All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[Cort]

What do you mean exactly, just throw him on a platform and he sucks? It's not like Peach all of a sudden gets a huge advantage cause DK is on a platform, she really has no good approaches when DK is in such a position.

Care to elaborate some more? I'd like to get better at the matchup anyway :)

[shotafan]

Wha? DK is still in this game? >_< I totally forgot.

[pkmvodka]

What do you mean exactly, just throw him on a platform and he sucks? It's not like Peach all of a sudden gets a huge advantage cause DK is on a platform, she really has no good approaches when DK is in such a position.

Care to elaborate some more? I'd like to get better at the matchup anyway :)

I think she does have a good approach, throw him, float to be a little above the platform and then float cancel stuff into downsmash. It will pretty much always hit. Also, i've seen auto CCs because the fair/nair would push me off the platform, resulting in me getting full downsmash hits. I don't know, I just think it's easy to poke DK's shield when you force him on landing on platforms, especially with peach.

[BigRick]

sum1 should make a new chart... just compare matchups from Fox to DK so that we have a smaller chart

And it should use a score system instead of the ''best out of 9'' approach

[Cort]

I beat Bum in winners of a NY weekly last weekend.

And then lost to him in losers >_>

Yeah, dsmash is really all Peach has against DK, as well as turnip approaches and praying for low % gimpy edge hogs with a tennis racket, possibly.

Otherwise, DK is pretty tough.

[phish-it]

I beat Bum in winners of a NY weekly last weekend.

And then lost to him in losers >_>

Yeah, dsmash is really all Peach has against DK, as well as turnip approaches and praying for low % gimpy edge hogs with a tennis racket, possibly.

Otherwise, Bum is pretty tough.

Sure It's not DK's worst match-up, but Peach's ridiculous priority makes it one of the more difficult ones.

[CPTNfalcon]

How is Falcon vs Samus a 7 in favor of Falcon?

[Cort]

The fact that he's a smart player might also have something to do with it.

[gn0m]

Hmm there seem to be a slight error in the list. If you check Peach match-up against Link it sais "4" and Links match-up against Peach sais "5"...

[KevinM]

Theres many slight errors in that list

[Cort]

I wouldn't call them "slight" This list is just fairly old and produced by someone who threw out many hunches in creating this by himself, basically.

[Rapid_Assassin]

Sure It's not DK's worst match-up, but Peach's ridiculous priority makes it one of the more difficult ones.

Peach is "one of the more difficult matchups" for just about every character...

[gn0m]

I wouldn't call them "slight" This list is just fairly old and produced by someone who threw out many hunches in creating this by himself, basically.

I’m not talking about the accuracy of the actual numbers. I know this is phannas idea of mach-ups. The sum of each match-up must however be 10 and between Link and Peach it’s not.

[phanna]

I’m not talking about the accuracy of the actual numbers. I know this is phannas idea of mach-ups. The sum of each match-up must however be 10 and between Link and Peach it’s not.No, this isn't my idea of match-ups, even the first try was a marriage of my ideas and what I read on the forums:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2009690#post2009690

Since then, the chart has changed a fair amount, and that was me doing what people told me to (catering to the intelligent majority).

I'm updating the chart slightly to have a more conservative opinion of some of the supposed "counter" match-ups such as Sheik-Ganon, Pikachu-Jigglypuff, etc.

I also corrected the 1 point disparity between Link/Peach and Peach/Luigi.

On the left is the most recent version that has just been replaced with the picture on the right:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2862/phannassbmcharactermatcdp9.th.gif (http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2862/phannassbmcharactermatcdp9.gif)http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/786/phannassbmcharactermatcec9.th.gif (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/786/phannassbmcharactermatcec9.gif)

[gn0m]

No, this isn't my idea of match-ups, even the first try was a marriage of my ideas and what I read on the forums:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2009690#post2009690

Since then, the chart has changed a fair amount, and that was me doing what people told me to (catering to the intelligent majority).
I'm updating the chart slightly to have a more conservative opinion of some of the supposed "counter" match-ups such as Sheik-Ganon, Pikachu-Jigglypuff, etc.

