Match Up Export: ROB

Sage JoWii · May 24, 2010

Overview:
It’s Kirby vs the Robotic Operating Buddy! With his rocket engine recovery, R.O.B. has almost no trouble getting back onstage. He also has 2 projectiles. Kirby vs R.O.B. is not a difficult matchup, but the little marshmallow needs to stay on his toes.

Kirby’s pros+cons:
+Strong KO options
- Lightweight
- Poor Long-distance game
- Can get DAir'd after copy
R.O.B.’s pros+cons:
+ Superior Long-range Game
+ Great Close-range
+ Excellent Recovery; hard to gimp
+ VERY Disjointed
- Slow Airspeed

Watch Out For:
Lasers - his laser is a strong, fast attack that reaches across most stages and charges over time. Lasers are okay camping tools. There is a lull of 3~ seconds before r.o.b can use the laser again. They can also be used to ko you if you are near the blast zone.

Gyro - it can be glide tossed, it can be charged, and it can ko at high %’s. Another okay camping tool. He can glide toss -> fsmash, usmash, and grab (if the gyro is shielded). It is very important for you to know how far the gyro will fly based on how much it was charged and how to react (shield, crouch or dodge).

DSmash - generally used out of a spotdodge as a punishing move, the hitbox comes out on frame 4. If you get hit by it, sdi up and you may be able to escape.

FTilt - ftilt has surprising range and speed and when well-spaced is hard to counter

NAir - nair covers rob’s entire hurtbox and has surprising knockback. The first hit comes out on frame 18, however, so it shouldn’t be too difficult to avoid.

How to win:
Punish – punishing is what Kirby needs to do in this matchup. R.O.B’s moves are fast and have good range, but are still punishable. BAir is good for punishing. This ties in with the next “how to win” point.

Tilts – if punishing is the name of our game, it makes sense to use some of the fastest moves in Kirby’s arsenal, right? And those are tilts (DTilt and UTilt come out frame 4 and FTilt comes out on frame 5) .

Bait - baiting goes hand-in-hand with punishing. Most of the time, it’s best to stay just out of range and bait his attacks.

Stay at close range - this is where Kirby wants rob to be. The range factor is no longer a problem, but Kirby must be confident in his attacks or the speed factor will hurt him. Watch out for R.O.B.’s 3-frame jab at this range.

Aircamp the **** out of him- if you get in there and rack that percent up or take a life? Aircamp him hard. R.O.B. hates approaching. Aircamp to avoid projectile wall as well and when Kirby has a lazer.

Spit Out or Swallow?
Definitely swallow, no questions asked. Inhale doesn’t help against R.O.B., but having his laser does. It makes long range easier by giving you a camping tool and making it harder for him to camp, which already isn’t easy for him. Note that Kirby can be immediately hit by a DAir after a swallow, but it’s still worth it.

What Not To Do:
Be at long range – R.O.B. can camp. Close the distance ASAP....at least until you have the percent/stock lead.

Stay @ ground level too long – that's perfect range for gyro, lazer spam to hit Kirby and rack damage.

Eat damage – getting 'in' against R.O.B. is hard. That ******* will camp Kirby for as long as he can and this may be frustrating; but don't eat damage trying to attack. Every bit of damage gets you one step closer to death and with as many jumps as Kirby has you shouldn't have a hard time aerial approach to dodge the projectiles.

Stages (in order of priority ):
Brinstar – camping game is almost completely destroyed by approaching from under the stage. Kirby can shark well against R.O.B., who has a blindspot under him. R.o.b. Can kill sooner than usual, but Kirby can kill even sooner. Very good CP.
RC – R.O.B. has worse aerial speed than Kirby. The relatively short length of the stage means approaching R.O.B. won't take as long and with the uneven stage/platforms aircamping should be a breeze.
PS1 – so much terrain to stop R.O.B.s camping it's not even funny (but it is). All Kirbies need to make this stage one of your favorites because the terrain, windmill and lip will always save you.
FD – flat with no platforms is the exact opposite of what this matchup is about.
SV – same as FD.
Any place that helps R.O.B. camp – duh.

Starters: Ranked and Explained

Key: Good, Bad.

