Sydney Smash Thread - We Actually won a Crew Battle?!

[blazinfire0]

Wasn't animania a couple weeks after smash? and then supernova was after that or somehting

I live in Revesby/Revesby heights why do you ask bjay?

[FOnti]

doublexenopost: jaz, i'll need a blue sonic in my brawl banner. i've heard you play sonic too............................................... ......you sunama***** XD

(disclaimer: jaz, you are not, nor have you ever been, a sunama*****. i just want to be the best sonic in sydney :) )

[blazinfire0]

fonti you know you haven't xenoposted once let alone twice right?

[Bjay]

Fonti's failing at xenoposting tonight :P

I live in Bankstown, and yeah I was just wondering if you lived near me or not :P Though it seems that was the case cause of your location :P

There was the Animania at Town Hall, and there was the Animania (but not as big) at UNSW called SMASH! Hence the Smash@SMASH :P But that Animania wasn't as big.

Incidentally, OHN6 was on the same day as the Animania at Town Hall.

[blazinfire0]

O.o creepy I might have seen you !

[ComboTurtle]

tbh brawl matches that dont lag too much are good for practicing and learning new mind games... the game is slow enough anyway that u can adapt to the normal speed quite easily using the techniques from wifi... sure its not the best for tourneys but its a good way to practice and i didnt actually mean pro's only at my meet. Anyone is welcome to come =]

[xeno]

. due to the fact that every hit truly does count in a fighting game lag does cause major problems unlike in fps or rts.
I was reading through the thread and felt compelled to reply. Lag does matter in FPS and RTS, even the milliseconds. High level unit control is a must in RTS and those few milliseconds of response can determine weather your units walk away with 50% or 70% health. It might not look as important as a fighter, but timing unit movements and target selection is critical.
FPS however.. I notice anything over 30/40 ms.. would you go to war if it took 2/25'ths of a second longer for you to notice people?
Though it really depends on the game I suppose. I can play UrT (cs with respawns) on 200 lag and be half-decent -- I can't play Tremulous (lightning fast) with more then 80 ping and 80 ping is a ***** even then.
For decision making, fighters suffer the biggest from lag, but response time is universal for any game! I just woke up hi all. Anyone want to play Smash in the next 4 hours?

[xeno]

5:38 am and I can post as much as I want!
Has anyone played (beaten) Chromotron? http://silverspaceship.com/ I'm on level 11/12 of the first one 0_0 and it's racking my brain. It's great to play if you work on a computer all day.. fun game anyways.
Most obviously broken thing Xeno has sighted in Brawl: Using Pikachu's Down-B, the thunder misses but Pit extends his yai-yai-imgay-side-b into the thunder, which reflects, hits Pikachu, and kills him. Yeah, and it happened on fast mode too. Oh, and Pit's down-b can block F-smashes by reacting to them (instead of predicting)!?

[xeno]

Look.. it's beautiful
If p(t).block > 3 And p(t).block < 11 Then
hitconfirm = 0
If p(t).block > str Then
p(pl).momentum = p(pl).momentum - (p(t).block - str)
End If
If p(t).block <= str Then
p(t).GuardTick = p(t).GuardTick + (str - p(t).block)
End If
GoTo HitConfirmed
End If

[blazinfire0]

You say response time is universal yet you already said you can play different games well at different levels of ping and since ping increases overall response time that'd be wrong

I said lag is a factor in those games not that it wasn't a factor though it is far easier to deal with and play on a level close to that of a lan match in those games than a fighter in which every hit counts you lose a stock your at a greater disadvantage to losing a few extra units in an rts

Lag is of course noticeable but less impairing

[Dedu]

If p(t).block > 3 And p(t).block < 11 Then
hitconfirm = 0
If p(t).block > str Then
p(pl).momentum = p(pl).momentum - (p(t).block - str)
End If
If p(t).block <= str Then
p(t).GuardTick = p(t).GuardTick + (str - p(t).block)
End If
GoTo HitConfirmed
End IfLOL People can't understand Squat even if you explained it to them. They'll resort to tl;dr methods and ignore your post. I can read it but I don't understand the connections. Fail. Unless I play the game.

Pit is a fairly decent character. His downside however is his lack of kills from the stage. He has to kill opponents from the edge of the screen to win.

I just wish there was a Sheik (aka cheap, easy to use character) option in Brawl. Yay for ftilt/dtilt to fair. (Melee reference)
Oh well closest I could come with was ZSS. Shame though she doesn't have priority/range or much comboability with her moves. Any character suggestions? ROBOT? Luigi? Marth? Wolf?

[blazinfire0]

You actually want cheap characters? lol wut? Are you saying you want imba characters so you don't have to be good but just cheap to kill your opponent?

