All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[Luigi Ka-master]

this is what i said:

"btw - ka-master is ridiculous. even so, you shouldnt judge on one player, even if he is amazing, because different styles become ultimately different characters. to use the common example, i bet Aniki sees matchups COMPLETELY differently than Germ"

read that again - by ridiculous, i meant really good. and the other people were talking about just your matchups. i was saying they shouldnt say "oh jiggs is good against falcon cause king rapes them"... aka basing on ONE player.
i wasnt trying to say you were claiming luigi did well against ness.... so... sorry about that

Lol, ohhhhh. A crappy misunderstanding on my part then. I as well am sorry.

Anyways, kinda sad Phanna didn't talk about the Ness-thing in that enourmous post he just made, lol. But oh well. It looks tiring enough as it is XD. Again, great chart Phanna.

[Captain Smashie]

how does young link own peach?

[Mcscruff]

how does young link own peach?

he doesnt.

[Ensee]

This sortof hurts my eyes to look at lol. But great idea, I just think the colors should be different and easier to see and tell what is what.

[1048576]

Is there any way to mod the chart so that just numbers (0-10) show up instead of the colors?

[RedYoshi92]

great job!I found this thread pretty helpful:)

[Mogwai]

how does young link own peach?

No one seems to be fielding this one, so I'll do the best I can:
It's a pretty subtle, but powerful set of advantages. Y. Link's projective spam, coupled with his respectable speed and excellent nair make for a very hard time for peach players. If you can just keep spacing all game and use a steady flow of projectiles, you can really disrupt the hell out of peach and her float game. Plus, when she does get close, a properly spaced nair is just what the doctor ordered. Y. Link's best KO move (dair) is also highly effective vs. Peach, and Peach's notorious dsmash rarely hits Y. Link more than once or twice.

However, I don't really main either of these characters, so I could be wrong, but this is certainly my understanding of the matchup. Please feel free to correct me if you know more about it than me.

[linkmastersword]

also, peach has a hard time edge gaurding the links. and young link has the greatest edge gaurd against a peach who is below the level, link jumps or runs off the level and does a nair. the will make the peach do a premature up b which could lead to certain death. and young link can use his second jump then up and get back from EXTREMELY low depths.

that's about it I'd say.

[Jeremy Feifer]

Everyone, look at the brokenness....

[thesage]

If anyone's interested there's a thread in the Ness forum about his matchups. Still under construction (though it should always be)

[COMMOFDOOM]

use better colors ****it!

[W.Jr]

I'm so surprise Ness is at the bottom.

[Airo]

also, peach has a hard time edge gaurding the links. and young link has the greatest edge gaurd against a peach who is below the level, link jumps or runs off the level and does a nair. the will make the peach do a premature up b which could lead to certain death. and young link can use his second jump then up and get back from EXTREMELY low depths.

that's about it I'd say.

did you forget that peaches can float?

[Mcscruff]

i dont think sheik-fox is even. theres an advantage for fox.

[Jeremy Feifer]

i dont think sheik-fox is even. theres an advantage for fox.

I concer <---if spelled right... I think sheik and fox are not equal....but there really close..so...<_<

[Airo]

i believe it is spelt as concur

however, i dont concur..
there really is no distinctive tecnical advantage at all.

people... if you want to state a point, please also state a reason...
so we can all analytically approach your thesis.

[linkmastersword]

did you forget that peaches can float?


No, and that doesn't matter if link hits them while they are floating. They don't get a second chance at it in the air.

