Disecting the Backward Waveshine

[JFox]

Let me start by saying I use X to jump. I'm not sure how that makes a difference, but everyone that uses X seems to struggle more than those who use Y.

Ok question time:

When I go for the backward waveshine, three things can happen. Either A: I can get stuck in the shine. B: I can shine than wavedash but somehow turned around somewhere in the process. And C: I can Shine and than wavedash out without turning around.

I would like to know HOW I control this process. (Of course A is the one I want to avoid, but would still like to know how it happens) I want to be able to selectively do a backward waveshine, or a waveshine where I turn around. The biggest problem is that for some reason I can't which one I do, and I don't even know what it is I'm doing wrong. So I wanna know exactly what makes Fox turn around sometimes and other times not.

Note: A technical answer with frame rates and other in depth info would be prefered if applicable. I don't wanna hear something like "just waveshine faster" unless that answer is followed up with WHY i should waveshine faster.

[Zgetto]

i cant give you the excact frames(someone else have to give you that)
but i know a couple things.

A: your stuck in the shine cause you turn around in it and when you do that you cant cancel it the first few frames after turning around(so i quess your turn around accidently and then wavedash right after that thats when you get stuck in the shine).

B: when you try to wave dash backwards out of a shine you have to make sure press backwards and the waveshine at the same time.(thats just a matter of timing)
when you press backwards a little sooner then you wavedash, then you will turn first in the shine and after the turn you can wavedash forward.(but again if you do this to fast you will get stuck in the shine)

this is all i know
i hope you understand it and it helps you :P

[Sudai]

If you make sure you jump before pressing back, you'll avoid turning in the shine eleminating the opportunity to turn around then WD and getting stuck in your shine due to turn lag.

[conductor]

Yeah, in my experience with both fox and falco, waveshining in different directions can get a little hairy. The first thing I noticed is what you've said, if I turn around in the shine I can't move I think this is because there is a certain amount of time the animation of turning around takes to complete (I heard something like four frames to turn around, but I'm not completely sure about that) and I figure if I turn around late in the shine then I usually press jump during the animation of turning around and thus miss my opportunity to waveshine This makes me stuck. But I also noticed that if I turn around -immidiately- as I use the shine I will turn around in the shine almost instantaneously and it won't affect my waveshine at all, except for the fact that I will face the other way. So if you're trying to turn around in your shine experiment with -when- you turn around and get a feel for that I'm not sure the technical information, but that's what's helped me. Now for waveshining backwards, pretty much for me waveshining is basically wavedashing, except that you shine. What I mean is if you want to face one direction and wavedash the opposite way, you have to input the jump and then the direction. If you input the direction first you'll turn around. I hope some of that helped. Basically if I were you I would just go to FD and waveshine all round the level and see how all this different little details work and stuff. That's what I did, anyways.

[Sudai]

3 Frame shine turn around according to AR.

[technomancer]

3 Frame shine turn around according to AR.

7 frames total I believe, with the initial no-JC lag (4 frames)

[Sudai]

7 frames total I believe, with the initial no-JC lag (4 frames)

Yes in which case 7-4 = 3.

If you were just pointing out an extra fact, sorry. XP
It's early so my mind comprehends that as you trying to correct an error I made but I'm kinda loopy because I just woke up so just ignore this big long sentence and possibly this entire post~

[Oskurito]

A: The timing for the backward waveshine is a little different (a little slower for me) than the normal waveshine, so get used to it and you'll not miss OR you're pressing X too fast or too slight so the game doesn't notice it(this also happens to me but I realize what I was doing wrong).

B: Yeah, the same happens to me but is good is good if you're trying the drillshine infinite because you can better connect with the dair (at least for me).

C: Me too

Practice is the key.

[tarheeljks]

@Jfox: I just have a point of clarification: backwards as in the literal meaning of backwards or backwards as in waveshining to the left.

[wuthefwasthat]

as in facing the opposite direction you're moving

i think its basically its a question of when you're pressing your buttons.

so,
if you tilt the joystick more than the 7 frames before you hit X, you will turn, and waveshine forwards.
if you tilt the joystick less than 7 frames before you hit X, you will get stuck in the shine
if you tilt the joystick between hitting X and R, you will do the backwards waveshine

[Apocalypse™]

Wow I posted this exact same question a while back: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=94405

This is all you need to know:

if you tilt the joystick more than the 7 frames before you hit X, you will turn, and waveshine forwards.
if you tilt the joystick less than 7 frames before you hit X, you will get stuck in the shine
if you tilt the joystick between hitting X and R, you will do the backwards waveshine

[takieddine]

SOLUTION:

Just delay your direction by a bit...i'm pretty sure the game is forgiving about choosing the direction of your airdodge, therefore, you'll never get stuck in the shine again. make sure the direction(backwards) is the last process of the waveshine.

so it should go.

down.b.jump(preferably with Y).airdodge.then direction.

[Brookman]

I don't really care to read what anyone else said, and I'm just going to repeat everything most likely.

First, in regards to using x/y. It's clinically proven that people who use X just john more often.

If you can't wavedash backwards out of the shine you just need to practice. That's about it. You don't really need frame information, it's as simple as this:

shine THEN JUMP then angle the control stick then shoulder button. You have to jump first otherwise you will turn around in the shine, and if you jump in the four frames required to turn you won't actually jump.

Just practice themotion slowly till you're comfortable and have trained your fingers to jump first, then practice doing it as fast as you can.

[ChRed2AKrisp]

oh, so your problem is accidentaly turning in shine? I thought you wanted to be able to intentionally turn in shine->waveshine for things like faster edgehog.

What brookman said, just make sure you press jump and THEN slide the stick to the diagonal.

There's no other way to solve your problem.

[Brookman]

oh, so your problem is accidentaly turning in shine? I thought you wanted to be able to intentionally turn in shine->waveshine for things like faster edgehog.

What brookman said, just make sure you press jump and THEN slide the stick to the diagonal.

There's no other way to solve your problem.

Shine turn around edge hog would be a problem for him since he can't waveshine backwards out of the shine on consistently. Which will change with just a bit of practice.

[JFox]

Yeah I got my answer, thanks all. Very informative. I'll start workin on it.