Fuz vs Marth

[Brookman]

I'd like to get a Fox vs Marth discussion going to help Wolf's topic and the fox forums in general. I request that people who have no idea what they are talking about refrain from posting, and if you are going to post please post with intelligence and depth, if you are just going to come in and say 'upthrow up air' don't bother please, there's (slightly) more to the match up than that. Discuss counter picks, how to DI certain combos/chain grabs/whatever, just try to actually contribute rather than spam mindlessly.

[EnigmaticCam]

I main pika and can beat my friend's marth, but when I switch to fox he usually beats me. Understandable, as I just recently picked Fox up (and I'm really not that good anyways). But I find that I have trouble spacing myself against marth's sword. Any help with spacing would be good.

I'm looking forward to this discussion.

[superryan]

Fox vs Marth...

Fox has some nice camping in this match vs marth, DD camping and if marth camps, then he takes out his gun. Fox wants grabs to uair juggles, and generally he wants marth above him at all times. Also fox's speed is tricky, and shine can lead to grab. Fox is also a great punisher. The fact that a grab at most percents can lead to a kill is a very scary thought for Marth.

On the other hand, Marth has his usual range advantage, both in his general attacks and grabs. Utilt can messup a fox who tries to approach from above, and from my experience, can usually nullify the ol' reliable FJ nair approach. DD camping is also a nice way to bait attacks and go for a grab or just get out of the way. Fox has to watch out for grabs too, and marth also has his tech chasing which can be set up by alot of things against fox into a grab, fsmash, etc. Fox seems to have an easier time getting grabs from my experience, and he obviously has amazing edgeguarding.

Counterpick: Alot of marths seem to like these small stages, but they also let fox get kills ALOT quicker, like yoshi's. When I play as marth, i loathe that stage vs fox. I like dreamland for Marth, it gives me room but on the other hand fox also has maneuverability and lasers, but you die a bit later which can be pivotal in the match for marth, but it's also harder to edgeguard...

Marth can smash DI the first hit of uair and marth can also DI away and fair at low percents i believe but fox can get him anyway. If Fox DIs good and doesnt get nailed by stupid random fsmashes/ftilt tippers or even a utilt tipper, then he can live annoyingly long if hes smart with recovery, but usmashes and uairs are extremly deadly and even with DI, you can't live as long as alot of you would like. Fox also has bairs which can be easily DIed, shinespikes sometimes work and the shieldhog and can punish up b lag with a ledgehop uair most of the time.

Iono, statistics seem to be in fox's favor but from sheer experience it seems even.

[NusCirtap]

Marth: Against fox's uthrow/uair, you're supposed to dash dance or something so you smash di the first hit and miss the second. But I get mad lazy and don't feel like doing it. At the lower percent you can actually get off a counter before they can uair you, I forget the % though. When you cg a fox that doesn't know how to di properly you can get some good %, from personal experience ( I don't know if this is actually true...) you can do like up to 20 without moving and only turning left/right and if they continue to DI left or right after that a tilt will usually make them in a good grab range if you just jc dash grab or you can just jc dash grab if they DI left/right without the tilt. If they DI left/right at 40ish then you may land a tipper sometimes. If you tilt them and they go semi-high to the point where they will be able to jump again, a shffl uair to grab might work. To get the initial grab you can usually do a fair if they're at lower percent and grab real quick.

Edge guarding fox is probably the best way to kill, just dtilt against sweet spot. If they up b and you think their fire which is rather large will hit, you can counter which you can continue by jumping off stage to b charge up or a well spaced fair. The hanging on edge, jump off bair is ok too if you do it from far and tip it. If they are too high and you're on edge, a jump on stage with nair can work. Or same thing but with dair from below. Some people fall off and do counter but I think it's too risky, they can tech off wall and you may die but if they suck then do it for fun. Obviously teh fsmash! or bcharge if you can see them coming and they can't do much. If you think they'll wall tech and forward b real quick just do like a jab or whatever marth's is called. Press a and they'll fall down.

Fox: What my brother does is just DI the first 20% to try to get out but after that if you are directly above they can't grab again cause you can shine so don't DI once you hit 20 or DI up and they may utilt which will send you to the ground before they can grab you again. They can still tech chase so yeah... Oh if you DI off stage at like 40 and out of grab range they can just go spike you. Just try to DI up and jump or else their tilts can lead to a tipper.

All fox does really is get a shine off, sometimes from a dair or even nair at lower percent, wavedash, grab, uthrow/uair. Or at least that's all I do... You can spam lasers if you want but it doesn't stun but its ok to do a few full jumped 3 laser if they're on a platform or something to get some quick little damage. I don't go for shinespike against the better players cause they might up b early and if you don't tech you might hit the wall and die. Usmash out of shield too. Um tech chasing with usmash is good. I don't really know much else.

They pretty much own each other, there's other stuff but I'm tired now and all I said is probably false. >_< Just space well, I don't really know how to describe that.

<3 brookman.