Also, peaches have trouble edge gaurding the links becuase they could always air-dodge hookshot to upb.

that should be enough to prove you wrong, but I could go on.


i believe it is spelt as concur

however, i dont concur..
there really is no distinctive tecnical advantage at all.

people... if you want to state a point, please also state a reason...
so we can all analytically approach your thesis.


this is just plain, down-right hypocritical. you said "there really is no distinctive tecnical advantage at all. " and gave NO REASON FOR IT. so please think a bit more before posting and putting people down.

and sheik gets beat by fox 3-5 I'd say. obviously fox has easier match-ups but his weight/falling speed ruins sheiks infamous dthrow combo advantage and fox is not easy for her to juggle compared to the rest of the cast.

fox however can attack sheik with nair and uairs because sheik has a terrible downward recovery (unlike characters such as falco, samus, etc.)

the drillshine technique destroys sheik, watch some videos and it will be apparent who has the advantage. and if you still think that sheik still isn't at a technical disadvantage then you are sorely and poorly mistaken.


amen.

[Airo]

regards: sry, the following post maybe fairly confusing, as i try and defend myself.


this is just plain, down-right hypocritical. you said "there really is no distinctive tecnical advantage at all. " and gave NO REASON FOR IT. so please think a bit more before posting and putting people down.

well no, im 'not concuring' NOT because i have deep and sufficient knowledge about the matchup. (fox vs shiek)
the only reason im 'not concur-ing' with the previous posters. is because THEY have no reason for it
if you read through most of this thread. you will find that there is a good number of people that post empty opinions, and that just disturbs me.

when i said "there really is no distinctive tecnical advantage at all. " im really just saying that for the heck of it, since everybody else is doing the same. i have no basis for this and so i cant back it up. i apolagize for this part of my post

it really is just one of those, 'im gunna do what you did back to you because thats all the defence from me you deserve' kind of thing.
eg. (person 1: your stupid, person 2: no YOUR stupid)
you get what im saying? o.o

and if you still think that sheik still isn't at a technical disadvantage then you are sorely and poorly mistaken.
amen.

you make me sound like one of those arrogant posters with a biased opinion that blinds and prevents me from accept some sort of truth.
if you notice, im a mewtwo player and i really have no bias for either characters in the matchup.
it doesnt matter to be if fox has the advantage or not
it really goes back to me, just disliking empty posts that other people make.

really, the only point in my post was to request more detail when people make random thesis about the chart.

also, peach has a hard time edge gaurding the links. and young link has the greatest edge gaurd against a peach who is below the level, link jumps or runs off the level and does a nair. the will make the peach do a premature up b which could lead to certain death. and young link can use his second jump then up and get back from EXTREMELY low depths.

that's about it I'd say
well i said 'did you forget peach can float' because i was thinking that peach's float would be capable helping her time her recovery such that she isnt so predictable and that a simple sexkick would be able to land on her.

i just thought that your reason wasnt the good reason why peach's match up with ylink is 5-0
if a sexkick is all you need to edgeguard a peach, lots of other characters would have no problem edgeguarding her.

on top, peach has a discusting airdodge. i think that she has no problem avoiding a nair

basicly, i thought that wesley already said it all. and your final addition wasnt that great.


Also, peaches have trouble edge gaurding the links becuase they could always air-dodge hookshot to upb.


everybody has some sort trouble edgeguarding hookshots.


------------
wow. that was such a workout for my brain 0o
------------

[linkmastersword]

I apologize for such a direct attack on your posts.

and yes, peach's air dodge is fantastic, but no when she's below the level so that can be ruled out. I also believe that peach vs young link should only slight favor yl. I disagree with the idea that y.link strong counters peach. and it's quite possible for peach to out camp young link too.

I have mad respect for you and your mewtwo-ness. what do you think of the match-up between mewtwo/ganon?

[Fonz]

Man if I could count how many of these matchup threads there have been in the past year. Didn't they all end with 20 pages of arguing and frustration then get locked or abandoned? Gonna be pretty difficult to convince everyone about certain matchups :/

[Zodiak-Lucien]

This is an excellant idea, though I think the colors need to be more distinct. ESPECIALLY the greens. I think you should put a blue or something for the best matchups

[Airo]

I apologize for such a direct attack on your posts.

and yes, peach's air dodge is fantastic, but no when she's below the level so that can be ruled out. I also believe that peach vs young link should only slight favor yl. I disagree with the idea that y.link strong counters peach. and it's quite possible for peach to out camp young link too.