[FOnti]

at both times of posting, they were xenoposts. you guys just snuck some posts in there while i wasnt looking, you cheeky little monkeys

[xeno]

Yes.. but no Fonti.
xenoposts are only xenoposts when they are posted, otherwise they are failed xenoposts and you lose karma. Stu what is Squat? I just liked typing something that looks like it made sense but no one else could understand XD. Sure, Pit has lack of kills. He's still cheap, since he can override the enemy's attacks so often..
Brawlz br0ken

[Bjay]

Pit has some decent kill moves (lol I actually typed Pat at first hahaha)

He's gonna be very overused, he seems to have quite the priority too. I dunno, I don't really use him.

Not to mention he has an awesome recovery. But so do many other characters too, like R.O.B.

[S.D]

Is Kulla having a meet sometime soonish? That was the impression I was getting. Also anyone who wants to stay in melbourne on the cheap hostels are definitely the way to go. Can probly get a cheap domestic flight ie: jetstar aswell depending on when you go. I've stayed in plenty of hostels and they're generally not too bad an option. Also I am keen to meet some of u guys at a meet or something before i decide whether or not i should bother going to rambo. Would be pretty lonely by myself lol

[Dedu]

don't know squat. Look it up.

You actually want cheap characters? lol wut? Are you saying you want imba characters so you don't have to be good but just cheap to kill your opponent?Not exactly. More like a character that at least can dish out decent damage, flows well, and combos ground to air to a kill move. Not trade hits all the way to kicking them off the stage then following them up for a kill.

Marth is cheap as hell now. Every Aerial kills at 120 onwards if they're not affected by decay knockbacks. Though I gotta say his ground moves don't flow well into his Aerials. That's a good thing me thinks.
Sheik in Melee was a flow beast. Every ground attack linked well with her Aerials.
This technique is referred to as 'comboability'. I found her too easy to use IMO.
I've experienced similar responses using ZSS but she's got no priority ;_;
Everyone will always use imba chars to win. In tourneys its all about winning.

[xeno]

Marth is awesome.

[blazinfire0]

I would consider comboability more a phenomenon than a technique and I'm sure theres a better word out there for it than phenomenon

Marth is to feminine not as rugged sexy as the Ikester

Edit: lol my sig is to big for this forum

[xeno]

Yeah it's not a literal game technique, it's the application of of the game techniques to create new techniques. AKA strategy

[unreon]

You actually want cheap characters? lol wut? Are you saying you want imba characters so you don't have to be good but just cheap to kill your opponent?
Actually, yes. I WANT characters to be retardedly powerful, because that's how the game is won. There is no such thing as "cheap", only "useful". Having this imbalance in a character's abilities means that they become winning choices, and makes the game fun.

People tend to look at balance the wrong way. They see a 'cheap' character and ask for them to be nerfed raw. What should happen is that all the crappy characters be given options to make them a viable choice.

It's not that 'cheap' tactics don't take skill to win with; laying down a fireball trap takes great skill to apply. Keeping you in it forever is the easy part; and it's your character's fault you couldn't Shoryuken out of it.

MvC2 is a good example of this. The top ten characters are so broken that they balance themselves out. That is good game design. Otherwise you wind up with something awful like Soul Calibur or Tekken (both began with stupid ****ty mechanics to begin with).

[perpetual ownage]

You actually want cheap characters? lol wut? Are you saying you want imba characters so you don't have to be good but just cheap to kill your opponent?

lol wut? Sounds like someone is a scrub.

[Dedu]

Lulz Perp got a sig!

Woo hoo!
Unreon - Magneto/Cyclops FTW.

[CAOTIC]

****.... and Melee had only 5 equally overpowered characters... MVC2 is too good

[blazinfire0]

Unreon I'm not even going to bother showing how totally wrong your whole argument was so I'll do one aspect of it that preety much proves that your idea is wrong

10 out of 56 characters are good providing i counted the roster correctly and that is closer to a 1 in 6 ratio than a 1 in 5. that isn't anything semi resembling balance but more of a metagame restricted to a fraction of the characters because they are the only viable choices when all characters should be viable picks

[perpetual ownage]

Unreon I'm not even going to bother showing how totally wrong your whole argument was so I'll do one aspect of it that preety much proves that your idea is wrong

10 out of 56 characters are good providing i counted the roster correctly and that is closer to a 1 in 6 ratio than a 1 in 5. that isn't anything semi resembling balance but more of a metagame restricted to a fraction of the characters because they are the only viable choices when all characters should be viable picks

Balancing 56 characters is too difficult. You try and do it if you don't like only 10 good characters. I would rather play with 10 good characters that can kill easy than 56 garbage tier characters.

