need a lot of help vs. eskimos with hammers

[Reese]

My friend just picked up ice climbers, and I have some serious problems with against him. He outprioritizes my shfflc'd approaches, I cant grab without getting smashed by the other eskimo, I tried camping but their wd's go so far...and so fast, so I cant really use my laser. I get crushed off edge by their smashes. I get grabbed ->smash->edgeguarded so quickly and easily and I can barely hit them without being smacked by the other IC. They go really far when I shine them and so I cant do a follow up attack while they are stunned. When I do seperate them with the shine, Popo usually wds quickly toward me, and I can barely hit Nana before Popo gets close enough to grab me.

What are some good stages to vs Ice Climbers ? How do you approach and edgeguard against Ice Climbers as Fox? How do you hit them without getting ****ed ?

Please help me my face turns red when I fight IC's :mad:
thanks

[FastFox]

Part of fighting any sliding characters (possibly discluding luigi) is learning how to wavedash their length. Don't be afraid to u-smash the IC's. If they shield, they slide too far back to shield grab, and if they do you can run up and grab once theirs misses. Approach from above, otherwise you're get a wavedashed d-smash to the face. Keep your nairs for higher damages, or else you'll get shield grabbed to ****. Focuss on u-airing out of grabs and smashing. One of the first things you would want to do is eliminate Nana. Popo is MUCH easier to take care of without her, unless you're playing Chu.

[Wilhelmsan]

Instead of looking at the shine as something lost, you should consider it a tool to help you eliminate Nana early on.

[halfDemon]

Instead of looking at the shine as something lost, you should consider it a tool to help you eliminate Nana early on.

Mhmm. Separate the two and gimp Nana as soon as possible.

[btk Ace]

Shine is far from lost my friend
the shine can seperate them so easy
take out nana
with Nana out of the way Popo should be WAAAAY easyer
so use shine to take nana out
she can be easyily shine spiked

[shadydentist]

Try to play defensively. Don't just rush in with a shffl'd aerial, try to make them come to you. Use the shine to avoid getting grabbed. Laser spam to tack on damage.

Above all, don't get grabbed.

[Oskurito]

You should watch how Cunning Kitsune fights against Chu Dat, that should help you

[takieddine]

Cunning acually shuffled alot, which is not too good of a thing.

I suggest you watch P.C. chris play Chu's IC's his fox is godly.

[technomancer]

I'll note that IC's can't grab you while you're standing on a platform. Use this for teh mindgamez. IC's require specific strats with almost every character, and you can't play against them like any other character because their mechanics and spacings are very different, and they can space you back amazingly with their WD.

[Reese]

I'll note that IC's can't grab you while you're standing on a platform. Use this for teh mindgamez. IC's require specific strats with almost every character, and you can't play against them like any other character because their mechanics and spacings are very different, and they can space you back amazingly with their WD.

:) Wow I did not know that IC's cant grab you on platforms-why cant they? Is it a glitch or something?

So if you waveshine-> usmash the IC's they cant grab you. That's awesome.

Okay, so basically, play defensive, use shine to seperate the IC's, and then gimp Nana. But, if shfflc'ing aerials against the IC's is not a good idea, wouldn't you be forced to make a grounded approach ?And because you cant grab one ice climber without the other interrupting, then you would have to use tilts. And if you use tilts, wouldn't the IC's just cc and dsmash?

Is there anyway to approach the IC's, or do I have to play very opportunistic to win this fight?

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

[Wilhelmsan]

keep the pace up, throw them off with shine, and strike.

[shadydentist]

Well... shffle when you see an opening. Do things like dash dance, pulse walk, and laser spam to create an opportunity. Don't just jump in there. And I would recommend against going against him with grounded attacks. ICs have a lot of options on the ground, and much fewer in the air.

[FastFox]

For an approach, try SH'ing a shine. It'll seperate them, then you can jump out with the already gained height of the short hop into a dair or something. Like I said before, don't be afraid to go for that u-smash, whether the IC's are shielding or not. Either way they won't be able to grab you.

About the grabs on platforms - usually (especially FoD), if you're standing on a platform, the IC's will sit underneath it and u-smash juggle you. Not necessarily the best thing for a fast-faller. If you're on a platform, work the mindgrainez. Drop through with a b-air, hitting with the tip to ensure you don't get grabbed, then jump back on the platform with a b-air. You can also drop through, shine, then jump back onto the platform and follow their slide direction with a falling aerial off the platform itself. It sounds complex, but it works.