PS1 – explained above.
Battlefield – short stage, lots of platforms. Enjoy!
FD – instant ban. You want either terrain or platforms for this matchup.
SV – same as FD but at least you have the platform.

synopsis:
Kirby vs R.O.B. is an almost even matchup. Watch out for his NAir, glide toss approaches and lasers, which can be angled. This matchup is all about punishing for Kirby. R.O.B. has the tools for this matchup because of how he is able to attack from a little farther away, hits just a little quicker, tacks on that extra little damage from projectiles, and is heavy; BUT against Kirby's jumps it's all nulled.

Bees! · May 26, 2010

Hmmm lets see....
Kirby vs ROB

ROB advantages vs Kirby
-Camps Kirby due to poor air speed and dash speed. lasers also shut down Kirby in the air
-Outranges Kirby with practically every move
-fthrow combo is hard to do considering ROBs floaty airgame.
-ROB does well offstage vs Kirby
-Kirby has very few options to deal with ROBs planking.

Kirby advantages vs ROB
-Copy ability creates the cutest Kirby in the whole existence of Kirbies(BEEP!)><(!.!<) Also Kirby with laser is amazing. Giving Kirby a good projectile and allows him to fly around offstage and laser ROB. (forcing ROB to approach)
-juggling ROB with uAirs fAirs and sometimes bAirs.
-ROB being a mid-heavyweight and living long is negated by Kirby's amazing kill-power.
-Kirby's small size makes him harder to hit with lasers(although not impossible)

Stage CPs...Comfort stage? both characters have amazing recoveries that are hard to gimp.

Kirby kills better than ROB. However Kirby is lighter than ROB significantly which can lead to early kills if the Kirby isn't careful. Also a thing worth noting
DO NOT CHASE ROB OFFSTAGE. HE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO AIRDODGE WHILE RECOVERING BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE IS AN EASY TARGET OR EVEN GIMPABLE.
It should be noted that even MK is at risk when trying to get ROB offstage. Kirby can be gimped, stage-spiked with a fAir. Or if the ROB recovers high or under the stage to the other side. Kirby may be hard-pressed to keep up. Generally Kirby should harass the recovery from the ledge. But no further than that.
What Kirby should look out for:
-fAir(it is amazing)
-ftilt(can compete with Marth's fAir from the comfort of the ground)
-dtilt(trips which can lead to stuffs.) and is really fast and has a lot of range
-bAir(pushes ROB away from Kirby and shuts down approaches. Kirby is a close quarters character. Bair pushes ROB away retreating from Kirby's good zone and requires Kirby to approach. Also BAir has lingering hitboxes which mask ROBs retreat. Kirby might be able to fSmash through it if the ROB doesn't space it well(I am pretty sure)
-utilt- one of ROBs moves with less range(horizontally anyways) But really fast and rediculously good at shutting down overhead aerial approaches and getting opponents out of ROBs face(utilt>fthrow)
-Uair-if Kirby is above ROB, ROB can fAir before Kirby can dAir.
Laser and gyro-both have start up time that is unmistakable...learn to perfect shield these and the MU will be a lot easier on you.
dSmash-if you DI out.( I believe you can just TDI up and bAir ROB in the face) Do this and you will shut down a lot of ROBs defense.
fSmash-warning! this move is deceptive. It has very little ending lag and can be linked to other things if you try and rush in and punish it.

That is all I can think of at the moment.

My view is that the match is slightly in ROBs favor. He can camp, outrange, Kirby and can avoid Kirby's laggy kill moves with some ease. However Kirby can get ROBs ability and even the odds. Also juggles ROB, and when killmoves connect they can kill ROB very early.
My take
55:45

A2ZOMG · May 27, 2010

ROB definitely doesn't win this matchup. He may have better tools, but most of them really don't work very well on Kirby. In addition, ROB has a few weaknesses however that Kirby exploits REALLY easily on the other hand.

Firstoff, ROB really doesn't have very good anti-air options. He has a lot of trouble hitting anything that goes above a 40 degree angle from his head. Kirby thanks to having multiple jumps really doesn't care much about ROB's poke game and just needs to watch out for Up-angled F-smashes basically. Trading hits is always in Kirby's favor as well, and it's usually risky for ROB to jump due to his extreme floatiness and blind spots.

