Pillaring with fox

[Oskurito]

Don't bother reading this if you're not a very technical fox because pillaring can be replaced by an easy JC grab out of the shine end of history. The point here is how many of you use this technique and how useful you find it and also any comment about it.

Personally I do it every time when someone pops up his shield but after 3 or 4 pillars anyone will roll dodge away without getting hit or maybe I connect with the dair or the shine before they do when his/her shield is small and then I start a combo or whatever.

I found pretty interesting that fox dair always have the same knock back, this means that it doesn't matter what shield or what character your opponent is using because fox will always be able to pillar it plus it's more quick and harder to grab and I think if you can pillar perfectly you can't be grabbed.

The cool part is that you look very flashy doing it and If you break a shield (that will rarely happen) you can make a full charged up smash for the kill or make a sick combo or blaster spam until your foe reaches a damage where an up smash will kill him :laugh:

[Fefnir Cerveau]

I actually tried this on my friends before, but I never really got it to work. Maybe I wasn't doing it fast enough, but they rolled away, like you said they would. I'm a lot better than back then, so I should try it out at the smashfest on Saturday. Over 12 hours baby~

[Hylian]

I pillar with fox all the time..it's part of the way I play fox >_>..

[Oskurito]

I pillar with fox all the time..it's part of the way I play fox >_>..

I know is offtopic but I'll like to see your fox, have you got any vids of you playing as fox?

[Hylian]

There are two videos of my fox online somewhere but I have no idea where that is lol. I will have more videos up after Evo and Host 2 hopefully. Most will probably be of my samus but I will definitly try to get some fox ones. I play a pretty technical Fox..I reverse DSHL ALOT and it annoys people because I can move back and fourth while doing it and I love playing peachs so I can waveshine and recently I have been Infinite comboing alot >_>...

[Brookman]

I actually tried this on my friends before, but I never really got it to work. Maybe I wasn't doing it fast enough, but they rolled away, like you said they would. I'm a lot better than back then, so I should try it out at the smashfest on Saturday. Over 12 hours baby~

It's always possible to roll away when being hit, which is why you can't break someones shield with something like this, unless you're DaCheezWizard, but he plays falco. He won a tournament in NY the this passed weekend by breaking everyone's shield and comboing people 0-300%

[Hylian]

DaCheezWizard is amazing. I heard Milktea followed him around everywhere.

And lol one time PC Chris placed 5th and 7th in the same tournament despite the fact that he was not in texas at the time.

[Oskurito]

It's always possible to roll away when being hit, which is why you can't break someones shield with something like this, unless you're DaCheezWizard, but he plays falco. He won a tournament in NY the this passed weekend by breaking everyone's shield and comboing people 0-300%

Yeah he's amazing. But I found Double shine pillaring extremely hard with fox, is easier to JC shine with falco if you do it with the control stick, believe me it isn't too hard if you practice everyday of your life like DCW

[Hylian]

I agree..I doubleshine pillar with falco easily but I don't try as fox for fear of messing up. And yeah I jump with the control stick at all times with fox including when I am pillaring.

[Brookman]

DaCheezWizard is amazing. I heard Milktea followed him around everywhere.

And lol one time PC Chris placed 5th and 7th in the same tournament despite the fact that he was not in texas at the time.

Cheez was pretty amazing, he spent like, 6 years studying melee in the mountains of upstate New York or something. it was there that he invented Falco. I talked to him almost all tourny when he wasn't breaking my shield, or someone elses. he actually does everything frame perfectly, and therefore can perform the most amazing combos. He was comboing someone in an early round and some kids head exploded just watching it. I fail to see what PC chris has to do with DaCheezWizard.

Yeah he's amazing. But I found Double shine pillaring extremely hard with fox, is easier to JC shine with falco if you do it with the control stick, believe me it isn't too hard if you practice everyday of your life like DCW

double shines? DaCheezWizard does frame perfect JC infinite shines all the time, that's how he moves around stage. We must not be talking about the same person.