Remember, top priority is getting rid of Nana. Here's a video of myself playing a pair of IC's at a tournament. I was in the same situation as you, then. I had no idea how to play against them. I just went with the flow, I guess. Note how I often got grabbed out of my nairs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpxpv0y6nfs

[Reese]

Wow you gimped nana while you were both standing on the stage ! That gave me a warm fuzzy feeling inside:lick: . I see how dividing ice climbers and eliminating nana is really effective. As for the nairs, I saw you only got shield grabbed once or twice. In fact, they really did not grab you at all except for that one grab at the beginning.

Perhaps I am not shfflcing->shine correctly with fox, because I always get shieldgrabbed when I attempt nairs.

To win this match, I had to switch to falcon and spam dairs. I landed behind them so they couldn't grab me, and when they dont shield, I knee 'em when they pop up. I also found success with marth, because of his range.

Now that I have some ideas on how to fight IC's with fox, I'll try this matchup again. I think I may to have to focus on JCing the shine (after an aerial) quickly into either a full jumped aerial or a shffled aerial. Usually I try to waveshine quickly on the spot to pressure their sheilds, but this does not seem to work for me against IC's, and this really threw me off during this match.

I saw how easy is to spike both either nana or popo when they are seperated:chuckle: . Is FoD the only stage where they can do a usmash juggle (using platforms)?

[St. Viers]

I don't main fox, but I use him to practice L-Canceling. If you do it right there should be very close to no lag... I can never do it in an actual fight, but in TM I'm able to go straight from a n-air to shine.

Hope this helps, and hope I'm right.

[FastFox]

St. Viers, you also have to remember that the IC's grab actually consists of two grabs, Nana's and Popo's.

[Lixivium]

It's true that IC's can't shieldgrab an Up-Smash, but they can still punish it by WD'ing out of the shield. This won't happen unless the IC player is really good, or the Fox is really predictable, but you shouldn't carelessly throw out Up-Smashes.

Don't SHFFLC into IC's unless you can nail it every single time, especially if they have the double shield up. SHFFLC past their shield and land behind them so you don't get grabbed, unless you're approaching from behind them.

Don't be afraid to grab the IC's. The double shield is a great defense and sometimes IC's (at least, myself) have a habit of sitting inside it while waiting for you to make a mistake. Just be sure to throw IMMEDIATELY once you grab one of them.

[Reese]

hmm Okay I wont be predictable and spam usmashes. I dont know about grabbing ICs though... bad things have happened to me when I try to grab ICs... horrible things... terrible things...

I will try and shfflc past them too. That should be really helpfull in this matchup. Then I could spin around and usmash or dtilt, or maybe... just maybe I might grab... if I feel lucky.

Ooooooo Omni updated his guide with the IC's versus Fox matchup. Im gonna take a looksee at that...stupid IC's... how can they move around so fast while wearing parkas and holding huge hammers? You think that they would pass out from heat exhaustion. Stupid IC's.


Thanks everybody ! You guys have been very helpfull.

[Hylian]

Full hopped Nairs into shine works. It really does I reccomend you trying that. Once they are seperated from your shine it is realtivly easy to keep hitting nana while dealing with popo. Watch out for their Upsmash and of course please try not to get grabbed.

[Reese]

Okay I'll give full jumped nairs -> shine a try. I find it difficult to try shfflc past both their sheilds, but full jumped nairs -> shine is definately a lot easier.

[Micheloxx]

guys, but it woudnt be the same to kill popo first?

[Wilhelmsan]

Full hopped Nairs into shine works.

AKA Falco-Stoppers

[Arcnatural]

guys, but it woudnt be the same to kill popo first?

Big difference
1) popo = human
2) nana = level 1 cpu


However, it would be awesome if nana was lvl 9 cpu.

[Micheloxx]

thats y im saying, i mean, u can kil nana if popo is flying by a hit, but i mean, if u gotta kill somebady, i preffer kill popo than nana because if i kill nana, it would be easier to kill popo, but if i kill popo there wont be no nana and 1 stock out.. dont u think?

[tarheeljks]

that is a trivial statement. obviously if you ko popo then nana goes wit him, but it is easier (and not nearly as risky) to separate the two and take out nana.

[Reese]

What arcnatural is saying is that while popo is being controlled by a human, nana is about as intelligent as a popsicle. So it is easier to kill nana then it is popo. However, if you have the option off killing either nana or popo, it is smarter to kill popo to eliminate your opponents' stock.

edit : As soon as I posted this post somebody else responded...