If there is any one matchup where getting inhaled by Kirby sucks, it's this one. Kirby camping ROB with his own laser is not fun for ROB to deal with, since he's a considerably larger target than Kirby.

While Kirby may have a subpar approach, ROB has one of the worst shields in the game, so he's actually pretty bad at defending against Kirby's approach when compared to most characters when you consider that Kirby has a fairly easy time hovering in his blind spot WHILE shield poking him.

Lastly, Kirby edgeguards ROB significantly better than the other way around. ROB has rather poor agility in the air (which is why OCEAN gets a lot of hype for using B reversals more than any other ROB player). Kirby's light weight is probably more likely to stop him from getting F-air comboed into oblivion more than anything when he gets edgeguarded by ROB. He can also Down-B through ROB's N-air edgeguard, something that is VERY annoying for ROB to deal with due to his lack of other solid vertical edgeguard options. And of course when Kirby edgeguards ROB, D-air (or Down-B if you wish) is pretty cruel to ROB's low recovery. And again trading hits is favorable for Kirby in this matchup.

It's a really slow matchup, and even though ROB may have more options in general, they just don't work well on Kirby, while Kirby kills ROB a lot earlier and can edgeguard him better.

I'd put the matchup 6/4 to 55/45 Kirby.

Sage JoWii · May 27, 2010

Lmao. So I looked at the Kirby boards and I saw who posted last in each of the threads; and I saw A2ZOMG posted last in this particular one. My first thought: Again? He's back again?? But it turns out he's in Kirby's favor for this matchUp.

I just had to comment on that.

A2ZOMG · May 27, 2010

I've lost to every Kirby I've played with ROB...and my ROB is actually pretty good.

I really can't see how the matchup is in ROB's favor at all when all the stuff that ROB is SUPPOSED to be good at, which includes walling, edgeguarding, and camping really just isn't very effective against Kirby due to his physics and size. And he still has trouble landing a kill move easily while Kirby kills ROB like 40-60% earlier in most cases.

Falconv1.0 · May 27, 2010

You know, A2ZOMG doesn't 'hate' Kirby, he's just realistic.

ROB's one of Kirby's match ups that isn't super effin' gay, so I <3 ROB mains.

Zwarm · May 29, 2010

As a ROB main, I hate this matchup. Mainly because my roommate mains Kirby, and he usually beats me.

Recently though, I've discovered the joys of planking, and I find myself winning a lot more often than not. Kirby having no projectiles (unless he steals ROB's) and slow air speed makes it really easy to play the run away game when I have a percent/stock lead. Honestly, I have to play this MU gay, or I lose.

ROB's advantages
-Projectiles
-Tilts
-Fair beats Kirby's bair if timed/spaced correctly
-Heck, ROB can outspace Kirby in a lot of situations
-Not very many offstage problems against Kirby

Kirby's advantages
-Kills a lot earlier that ROB would like
-Gonzo combo is still a good damage racker if DI is read properly
-Amazing sharking ability against ROB's blind spot.
-Has an easy time jumping in at ROB's blind spot on his head
-Deceptively long grab range that can grab out of ROB's dtilt if spaced wrong.
-Like most Kirby hats, Kirby can use ROB's laser better than he can. It also seems to refresh faster, but that just might be me

I make sure to avoid places where I can be sharked by Kirby's uair, so FD or Smashville is my neutral of choice, although we usually just do random when we play. BF surprisingly isn't too bad if I plank, but onstage isn't too fun for me.

Also, ROB should never bring Kirby to Brinstar, I learned that the hard way. Extended hitboxes on Kirby's bair/fsmash, sharking, and weird surfaces leading to weird laser angles all screw over ROB in the long run in this match up. Plus, Kirby can kill super early there.

Overall, I think this MU is 50:50. Kirby can get through ROB's camping better than some, usually by just jumping over everything, while he can't do much about ROB's planking if the ROB planks correctly (screw up and eat a dtilted fsmash).