[blazinfire0]

I would rather have a small roster full of great characters than a huge roster with a handfull of broken characters that are the only ones being used because of the fact they are broken

As a developer I would consider how well the team could design 56 characters before trying to have a 56 character roster as I'd expect over years balance to become near perfect with new games being released inching closer to that goal and upon reaching the goal of balance then increasing of the roster should begin more so than adding garbage characters just to make your game seem better

But that would be becasue my point of view currently is not based on profit but more gameplay as I play the games not make them developers think money first more characters= greater WOW factor = more possible sales

[Jaz]

I suck at most games bar smash ._.
fonti we will learn sonic together!

[Bjay]

I'm very very amazed. This is actually still going!

As much as I love Balance (but could care less cause whenever I play I have lame reasons why I choose characters and when I play I just do whatever and hope for the best) it's actually really difficult to balance the game and the only thing you can do is attempt to balance it more, but as you balance it more, there becomes new unbalances in the 'game'.

Regardless of whether there's 12 characters, 30, 50, or 100 characters. No matter how balanced it is, there will always be characters that are better than others. It's only logic really, some characters will have easy learning curves, others, very difficult learning curves. But either way, out of an X amount of characters, you're only gonna use Y amount of characters for your own reasons.

For fighting games, there will always be a hierarchy, or in this case, a tier list. It's only normal really, but don't let that stop you from playing however you want.

Everyone has their own definition of fun. I myself am not picky so whatever floats my boat really, though of course I do have my moments where I cringe. But yeah there's no point in trying to show each other and point each other in whatever direction of what is fun.

People will love their 'cheap' characters. People will love their 'favourite' characters.

It's called balance. ;)

[Bjay]

xenopost (been ages since I done one)

Jazzzz unreon and I reckon you'd be great at Street Fighter :P

[blazinfire0]

Yes for our own reasons bjay not because the game is so broken we have to use them to win

people will constantly complain about imbalance to mask their lack of skill it is really only game breaking when it is impossible to prevent using any strat that isn't mirroring the brokenstrat and thus becoming who gets lucky wins

But the dream of having a roster where all characters are competition viable would be nice though there may be the eventuality where people start using less characters because some person is winning with a specific character so a large amount try the same tactic and find success in it and there are the others who are like "Hell yeah jpuff ftw" despite them being considered bad by the majority of the community. With the total viable roster the metagame would change when somebody finds away to counter the main strat with a character that had been lost because of copycats


I only do this so I get the chance to get recognised rather than forgotten

is it possible for anybody to host a meet 16-34 days from now? school holidays :) going to need to relax after exams somehow :)

[Bjay]

Yes for our own reasons bjay not because the game is so broken we have to use them to win



What I just bolded in your quote is still classifed as our 'own reasons', for whom it may concern.

That's just some people's preference. Whether it's a good or bad thing to you, I don't know.

I don't mind, I never assume for whatever reason why people play the game, or why they've chosen this and that, I just vs them, enjoy the match and hope for the best.

But still, if a game that has an X amount of characters and all the characters are practically top-tier, there will still be a Y amount that would be an exception and be above the rest.

[blazinfire0]

I wouldn't consider it my reasoning for using a charcter if i wasn't influenced by other people. The metagame really decides all **** conformists :P

[unreon]

Unreon I'm not even going to bother showing how totally wrong your whole argument was so I'll do one aspect of it that preety much proves that your idea is wrong

10 out of 56 characters are good...
I would actually like to hear what objections you have to my balance suggestions. There's nothing wrong I see there. Nerfing removes gameplay elements; buffing evolves.

To combat your argument, I should have been more clear. I don't know if you've played or watched, but I'll explain anyway. MvC2 works on the basis that you form a team of 3 characters. At any one time it's a 1v1 classic match, but at any point you may call in one of your two benched characters to use a 'special' move (assist). Each of the benched characters have 3 different assists.

There are 4 (Magneto, Storm, Sentinel, Cable) ridiculously overpowered characters. There are another 6 or so that fit into the very overpowered catagory. Then another 5 or so that play great team support roles.

I can't be ****ted to do a permutations of the resultant number of teams, but that definitely means that many viable team choices are presented at top-level play. This makes a great fighting game.

You assume that competetive games should follow the actions every single one of the developer's intentions. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Developers aren't gods; they can't predict everything. They simply give the players the tools to play, the players then take them apart, examine it, and eventually 'solve' it. "Balance" is not giving every character equal chance to win. "Balance" means at high-level play, there are various strategies of equal chance to win. The two are not intrinsically linked, but a subtle distinction exists.