I also corrected the 1 point disparity between Link/Peach and Peach/Luigi.

On the left is the most recent version that has just been replaced with the picture on the right:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2862/phannassbmcharactermatcdp9.th.gif (http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2862/phannassbmcharactermatcdp9.gif)http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/786/phannassbmcharactermatcec9.th.gif (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/786/phannassbmcharactermatcec9.gif)

Alright, good stuff

[BigRick]

Is this match-up chart open for discussion?

If so I'd like to point out a few matchups that should be talked about.

1) Marth v Fox (6-4) - Many people think that this matchup is 5-5, and it should be IMO if you list Marth v Falco at 5-5

2) Sheik v Falco (4-6) - I suggest a 5-5 rating because Falco is very gimpable.

3) Samus v Link (7-3) - Samus is big and she's not that fast... Link likes it. Projectile spamming, vertical kills and ranged edgeguards makes Link a threat for Samus... 5-5 matchup IMO

It seems like Falcon is a very underrated character, even though he is easy to kill, his very powerful combo-based offense allows him to dish the rape back.

2) Falcon v Falco (3-7) - A more conservative opinion should be taken here, 6-4 would be a better indication because Falco can also be killed in no time

3) Falcon v Sheik (3-7) - same as Falcon v Falco

4) Falcon v Peach (4-6) - This matchup should be listed as 5-5, Peach has a harder time dealing with faster characters. Falcon's offense is still very effective against Peach.

5) Falcon v Doc (7-3) - I don't see why Falcon rapes doc 7-3 while Falcon goes even with Mario 5-5. If it's because of recovery I don't think it's a reason for a 2 point difference... I suggest a 6-4 rating.

Hmm... I think that's enough for now.

[WaveShiner X]

Uhh... is this chart even right? half of it seems like bs

[cablepuff]

Uhh... is this chart even right? half of it seems like bs


1) Marth v Fox (6-4) - Many people think that this matchup is 5-5, and it should be IMO if you list Marth v Falco at 5-5.


I think this is even.,


2) Sheik v Falco (4-6) - I suggest a 5-5 rating because Falco is very gimpable.

You spend more time fighting on stage than off stage.


3) Samus v Link (7-3) - Samus is big and she's not that fast... Link likes it. Projectile spamming, vertical kills and ranged edgeguards makes Link a threat for Samus... 5-5 matchup IMO

Link outspams samus , it is 7 to 3 in favor of link. Also his aerial hurts. Probably samus 2nd worst matchup, worse than ganon and marth.



3) Falcon v Sheik (3-7) - same as Falcon v Falco

This is 5-5.


5) Falcon v Doc (7-3) - I don't see why Falcon rapes doc 7-3 while Falcon goes even with Mario 5-5. If it's because of recovery I don't think it's a reason for a 2 point difference... I suggest a 6-4 rating.


This is not only recovery but priority issues. Falcon netural air just cut through pills and he has tons of other stuff....

I

[annoying1359]

Link outspams samus , it is 7 to 3 in favor of link. Also his aerial hurts. Probably samus 2nd worst matchup, worse than ganon and marth.

Are you kidding me? Seriously? Does Link's nair beat Samus's nair?

I honestly don't understand how link out-spams Samus (aka Spamus). Bomb and boomerang are his most commonly used projectile, both can be stopped by a missile, not to mention how much faster Samus can MC compared to Link pulling out bombs, then throwing them. Samus can also move while SSFMC'ing, pressuring Link.

[BigRick]

Haha, I knew that cablepuff would be attracted by this thread.

- Super Missiles only move in a straight line. Bombs and boomerangs do not.
- Link can combo of his projectiles. Samus can't.
- Samus is restricted to platforms and ground while spamming. Link isn't.

About the Falcon/Doc matchup... I don't think that Falcon being able to cut through pills should matter... pills are overrated in general anyway. Also it doesn't seem that Mario has more priority Doc in overall...

[Sliq]

Are you kidding me? Seriously? Does Link's nair beat Samus's nair?