A2ZOMG · May 29, 2010

ROB's planking is horrible lol. Everything he does on the ledge is just shenanigans and loses to shield and waiting him out (since his Up-B is limited). And his edge getup options are among the worst in the game, since you can feasibly react to all of them out of shield.

In that case, I would definitely put the matchup in Kirby's favor since anyone can fundamentally pick apart ROB's planking given the right mindset, and overall he has better control of the matchup on stage due to various dumb circumstances that just HAPPEN to work right for Kirby.

Zwarm · May 29, 2010

You do know ROB can plank without wasting fuel, right? You can stop his jump by hitting Up B as you pass the ledge to auto snap to it. So you can easily just drop a little bit, jump, and auto snap back onto the ledge. Yes, he sucks getting back onto the stage, but ROB has projectiles to shoot while on the ledge, and he can make his way back up that way.

Kappy · May 30, 2010

ZombieSwarm said:
As a ROB main, I hate this matchup. Mainly because my roommate mains Kirby, and he usually beats me.

Recently though, I've discovered the joys of planking, and I find myself winning a lot more often than not. Kirby having no projectiles (unless he steals ROB's) and slow air speed makes it really easy to play the run away game when I have a percent/stock lead. Honestly, I have to play this MU gay, or I lose.

ROB's advantages
-Projectiles
-Tilts
-Fair beats Kirby's bair if timed/spaced correctly
-Heck, ROB can outspace Kirby in a lot of situations
-Not very many offstage problems against Kirby

Kirby's advantages
-Kills a lot earlier that ROB would like
-Gonzo combo is still a good damage racker if DI is read properly
-Amazing sharking ability against ROB's blind spot.
-Has an easy time jumping in at ROB's blind spot on his head
-Deceptively long grab range that can grab out of ROB's dtilt if spaced wrong.
-Like most Kirby hats, Kirby can use ROB's laser better than he can. It also seems to refresh faster, but that just might be me

I make sure to avoid places where I can be sharked by Kirby's uair, so FD or Smashville is my neutral of choice, although we usually just do random when we play. BF surprisingly isn't too bad if I plank, but onstage isn't too fun for me.

Also, ROB should never bring Kirby to Brinstar, I learned that the hard way. Extended hitboxes on Kirby's bair/fsmash, sharking, and weird surfaces leading to weird laser angles all screw over ROB in the long run in this match up. Plus, Kirby can kill super early there.

Overall, I think this MU is 50:50. Kirby can get through ROB's camping better than some, usually by just jumping over everything, while he can't do much about ROB's planking if the ROB planks correctly (screw up and eat a dtilted fsmash).

Let me expand upon this (because I'm his roommate. LOL).

Gyro is ROB's friend, and it really does get in the way for Kirby. The only useful thing Kirby gets out of that gyro is an extended sweet spot for smashes. If ROB gets too Gyro-happy and you're on the opposite side of the stage, eating the gyro is usually a good option. Otherwise, shield, but don't get too shield happy or you'll get shield-poked.

Ftilt works wonders on Kirby unless he perfectly spaces Bair. Grabs are what really destroy ROB. Kirby has such a good grab range that almost everything save Ftilt, Dtilt, Bair, and Fsmash can be shield-grabbed.

If Kirby's Bair is already out, it will out prioritize ROB's Fair. If Kirby's spacing is wrong, ROB's Fair wins, if Kirby's spacing is right and both characters perform their respective moves, there'll be a trade.

Uair ***** ROB. This is one of the main reasons why ROB has problems with Kirby. Despite his slow aerial movement, he's an awesome juggler. Kirby can juggle ROB easily if ROB can't pull out a Fair to stop him. No other aerial will work - Kirby's Uair is too fast.

Utilt leads into a lot for Kirby, so it should be used often. Ftilt is a nice spacer to throw out every so often.

Kirby can chase ROB offstage. ROB should not be chasing Kirby offstage. It can work, but most of the time Kirby has a way to get around it and put ROB in a bad position. When Kirby chases ROB, ROB is hard-pressed for options since Kirby can hit ROB out of UpB without any real consequences. If ROB is above Kirby offstage, try going for a Uair, but watch out for a surprise Nair.