As long as the options of play are varied and balanced, it keeps the game interesting, and hence, creates a good game.


PS: Nowhere in my previous argument did I say that there should be a host of overpowered characters and some throw-away trash ones. I suggest you read David Sirlin if you haven't already. He has the retardedly difficult job of balancing out Street Fighter II HDRemix. Start with his entry of Balrog, who ranks as #2 of the tier list: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/ssf2t-hd-remix-part-7-balrog/

[ComboTurtle]

like i could like and say im not better than u all at brawl... but i am... meet = 12pm 38/1 pleasant avenue anyone who gets lost ring 0432074778 (its my room mates number) will make me lol like wollongog lol

lie*

[ComboTurtle]

anyone who doesnt come is gay.

[Bjay]

Poor Tom. His meet being faded out by discussion of gameplay!

I should host a meet some time in the future... :confused:

I would actually like to hear what objections you have to my balance suggestions. There's nothing wrong I see there. Nerfing removes gameplay elements; buffing evolves.

To combat your argument, I should have been more clear. I don't know if you've played or watched, but I'll explain anyway. MvC2 works on the basis that you form a team of 3 characters. At any one time it's a 1v1 classic match, but at any point you may call in one of your two benched characters to use a 'special' move (assist). Each of the benched characters have 3 different assists.

There are 4 (Magneto, Storm, Sentinel, Cable) ridiculously overpowered characters. There are another 6 or so that fit into the very overpowered catagory. Then another 5 or so that play great team support roles.

I can't be ****ted to do a permutations of the resultant number of teams, but that definitely means that many viable team choices are presented at top-level play. This makes a great fighting game.

You assume that competetive games should follow the actions every single one of the developer's intentions. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Developers aren't gods; they can't predict everything. They simply give the players the tools to play, the players then take them apart, examine it, and eventually 'solve' it. "Balance" is not giving every character equal chance to win. "Balance" means at high-level play, there are various strategies of equal chance to win. The two are not intrinsically linked, but a subtle distinction exists.

As long as the options of play are varied and balanced, it keeps the game interesting, and hence, creates a good game.


PS: Nowhere in my previous argument did I say that there should be a host of overpowered characters and some throw-away trash ones. I suggest you read David Sirlin if you haven't already. He has the retardedly difficult job of balancing out Street Fighter II HDRemix. Start with his entry of Balrog, who ranks as #2 of the tier list: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/ssf2t-hd-remix-part-7-balrog/

Man reading all this Marvel Vs Capcom 2 makes me miss back when I used to know how to play haha. That's probably the last intense, fast-paced fighting game I've played since Melee. After all, we know how quite psychotic the matches in MvC2 can be :P

Incidentally my main team was Jill, Cable, and Captain Commando.

Cable was 4th on Top-Tier I believe? (mind you when I started playing I had no idea about the tiers at the time, I just played lol), Captain Commando was a Top Assist (though I always handled well with him as a Single character cause he has his own assists :P), and Jill was Middle tier.

Incidentally for MvC2's tiers, after the top tiers and top assists, it got broken into 3 different tiers :P

Oh here's the top 10 characters for MvC2 :P (I don't even know why I'm adding all this in, but since MvC2 is being talked about, why not!)

Top Tier
- Storm
- Sentinel
- Magneto
- Cable

2nd Tier
- Cyclops
- Blackheart
- Ironman
- Dr. Doom
- Spiral
- Strider (With Dr. Doom)

the only one I haven't seen in action still is Blackheart.

[xeno]

Paranoia's designers said "But if players can hoard Perversity points, won't that make them absurdly powerful?" and they replied "Game balance is seldom an issue in Paranoia".
IMO characters should have POWER contrasted by SKILL to perform. You can be technically invincible in Smash if you can Smash-DI and Just Defend / Power Shield, and have 1 frame reaction time to whatever your opponent does. Technically every character is capable of being broken.
The BAD power / skill is when... "Press a,b,c with little regard to spacing, what attack my opponent is doing, their guard bar, their damage % -- just press this attack and it will beat 90% of the things they do with almost no skill". That's bad. I agree with Unreon, every character in a fighting game should be Top-Tier "broken".
I *don't* like Brawl because the brokenness just seems weird.. but I'm still new at it.

[blazinfire0]

I agree with Unreon, every character in a fighting game should be Top-Tier "broken".


Uhh you agreed with me unreon wants characters to be better than others you want them to all be at the same level that is balance

[Jaz]

everyone has been a little evened out in brawl
why... weren't they just all made awesome?
is it possible? well, there awesomeness would be awesome, but it would be bland cause everyone elses awesomeness if of a similar awesome.
so how does giving falcon a scarf even him out?