I honestly don't understand how link out-spams Samus (aka Spamus). Bomb and boomerang are his most commonly used projectile, both can be stopped by a missile, not to mention how much faster Samus can MC compared to Link pulling out bombs, then throwing them. Samus can also move while SSFMC'ing, pressuring Link.

Sure, the missiles can shoot faster, but you know what you do then? You jump the missile and pull out a bomb AT THE SAME TIME. Boom! You avoided the missile AND have a bomb. not to mention the fact that Link can almost immediately attack after he throws his bomb, while Samus is restricted to missile canceling on the ground.

When Link gets within medium range, the Samus' spam game goes to crap, because if they try to SHM, then you throw the boomerang either up or down and hit her before she reaches the ground. And if the Link is smart, he should have a bomb before he throws the boomerang. Boomerang, bomb, aerial. Rinse and repeat.

Get the Samus off the edge, throw your boomerang, bombs, and hell, shoot your arrows at Samus, disrupting her bomb jump. If she tried to come in from above, throw boomerang up, throw bombs straight up, and out prioritize with up air. Link's projectiles far outrank Samus' in combo-ability and diversity.

Not to mention the fact that Link's arrows, in the air and as they sit on the ground, can stop missiles and a charge shot. Of course, you can always sit still and block the shot with the Hylian Shield...which I do because I'm that awesome.

Bomb into dair rapes Samus, as his dair has awesome knockback and does 22%. Link has a lot on Samus if the Link knows how to efficiently spam (and he should, otherwise he is probably losing).

[Shmooguy]

I don't think there should be an A-0 rated matchup for any characters. I apologize if this has been addressed already, but wouldn't that mean that (for example), a Mewtwo has absolutely zero chance of beating a Marth?

First of all, practically speaking, that simply isn't true. Even assuming equal skill, any character has a chance to beat any other character at any given time. Secondly, Taj's Mewtwo beat Azen's Marth at Super Champ Combo. I think that proves my point right there.

[annoying1359]

But her aerials can cancel out boomerang....

Samus's recovery is way better than Link's, when you get low enough Link's projectile can be so much harder to hit with. Link fall much faster, and can only rely on his grapple and questionably good bomb jumps. Samus has bombs, Smash missiles, homing missiles, and a dair to edgeguard with.

Yes, Link's arrows can block projectile, but then what? Unless you feel like firing another arrow, Samus can outprioritize any projectiles with he awesome ftilt.

OR CATCH FRICKING BOMBS.

It is true that Samus is not quite as good at close range, but she still isn't a 7-3 match. Her nair > all, she can CC dsmash, ftilt is fast, can be angles for shield stabbing, and good priority. A grab to dthrow goes into almost any attack at most percents. Her bombs can be used for more than recovery -- SWD'ing, or pressuring your opponent. Her dash attack has great priority, is fast, and has good range.


Now is the time you pull out the "Samus's grab sucks" card, right? Right. Yes, it does suck, but it 1) can be lengthened and 2) isn't used so often anyway. Her upB out of shield beats almost anything, and can be done out of shield.


There's also the issue of stages. Samus likes big stages, with or without platforms. Platforms help with platform missile canceling. Bigger stages highlight her recovery skills. Now how many stages fall into these categories? Nearly all random stages. She can counter pick Dreamland (which is random). Samus can DI anything (almost) you throw at her and still live. Huge ceilings help with her floatiness.

phanna, I've noticed that you lowered some of Ness's match-ups and I'm wondering why.

[BigRick]

Annoying, would you accept a 5-5 rating like I proposed for Samus/Link?

And Shmooguy is right... only character that goes 0-A against every1 is Sandbag...

[Sliq]

But her aerials can cancel out boomerang....

Yeah, because getting a Samus in the air is a bad thing, especially when you've got a high priority up air. Samus is to floaty to do any good in the air. Note: you can't block the bomb with an aerial as the explosion hitbox is what matters, not the bomb. The boomerang is simply a buffer in between bombs.