I have mad respect for you and your mewtwo-ness. what do you think of the match-up between mewtwo/ganon?


=]

mewtwo vs ganon eh??
the crew i playwith has the #1 ganon in canada.
so i am confident that my basis could be fairly accurate, since im not playing some random ganon that doesnt know what he is doing.

from my experience, ganon's falling speed, weight, and size is quite ideal for mewtwo to combo on. simple combos like dtilt > fair > uair works without flaws
on the other hand, mewtwo's light and floatyness is definately not ideal for ganon to combo on.

however, ganon's approach is fairly aerial and comes with too much knockback for mewtwo to shieldgrab or even fair out of shield, so mewtwo's usual ground approaches of spacing and dtilt/grab cannot work at its best.

mewtwo edgeguards ganon very easily since ganon's UpB is predictable and counterable by mewtwo's Dsmash. on the otherside, ganon has loads of trouble edgeguarding mewtwo since mewtwo's teleported sweetspot cannot be intercept by ganon's usual uair edgeguards.

so in conclusion, i would say that mewtwo DOES have fairly good advantage over ganon.

i would give it an opinionated 5-3. ^_^

[Wilhelmsan]

everybody has some sort trouble edgeguarding hookshots.
I thought you could just let it hit you and if your character has good vertical recovery then Link is falling to his death and you're making your way back up. I might be wrong though.

[Airo]

o.o gl on your timing

[phanna]

I'm seeing some people say Sheik-Fox is even, and others that it's in the favor of Fox. I haven't seen anyone argue that it's in Sheik's favor, so I'm considering making this a 5-4 fight for Fox-Sheik, in Fox's slight slight favor.

And people will always have mixed feelings about colors, but I was curious how people felt about this Blue-Red sample:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2158/betaphannassbmcharactersy5.gif

And since the chart is looking pretty good, I'll probably make a numbers chart sometime in the next few days.

[Airo]

thankyou phanna for your hard work. you are awesome

the new chart is looking good. may i remind you to also supply a new key.

[phanna]

Here's another chart, with even more of the requested color diversity, and in my opinion, less legibility:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/38/betaphannassbmcharacterll1.gif

I would supply a new legend if I change it, of course. Still, the number chart is forthcoming, but unless there's a strong feedback in favor of either of these 2 color alterations, I will be retaining the original format.

[F8AL]

Thank you! I hope to see more of your good work in the future!

[johnkim]

very ambitious project, phanna. thank you for trying to improve the smash community.

[MikulOnIce85]

I'd say that the red-green-blue pattern is the better option, it's more diverse, without being too diverse. This looked like a good idea when I first saw it, and it's a really good idea. Please keep up the good work.

[Reox_8888]

Call me a fool, but why is Falcon slightly better than Doc but even with Mario?

[mood4food77]

i liek the first color diverse one better, only make the greens more distinct, the lighter greens are really hard to tell apart, well here comes my info for a couple of match-ups, i'm still using my old thing of out of 10 always

falcon-doc: 7-3 in falcon's favor
falcon-mario: 7-3 in falcon's favor
falcon-ganon: 7-3 in falcon's favor
falcon-jiggs: 7-3 in falcon's favor
falcon-ICs: 2-8 in ICs favor
falcon-samus: 5-5 (it's really hard to tell who has the advantage, they both combo the hell outta each other)
falcon-marth: 6-4 in falcon's favor
falcon-peach: 6-4 in falcon's favor
falcon-sheik: 3-7 in sheik's favor
falcon-falco: 3-7 in falco's favor
falcon-fox: 3-7 in fox's favor

that's all of falcon's upper tiered match-ups, it seems fairly right

[Mogwai]

blue-red spectrum is the best. Excellent work Phanna, I'm liking this end product very much.

[Sky2042]

The original and the 2nd have merit, but I don't particularly like the 3rd either.