Even though Kirby can chase ROB, it's hard to gimp him. It's better to just get a KO off the side then go for a gimp.

With careful timing, Kirby can stop ROB's planking, but most of the time it's not worth it. I wouldn't. I'd let ROB get back onstage.

ROB's Uair out prioritizes Kirby's Dair. He should be using this whenever Kirby busts out a Dair offstage.

Do not use Nair when coming back onstage for ROB. It'll work the first time, and every other time you do it you'll eat a Bair, Fsmash, or Grab. Honestly, I think Fair is a better choice. Much harder to punish.

Even though ROB gets a free Dair, I would always, always swallow. Kirby instantly has an advantage once he acquires ROB's laser. He can out camp ROB with it, and it's very difficult for ROB to get past a Kirby with his own laser.

And while risky, Aerial Hammer hits more than you'd think against ROB. You just have to mix it up, and it nets you very early KOs.

And as others have said, Kirby kills ROB faster than ROB kills Kirby (unless ROB lands a Nair or Usmash). Fsmash kills between 110 - 140%, depending on stage placement and direction. Bair kills between 130 - 160% on-stage (it can be much lower if Kirby succeeds in landing a Bair while ROB is recovering). Aerial Hammer kills between 100 - 130% first hit, and between 100 - 120% on the second. Usmash and Dsmash both kill between 120 - 140%.

ROB kills Kirby between 120 - 140% with Fsmash, and ~150% with Dsmash. If ROB does land a Nair, I'd say between 100 - 120%, and Usmash is the same.

Stages are pretty much what Zwarm said. FD and SV are good (FD is better) for ROB. I think Kirby's a lot better on BF. Yoshi's Kirby is better, definitely. Kirby should be taking ROB to Delfino and Brinstar. I really can't think of a good ROB CP other than Frigate for Kirby, but even then Kirby's fine on that stage. There's really no stages one has on the other except Kirby on Delfino (due to sharking under the stage and the janky platforms) and Brinstar (which Zwarm explained is terrible for ROB vs Kirby).

Overall, my opinion is 50:50 when Kirby doesn't have ROB's laser, and 60:40 Kirby when he has ROB's laser. The reason I have a ratio for Kirby with and without ROB's ability is because I feel this is one of those match-ups where Kirby's copy ability can really turn the tide of the match to Kirby's favor if used properly.

Kewkky · Jun 3, 2010

We don't have an advantage on ROB, nor do we go even. It's ROB's advantage, probably slightly.

What ROB has that really causes us a lot of stress is his ftilt and retreating fairs, PLUS he can camp us. For us to get through to ROB, we have to read what he's gonna do, and that's no longer character vs character, but player vs player. If ROB walls us with fairs and ftilts, we can't approach unless we (power)shield whatever he does on the ground and grab/ftilt him. Otherwise, those attacks outrange and/or clash with everything we do, trading hits. And let's be honest here... Who's the lightest character of the two?

We might have an easier time killing ROB, but he has an easier tyme pressuring us and staying out of our range. By spacing nairs and ftilts (in that order, from a shnair to a grounded ftilt) they wall us in a way that if we miss our approach, we're gonna get hurt pretty bad. And we're the ones who are supposed to do the approaching, since ROB will eventually hit us from far away with his 2 projectiles. For us to get his laser, he's also gotta have to mess up his walls and spacing since we have to have 20 frames of ROB being vulnerable and not hitting us out of the startup, and even then he can just keep running away and stay out of our inhale range. Talking about what Kirby can do with the laser is nice and all, but if the process of obtaining the ability is too much of a hassle, then it's not really an MU-skewing factor, now is it? It's like saying "take Snake's grenades" while knowing Snake's got the range and projectiles to stay away from you, and hit you really very hard for missing an inhale. ROB can also dtilt, which is extremely safe on shield. This forces us to approach from the air, where he can retreat a shnair or a fair, and we'll find ourselves successfully walled and unable to approach him. What we have to do is force him to run out of space where he then can't wall us effectively.
As a side note, watch out for his pivot grab...