Samus's recovery is way better than Link's, when you get low enough Link's projectile can be so much harder to hit with. Link fall much faster, and can only rely on his grapple and questionably good bomb jumps. Samus has bombs, Smash missiles, homing missiles, and a dair to edgeguard with.

Samus' isn't recovering against Link, she's dying off of the top, from which there is no recovery. Samus' recovery can be extremely predictable due to the slow nature of it. If you try and sweet spot beam, Link just falls off of the ledge under the beam, jumps, and bairs, forcing you to use your up b. The same could be said for link, except Link is much quicker in the air then Samus, and falls faster, making him less predictable. Plus his hook shot is faster to reach the edge, and he can "bounce" over the Samus from far away, or fall below the edge for a sweet spot.

Samus bombs aren't that good for much of anything, sans shield pressuring and recovery. The dair is a meteor smash, and is therefore cancelable, not to mention relatively tricky to pull off. Homing missiles would only be a problem when recovering, and even then you just up b into them AND THEN hookshot, instead of attempting a hookshot and getting missiled in the face.

Yes, Link's arrows can block projectile, but then what? Unless you feel like firing another arrow, Samus can outprioritize any projectiles with he awesome ftilt.

Samus' missiles are extremely predictable, wherein Link has multiple options for his boomerang, his bombs following an arc pattern, and his arrows completely shutting down Samus' charge shot and missiles. Also, Link can throw his boomerang faster than Samus can shoot missiles if he is close enough and he catches the boomerang on the ricochet. This is heavily reliant on the distance between him and Samus, and even at farther distance when this doesn't work, it just makes missiles easier to dodge.

You can't out prioitize the bombs, because they explode, creating a knew hitbox. By simply f tilting the projectiles, you are putting yourself on the defensive. If the Link just keeps it up, he'll find a hole and punish it.

OR CATCH FRICKING BOMBS.

Good luck with that.

It is true that Samus is not quite as good at close range, but she still isn't a 7-3 match. Her nair > all, she can CC dsmash, ftilt is fast, can be angles for shield stabbing, and good priority. A grab to dthrow goes into almost any attack at most percents. Her bombs can be used for more than recovery -- SWD'ing, or pressuring your opponent. Her dash attack has great priority, is fast, and has good range.

I would agree that 7-3 is a little extreme.

Her nair is good, but it is also dampered by her high short hop and slow fall speed, problems which Link does not have.

Link is also a proficient CC'er.

F tilt is laggy enough to be punished if shielded (up b out of shield or shield grab down throw up air).

Samus will rarely get grabs, and even then her down throw can be easily DI'd away from and then teched.

SWD isn't a key technique to being good with Samus, and even then, you aren;t using the bombs for anything anyways. I already said bombs are good for "pressuring", but only if they shield (i.e. run at them and triple bomb their shield followed by a dair).. If you just keep bombing, the Link will just smack you with projectiles.

Her dash attack can be shielded and punished easily. Link's projectiles and shffl are harder to due l-canceling. Samus can't shffl effectively due to slow fall speed and high short hop.

Now is the time you pull out the "Samus's grab sucks" card, right? Right. Yes, it does suck, but it 1) can be lengthened and 2) isn't used so often anyway. Her upB out of shield beats almost anything, and can be done out of shield.

Link's grab also sucks, but works more so against Samus then vice versa to the sheer amount of ground moves Samus do due to non-existant shffling.

The extendor isn't a key move in Samus' arsenal, and I find using wouldn't break the match.

Up b out of shield is easily punished if you see a pattern in the Samus' defensive game. If the Samus is consistently Screw Attacking out of shield, sffl an aerial and then shield, followed by up air or dair. If the Samus catches on, and doesn't spam it, her only real options are to WD out of shield and tilt, in which case you shield the tilt and retreat for another projectile war, which the Link should win anyways.

In this situation, the Samus can try and mindgame a grab, but is easily punished with a dair if missed.

There's also the issue of stages. Samus likes big stages, with or without platforms. Platforms help with platform missile canceling. Bigger stages highlight her recovery skills. Now how many stages fall into these categories? Nearly all random stages. She can counter pick Dreamland (which is random). Samus can DI anything (almost) you throw at her and still live. Huge ceilings help with her floatiness..