[Gimpyfish62]

this is a horrible chart for us colorblind people LOL

but i do see a lot of dark red on that bowser section xD

[Epsilon52]

i liek the first color diverse one better, only make the greens more distinct, the lighter greens are really hard to tell apart, well here comes my info for a couple of match-ups, i'm still using my old thing of out of 10 always

falcon-doc: 7-3 in falcon's favor
falcon-mario: 7-3 in falcon's favor
falcon-ganon: 7-3 in falcon's favor
falcon-jiggs: 7-3 in falcon's favor
falcon-ICs: 2-8 in ICs favor
falcon-samus: 5-5 (it's really hard to tell who has the advantage, they both combo the hell outta each other)
falcon-marth: 6-4 in falcon's favor
falcon-peach: 6-4 in falcon's favor
falcon-sheik: 3-7 in sheik's favor
falcon-falco: 3-7 in falco's favor
falcon-fox: 3-7 in fox's favor

that's all of falcon's upper tiered match-ups, it seems fairly right

ahh thankyou so much...
i was about to check this but youve done it for me :P

[mood4food77]

no problem, i'll add more stuff later, but i know that ness and g&w are at 4-6 odds on fox in fox's favor

[Skler]

Link either needs to have a better matchup rating vs Ness or a worse matchup against YL. YL is harder to fight then Ness as Link. YL is faster/just as fast as Ness, has bombs that start combos and has a good edgeguard vs Link while being harder to edgeguard. Ness has that fair and dash attack which outprioritize Link, is easy to edgeguard while being unable to edgeguard Link that well and is lighter then YL.

YL also has that nasty projectile game.

[Agile]

This sure does prove the fact that my brother always tried to prove. Roy is alot worse than Marth x.x I realized he was slow, I think he may be slightly heavier, he is a lot stronger than Marth however, especially his counter attack, which however does not last as long. My brother plays as Ganondorf, and Roy's worst enemy just so happens to be him :D haha! thanks for this chart v.v

[phanna]

*** Important: READ ***

• This is a Living Document, at no point will it be determined "Final and complete" - it is subject to tournament upsets, tier list changes, and general opinions. I will update it accordingly.

• This thread is meant to be anything but incendiary -- some characters have better match-ups, and this chart attempts to address that. If you disagree, read the other points in this thread, and post accordingly to help me fix it. The original idea and my original work all began in the Aug 2006 thread Counter Chart (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=80357).

• Characters are listed in descending order according to the 2006 Tier List (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=81928), for simplicities' sake. See the debugging instructions at the end of this post if you want a rating-specific view of the chart, especially as a tool to provide useful feedback.

• Legend:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4985/phannassbmcharactermatcsc5.gif

The chart does exactly what I aught to: You can look at any given square to get the gist of the match-up in the tournament scene. You can look at a line or a row to get the gist of that character in tournaments. You can look at the entire chart at once to see what gave rise to tier lists. I'm not going to confuse the chart with more colors or numbers.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/6604/phannassbmcharactermatcgx1.gif

Archive:
Dec 15 2006 (http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8524/phannassbmcharactermatcmw6.gif)
Dec 16 2006 (http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/5605/phannassbmcharactermatcxv9.gif)
Dec 22 2006 (http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1198/phannassbmcharactermatcpa5.gif)
animated .GIF coming soon to show all history in one picture

*** 'Debugging' Instructions: ***

• Included in this post is a gif which cycles through each of the ratings 0-10. After you open it in a new window/tab, press the [ESC] key on your keyboard to freeze it for analysis. Refresh the page to reset it, and repeat as desired. Post your opinions and suggestions for improvement.

Character Match-up Ratings 0-10 (ESC to freeze, F5 to restart)

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6030/phannassbmcharactermatcpd8.th.gif (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phannassbmcharactermatcpd8.gif)

Thank you for your time. Since this graph is essentially an array of values 0 through 10, once we get the specifics more nailed down, I will be able to perform some very interesting matrix calculations, including a statistic tier list, and a best secondary main for each character (to counter your main's counters).Record of the first post that I am now replacing with http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9692/phannassbmcharactermatchg4.gif