use at a high level, then why dont u see sheiks out there swiping MLGS? no, its fox falcos and marths, 99% of the time.

[Drolian]

Um, in the chart. On one part, it says Link vs. Peach is 50/50. But in the other part, it says it's 60/40.