[Eaode]

If you're gonna go through the trouble, why not just infinite JC shine :laugh:

wouldn't that be an automatic shield break?



PS. Not saying you should actually try JC shines. But w/e. Couldn't you just waveshine until they roll away?


EDIT: Now, from this thread I can say this: If you're DCW, ignore the PS.

[Oskurito]

If you're gonna go through the trouble, why not just infinite JC shine :laugh:

wouldn't that be an automatic shield break?



PS. Not saying you should actually try JC shines. But w/e. Couldn't you just waveshine until they roll away?


EDIT: Now, from this thread I can say this: If you're DCW, ignore the PS.

I wonder if that will be an unstoppable shield breaker. According with superdoodleman's frame data a cicle of JC shines takes 8 frames per shine so most grab starts at frame 7-8 that means they'll be hit if they try to grab and if they try to roll dodge they'll be hit too because invulnerability in roll dodge starts on frame 4 or later and the shine hits on 1 Am I right?

[Oskurito]

I'm gonna practice Double shine pillaring with fox until I can do it with consistency. I still have 4 months till my national tourney. I gotta win that Wii >_<

[Pye]

I wonder if that will be an unstoppable shield breaker. According with superdoodleman's frame data a cicle of JC shines takes 8 frames per shine so most grab starts at frame 7-8 that means they'll be hit if they try to grab and if they try to roll dodge they'll be hit too because invulnerability in roll dodge starts on frame 4 or later and the shine hits on 1 Am I right?

Partially correct. With proper JC shine timing against a shield, they won't be rolling away at all. Nor will they be grabbing. In fact, they could release the shield button and their shield wouldn't go down. If you JC shined consistently enough, you could just break someone's shield and theres nothing they could do about it. Shieldhitstun, boy!

Note that that only works with Fox. Falco can't do it.

[Brookman]

Shield stun from a shine doesn't prevent you from rolling away. You can always buffer a roll in using the C-stick so that you roll ASAP. You can't actually break a shield unless you are the cheese wizard or they just suck.

[MikeMan445]

Buffering is too good. Whenever I see people that don't buffer I'm all "BUFFER NUB" and they're like "wtf is buffering" and i'm like 'THATS WHY YOU'RE A NOOBLET".

Like at chu's birthday biweekly, I played this total noob named Azen and he didn't know what buffering was. What a nooblet.

[takieddine]

You know when you have your shield broken, after the stun, it is restored halfway back?

I've tried a dair doubleshine to usmash on that half-shield and it was an automatic break.., if you're going to break someone's sheild make sure you usmash, because it takes a significant amount of the shield maybe catching them offguard before they roll.

doubleshining a shield all the way with fox is pretty **** hard, although i've done it, it took way more than 10 shines. Falco is more efficient in this field.

[Oskurito]

I'll like to see vids of people doing this, it should help me a little more

[Doraki]

I think if you can pillar perfectly you can't be grabbed.
Just pointing out that you can get grabbed, always. (t least in pal)
Because you're not falco.

[Brookman]

How could you get grabbed Doraki? I'm not trying to say you can't, just curious. Can you get grabbed if the drill is hitting the shield or something?

[Fefnir Cerveau]

Man, PAL must suck...

[InfernoOmni]

I don't think Fox can get grabbed if he pillars perfectly.

In other news, attempting to break someone's shield with Fox is retarded. Stop trying.

[Doraki]

Simple. This is assuming you get kinda lucky and an offensive hitbox for the drill appears just before landing.

L-cancel time + 1 frame = 9 + 1 = 10 frames
Shield stun for a 3% damage move + 7 frames for a grab = 3 + 7 = 10 frames

Grab has more priority than shine

Grab wins.

The grabber has a 1-frame advantage for timing his grab relatively to the fox player timing his shine.

Now let's take falco.

Assuming he does his dair as late as possible :

L-cancel time + 1 frame = 9 + 1 = 10 frames
Shield stun for a 12% damage move + 7 frames for a grab = 7 + 7 = 14 frames.