Platforms also help Link avoid missiles and help with his projectile game, considering his boomerang can be thrown downward and upward, and his bomb follow an arc.

Pokemon Stadium's ceiling is the second lowest of the neutrals (following YS), and almost all of the transformations help Link control the area with projectiles (fvck rock).

Battlefield is my favorite neutral with Link, due to the platforms and the bottom center which can be grappled as a mindgame and to help recover in a tight spot. The same can be said for Samus, but her up lacks some of the vertical and horizontal recovery that Link's has, making this more risky for her to perform. This stages ceiling isn't high enough to pose a problem.

YS and FoD are both bad stages for Link do to the lack of projectile spam capabilities, and also because FoD has a deceptively high ceiling.

Dreamland poses a threat due to the aforementioned reasons, but is still winnable with Link.

Samus is best played as a defensive character, just like Link, except Link is better at playing defensively against a Samus due to the best defense is a good offense mantra, being that of the projectile spam.

Zelda is a bad character, but is still a soft counter to Jigglypuff.

Edit: it should be known that I am currently bored at work, hence the wall of text.

[NJzFinest]

Link vs Samus is even.
Disagree? Talk to HugS or Trevyn >.>

[Raistlin]

Zelda is a bad character, but is still a soft counter to Jigglypuff.


I still think Jiggylpuff has a 3 against Zelda, because I have a friend who is only mediocre with her, and he hapes every Jigglypuff he comes across. That ***** can't be combo'd and is very difficult to rest, and basically has two interchangeable smash attacks in the air. Get hit by 4 of those (or three on a small stage) and you die. They are not easy to avoid because they got sweet spots all over place and are at about the same range of a back air from Jigglypuff. I just don't see what Jiggs can do to win against any equally skilled Zelda.

[phanna]

I'm inclined to believe that Samus and Link are 5-5. Zelda-Jigglypuff is an interesting match-up, because Zelda is pretty proficient at spacing Jigglypuff, with much more brutal aerials, and can only really be rested at very low percents, or with a drill-rest.

Secondly, Taj's Mewtwo beat Azen's Marth at Super Champ Combo. I think that proves my point right there.The front page specifically says "highly skilled" - this issue has come up before, and Mew2King quoted me very specific players' match-ups against each-other. That's a moot point. How uncanny and singularly unique players handle match-ups has very little bearing on this chart. Chu-Dat, Taj, Bum, Gimpyfish, HugS, Timmy, Tommy, etc. are all in a league of their own, and I'm not trying to construct a chart of THEIR match-ups. Unless everyone else gets generally that good with the character, it has no meaning for this chart, which is made for the general tournament-going public. Your John Q, not your Mew 2.

Ask yourself this question: At a state tournament, where you have generally good players of those characters, who are frequent tournament attenders, and play their character well (but are not renowned for being obscenely above and beyond others with that character), how well would they do against someone similar with a different character?

And there are definitely match-ups that are 0-A, not because the character totally sucks, but that you would simply not expect them to WIN any in that match-up. They MIGHT, but if that's not the expectation, then it's not the listed result. I'm not saying each match can't be close, even a high-% one-stock, but what would you expect, across the world, of all well-skilled tournament-goers, in that match-up.

phanna, I've noticed that you lowered some of Ness's match-ups and I'm wondering why.People went on a multi-page tirade about how over-inflated Ness' numbers were. Are there any you feel were a step in the wrong direction?

[NJzFinest]

I'm inclined to believe that Samus and Link are 5-5.

Yes...

High five!!!

[Magus420]

Jiggs is more mobile/faster than Zelda. That's all that matters. Zelda does not have the advantage. Most Jiggs players aren't patient or familiar enough with the matchup to know when to move into range and pick their hits and end up jumping into the rape. This would be a bad thing.