[technomancer]

For edgeguarding, you absolutely must become fluent in shinespiking/B-airing Marth's recovery with ledge invulnerability, and preferably being able to jump cancel into a firefox or illusion grab from there (nothing sucks worse than a good edgeguard gone wrong because you messed around too long off the edge). I can't do it really well at all, but I am very good at using invlunerability to at least not get stagespiked, and the kills I net help always. Pro Marths are mostly just interested in getting in quick CG and Uptilt combos into forward smashes and edgeguarding you; you need to be able to return the favor if you don't want to be facing a serious deficit.

If their damage is high, you can also use the Death-To-Marth edgeguard (lightshield trick), then quickly do an edge stand and upsmash them, or if you're >100%, edgehop a U-air.


A few other things I make a point of: your game against Marth is a speed, hit-and-run game, not a pressure game. Marth's F-air and grab are both good at breaking up your combos and punishing mistakes, and good DI on the Marth's part can leave you in difficult situations. However, if you make a habit of ending your combos at a few hits, it forces the Marth to continually be aggressive or be chipped to death, allotting you upsmashes and grabs where he makes mistakes.


Make it clear that your breathing room is not to be trifled with. If you're going to SHL spam, do it from the middle of the stage in short bursts, and dashdance around to make it unpredictable. Never, ever, go to one side and start spamming, because that gives the Marth an excuse to close you off with an unstoppable wall of gay sword into forward smash or spike, limits your tech options, and basically means that a tipper at 20%+ is an auto-kill. If he wants to steal your spot, use your SHFFL game to let him know what's up.


If you can't shine-WD-grab, just drillshine, jump cancel, and RSHL away and you're fine (but go learn it lol). I don't like to WD away because it feels sticky slow and the spacing seems good for a WD->forward smash, but I guess you could.

Also, stay low. Hanging around platforms against Marth can be useful, but for the most part, when you're above him, he's spotting for uptilt and grab combos, and you're spotting for I don't know what. Also, when you Aerial, make sure you can shine him afterward, because he is kinda fat and slidy and his grabbox is like hooge, and jabbing is mediocre in comparison. Ok, I'm done. I'd like more info on platform tipper combos and how to get out of weird aerial chains.

[LuCKy]

i dont fight marth often but my friend will pick him sometimes and hes not half bad.all i know that works for sure is the shine!now if u ever get marth of the field get out there and shine.now if ur fighting a decent marth when thier recovering they will use marth's foward b move to get thier little bit of xtra air time and protect himself but you have two jumps so use them,use your first jump toget out there but not into his range.right after marth does his foward b use your second jumb and shine marth to hell.if your not the best at shining then just edgehog nothing kills marth easier.

[takieddine]

I'll try to cover the technical aspects.

Combo's that work on marth, I think this was posted at some fox guide, I forgot which one.

Drillshine into dashattack(this sets up for great combo setups, utilts etc..)
Drillshine into grab(Followed by the usual uair juggle)
Drillshine into usmash(Only works with a perfect wavedash I heard)

You can waveshine/drillshine infinite a marth for two hits or three, but DI can mess it up badly.

You can try to use this combo.

If you try fast enough, the nair/shine combos connect, giving you a nair/shine,wd,nair/shine into whatever.

You can chain nairs into usmash against marth.

For edgeguarding a marth, I HIGHLY suggest learning two techniques...

Firefox & shinespike infinite stall, and the lightshield trick to knock you back into an edgehog.

With marth make sure you play a waiting game, spam lasers untill they take action, when they do, its your time to counter. Approaching marth from the top is your best option, sure the utilt can get you, but at least the drill has more of a chance to tie it, and its much better than taking an fsmash in the face.

Hope I helped someone.

[GanonPWN!]

Fox has some of the hardest hitting combos against marth in the game, upthrow to upair is only one of them, agreat combo thats hard to avoid is nairing into upsmash, fox can also jab into some brutal techniques, such as a grab or in some cases a upsmash.

Fox's recovery is 10x harder to punish than marth's with this newlight shield technique everytime marth has to use his upb, its a free upair or upthrow or upsmash. I play against people who will tech marth's fsmash or dtilt just about everytime and usaully a walltech with a space animal is a get back free, there are so many options to recover with fox/falco its hard to edgeguard them, with marth there are very few.

People say that marth's defence against fox is chain grabbing, well i'm fairly proficcient at it and can get a fox up to 50% usually from the first grab, however when i play fox vs marth i can get them up to 46% from 0 from a grab and from experience i'd say that fox is harder to grab and due to his amazing dodge can grab easier aswell.

Fox is toptier for a reason, time will tell that the only way to play this game will be to laser camp and use mutton mashing techniques like waveshining.

In terms of stages there are few that are great for marth, there is FD, however that stage usually gets banned when im playing against a fox and there are many good stages for fox. Yoshi's story, greens, corneria etc. on stages like dreamland marth does last a little bit longer from the upthrow upair combo.. but its not enough to make up for taking away his chain grab,his ability to upthrow to fsmash and to be able to tech chase them on a platform with a tipped fsmash