The grabber has a 3-frame disadvantage for timing his grab relatively to the falco player timing his shine.

Falco wins, as always.

[takieddine]

So can fox pilar with his nair or bair then doraki?

[Doraki]

Up air is the best for this =p.

[takieddine]

that doesnt make sense, uair and dair have the same exact l-cancel time...

[Doraki]

but the upair's strong hit does 15% damage, right ? so it deals a lot more shield stun on the opponent (8 frames)

[Oskurito]

Yes , I think Doraki is right but then again is impossible to pillar lower traction chars with uair if they're power shielding

[takieddine]

gotcha doraki...I understand now.

if you really want an easy way to hammer on a shield, its as easy as pressing A three times lol...the rapid kicks are nasty.

[Doraki]

But it doesn't set up for a nice combo like up-air does if you hit them !
And anyway you should just grab them, right ?

As for power shielding pillaring ... I don't know. If you're facing someone crazy enough for that he might as well jab you after the aerial instead of grabbing, since jab is usually faster than grab.

[takieddine]

I think what he meant by power shielding was, light shielding...

[Mrobinson587]

How do you compute shield stun? Just curious is... there a thread or something?

[knightpraetor]

hey can someone answer a few questions for me?

i'm picking up fox and i'm wondering about how he can pillar.. from what you said it's risky to try to pillar with his dair...i'm guessing his bair and nair won't work because it doesn't hit over a long enough time period?

anyways, i've heard fox can wear down shields just by waveshining

but aren't you going to move forward faster than you push them back from the shine..so you'll either have to go back and forth from in front of them to behind them...or you'd have to just grab?

but ya, people keep telling me to just waveshine for shields and i just don't see how that is going to work more than like twice in a row...unless they mean wavedash in place..will that work? so basically i can just train myself to repeatedly jump air dodging down..(can you actually call it a wavedash without moving horizontally?) but in any case i assume that the air dodge will be more noticeable since you aren't going horizontal like in a normal wavedash...

anyways, videos of a fox pillaring in any form would be nice to see

[Fefnir Cerveau]

Man, Doraki makes like a lot of sense again. That's a pretty smart summary you got there.

[takieddine]

you can waveshine in place X_X

[Brookman]

You can get grabbed if you're just waveshining, there are plenty of vulnerable frames.

edit// Imagine if you could buffer grabs by pushing the c stick in or something, that would be ****ing broken.

[Hylian]

Simple. This is assuming you get kinda lucky and an offensive hitbox for the drill appears just before landing.

L-cancel time + 1 frame = 9 + 1 = 10 frames
Shield stun for a 3% damage move + 7 frames for a grab = 3 + 7 = 10 frames

Grab has more priority than shine

Grab wins.

The grabber has a 1-frame advantage for timing his grab relatively to the fox player timing his shine.

Now let's take falco.

Assuming he does his dair as late as possible :

L-cancel time + 1 frame = 9 + 1 = 10 frames
Shield stun for a 12% damage move + 7 frames for a grab = 7 + 7 = 14 frames.

The grabber has a 3-frame disadvantage for timing his grab relatively to the falco player timing his shine.

Falco wins, as always.


Ok...just curous about this..are you taking into effect that fox's dair is a multi-hit move? Doesn't that add shield lag? I am not sure at all it just seems like it would.

[Oskurito]

Ok...just curous about this..are you taking into effect that fox's dair is a multi-hit move? Doesn't that add shield lag? I am not sure at all it just seems like it would.

Yes but I believe that that doesn't matter because the stun inflicted on the shield is still the same.

[Hylian]

I'm not talking about the shield stun. I mean if they try to grab wouldn't they get hit by the dair because it is a mutli-hit move?

[Revised]

This may have been answered but i did not read the whole thread. But why does pilliaring with falco come some much easier for me then with fox.... Fox's short hop is a gimp peice a poo