[Skler]

Link vs. Peach = even? I'm not aware of anything Link has in this matchup aside from decent combos at low %s. Aside from that Link's spam doesn't matter (except bombs, and you can't spam bombs) and Peach is faster, has more priority and can actually edgeguard. Peach can also grab in this matchup, something Link can't really do at all.

[Sync99]

I think Peach vs Link is right. No exact reason why I think so other than that my friends do better with him than other low tier characters against my Peach and only my Peach. Of course, I'm not the best player in the world at the peak of my meta-game (refers to old definition of tier list >.> <.<)

The chart is so pretty, I'm making it my wallpaper.

And then I'm putting a giant copy of it on my ceiling above my bed.

[NJzFinest]

Idk, I think spam does matter, but not as much as it normally would since Peach has gay turnips (which>Link's spam). Also Link has spacing and has an easier time killing Peach than Peach has killing Link. Actually, Peach just has trouble killing, period.

[Sync99]

Idk, I think spam does matter, but not as much as it normally would since Peach has gay turnips (which>Link's spam). Also Link has spacing and has an easier time killing Peach than Peach has killing Link. Actually, Peach just has trouble killing, period.

gay turnips indeed, nice word choice. but yeah 99% of my kills on link are fthrow, which means he lives till like 150% every time on FD

[BigRick]

Idk, I think spam does matter, but not as much as it normally would since Peach has gay turnips (which>Link's spam). Also Link has spacing and has an easier time killing Peach than Peach has killing Link. Actually, Peach just has trouble killing, period.

Turnips doesn't beat bombs+rang

Link/Y.Link spam is effective on Peach, cause she's slow/floaty... kinda like Samus

[UTD Zac]

I ran into a really good link player at a tournament a few days ago. This guy obviously plays Link as his main, and I would almost go as far to say as he is in a league of his own like the others mentioned by phanna. I don't think he is THAT good, but enough so to be worth mentioning.

I bring him up because him and I went even as Peach vs. Link. It was too close. Peach is my main. I definitely know things about Peach normal Peach players don't and I'm currently ranked 2nd in Dallas area. I had a hell of a time against this Link player. Like wtf? Why is a lower tier giving me problems. Anyway the link guy ended up playing bluezaft, currently the best in dallas area, in tournament and beat him in the first 2/3 set. bluezaft and I were only able to bypass the link player by switching to Sheik and going all D-throw on him =( It was bad, but we wanted the money.

[Pat/Pro]

I definitely know things about Peach normal Peach players don't and I'm currently ranked 2nd in Dallas area.

Oh guys listen to him. Hes ranked in a CITY area....he must be really good. I didnt know they even ranked things by less than state.....im an a$$ forgive me.

I would listen to skler, hes the best link player ive ever played and ive played just about everywhere. I dont think its even, probably in Peachs favor although I think by not that much. Im not sure how the combos/grabs into dair really work for link as much as I do for the youngster but im sure they are viable. One plus that link has is the fact that the peach might not be used to the matchup due to the low # of them.

[TGM]

link does good on peach.

6(link)-4

[Simna ibn Sind]

gay turnips indeed, nice word choice. but yeah 99% of my kills on link are fthrow, which means he lives till like 150% every time on FD
that cant be right....ness survives peach's fthrow on FD passed 160% link surely survives longer no?

also: Pat/Pro...lol you live in MA tho...and MA is like the size of Dallas anyway right? lol
lol seriously tho Texas is like the size of 15 Massachusetts

[Pat/Pro]

that cant be right....ness survives peach's fthrow on FD passed 160% link surely survives longer no?

also: Pat/Pro...lol you live in MA tho...and MA is like the size of Dallas anyway right? lol
lol seriously tho Texas is like the size of 15 Massachusetts

Oh no you didnt, dissing Mass is a big no no. First of all Dallas is 385 sq miles while Massachusetts is 10,555 sq miles. No comparison. Plus the population of massachusetts is 1/3 the entire population of all of Texas, not just dallas. Mass is the 13th most populous state. We are jam packed up here. And even with that we STILL don't rank by state. We rank by New England as our region. So saying that you are 2nd is Dallas doesnt really mean that much. But it was a joke anyways.