ROB's killing options are bair/nair/fsmash/usmash, and his killing throws are fthrow/bthrow (watch your DI at around 1xx% and you won't die from them). Bair and nair are pretty predictable and have quite a bit of strtup so you can avoid them as long as you don't airdodge into him, and his fsmash doesn't have the best range around so when at killing %s avoid being in a vulnerable position near him (killing %s being 120%+). Usmash, well, keep an eye out for that move when you're attempting to land on him with a dair or something, otherwise there's not much danger around that move... Our killing options are bair/fsmash/dsmash and uthrow for our killing throw, just try and keep your bair refreshed by pelting him with pummels and other attacks so you can kill him while spacing your attacks.

Our throws are nice since they leave us under him, but hands down our best throw in this MU is dthrow. ROB's blind spot is under him since his dair isn't a really good move at all, and it stops his descent, leaving him vulnerable to juggles. If ROB would spam dairs, frame-wise...

D-air:
Hitbox Out: Frame 20
Hitbox End: Frame 25
Move End: Frame 70
Autocancel?: Frame 27
Landing Lag: 21 Frames?

Hitbox Out: Frame 20
Hitbox End: Frame 25
Move End: Frame 70

1st dair = 70 frames total
2nd (buffered) dair = 140 frames total

Timeframe between the end of the first hitbox and start of the next hitbox:
70 frames - 25 frames = 45 frames of cooldown
45 frames of cooldown + 20 frames of startup = 65 frames total of vulnerability between dairs

... from the first dair's frame 25, to the second (buffered) dair's frame 20, it's 65 frames of vulnerability, so it gives us a LOT of time to do whatever we want to him, and he pretty much didn't get closer to the stage at all... THAT'S how vulnerable he is from below. And if he hits you while you're both over the stage, worst thing that WILL happen is that you take the damage and get sent back down to the stage, but you'll never die while juggling to that. So if he's recovering from high, expect some other form of "GTFO moves" from him like fastfalled nairs, or watch him to see what he does while landing and wait for him with a shield raised, ready to shieldgrab whatever he decides on throwing at you. And this all can be set-up from a dthrow, since we stay directly beneath him, at his most vulnerable spot! NOTE: I'm not saying ROB's going to dair spam you from above, I'm pointing out why ROB WON'T dair spam you from above.

Stages, I would suggest ones without platforms, or stages that are dynamic and have lots of hazards moving around. We might enjoy platforms, but he enjoys them more than us. He can nair us from below safely, utilt us off the platforms, uair from below safely (which multi-hits), usmash safely... It's his sanctuary from us, and for us to avoid this danger, we should just avoid stationary platforms altogether. Dynamic stages like Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium, Smashville (due to the moving platform) and other such places are better for us since ROB can't set up a wall as safely as in stationary stages like Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Frigate and other sorts. Our goal is to strip him of his advantages, and that's what you should be thinking at all times (since there's no "bad" stages if he decides on turtling, except those who remove his stage-wise advantages).

ROB is annoying. His walls and camping can be gotten around of, but there's still the reality that he's a very annoying camper who can camp us well, as well as he can avoid being inhaled or gimped. Slight disadvantage I would say, since what he is is nothing more of an annoyance, ad once we gain a stock advantage there's nothing he can do but attempt to approach OUR walls which should be annoying for HIM.

A2ZOMG · Jun 3, 2010

Kewky, I have two words for you. Stop sucking.

ROB's camping is ***. If you're letting it beat you, you suck at this game. ROB can't really force you to make a bad approach since you can easily react to his projectiles in most situations unless he's juggling/edgeguarding you. His time is usually better spent semi-aggressively going for pokes from neutral state.

ROB is in fact all tilt walls/pokes and a few aerials. The PROBLEM for ROB is that he really can't realistically anti-air safely. And that's where Kirby easily can have his way with ROB, since ROB really doesn't have a good option for stopping you from hovering over his head. Plus his shield can't take much abuse. Another nice exploit on ROB is fullhopped aerials. Don't overlook those as potential poke options.

And besides, ROB has no business jumping in the majority of his matchups. He's pretty prone getting punished for jumping due to his extreme floatiness and lack of agility (except against like...Ganon lol). And he does not like trading hits especially in a matchup like this where he can get killed earlier than his opponent. At any rate if he's doing a lot of aerials, you can probably bait him all day with airdodge -> U-tilt to make his life miserable. Just a statement that ROB is very very floaty.

He also has no business retreating all day. If he can't consistently force an approach (and he really can't) and all he has on Kirby fundamentally is retreat spacing in order to wall you out, he definitely doesn't win this matchup. So stop sucking.

And since I'm putting an emphasis on ROB's lack of agility, I should be clear that the threat of Kirby's Down-B is actually legit in this matchup. Enough that ROB has to think twice before having his way with Kirby when Kirby is above him, since ROB jumping = very punishable (his best option for juggling here is baiting your landing and resetting the situation with a throw, although it's worth knowing at low percents, he can D-throw -> U-air, and it's moderately difficult to avoid). This also can really screw up ROB's attempts to edgeguard Kirby (high recovery of course) since he has rather poor vertical options when edgeguarding. Edgeguarding him with Down-B isn't a horrible option either if he's recovering low.

Kewkky · Jun 3, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
Kewky, I have two words for you. Stop sucking.

Uh-huh. I have the perfect answer to that....

ROB's camping is ***. If you're letting it beat you, you suck at this game. ROB can't really force you to make a bad approach since you can easily react to his projectiles in most situations unless he's juggling/edgeguarding you. His time is usually better spent semi-aggressively going for pokes from neutral state.

His camping WILL get to you. We may be able to shield it, but it forces us to approach by using our shields thus depleting it while we get closer, then he starts walling you while you have a depleted shield. If you just sit back and wait for your shield to recover, he'll just gain some more distance again and then it's back to square 1.

ROB is in fact all tilt walls/pokes and a few aerials. The PROBLEM for ROB is that he really can't realistically anti-air safely. And that's where Kirby easily can have his way with ROB, since ROB really doesn't have a good option for stopping you from hovering over his head. Plus his shield can't take much abuse. Another nice exploit on ROB is fullhopped aerials. Don't overlook those as potential poke options.

ROB can AA from below with utilt easily until he pushes you out from on top of him, then he just reacts accordingly to whatever the opponent does. Or he can just shorthop an uair: with its multihit property, even if he starts it too early, he'll get you. And ROB's best horizontal AAs are retreating nairs and retreating fairs. Nairs are very disjointed so they have no risk of trading hits with anyone, and even less so since it can be a killing move and is fresh over half the match. Fair has a very noce horizontal range and can reach Kirby before he positions himself just right for bairs, so it forces him to try and get over ROB or under him. And with a retreating fair, getting over ROB or under him is impossible with our aerial movement.

And besides, ROB has no business jumping in the majority of his matchups. He's pretty prone getting punished for jumping due to his extreme floatiness and lack of agility (except against like...Ganon lol). And he does not like trading hits especially in a matchup like this where he can get killed earlier than his opponent. At any rate if he's doing a lot of aerials, you can probably bait him all day with airdodge -> U-tilt to make his life miserable. Just a statement that ROB is very very floaty.

If you try and depend on a gimmick like airdodge>utilt, you should know that ROB will figure this out and punish Kirby for it. Hell if we airdodge into him he'll just run to the ground then dsmash while we land and send us right out.

He also has no business retreating all day. If he can't consistently force an approach (and he really can't) and all he has on Kirby fundamentally is retreat spacing in order to wall you out, he definitely doesn't win this matchup. So stop sucking.

If all he can do is space and camp, you should know that we don't have the tools to camp back. We're forced to approach him and confront his full camping and walling full-force and try and find an opening on his strategy.

And since I'm putting an emphasis on ROB's lack of agility, I should be clear that the threat of Kirby's Down-B is actually legit in this matchup. Enough that ROB has to think twice before having his way with Kirby when Kirby is above him, since ROB jumping = very punishable (his best option for juggling here is baiting your landing and resetting the situation with a throw, although it's worth knowing at low percents, he can D-throw -> U-air, and it's moderately difficult to avoid). This also can really screw up ROB's attempts to edgeguard Kirby (high recovery of course) since he has rather poor vertical options when edgeguarding. Edgeguarding him with Down-B isn't a horrible option either if he's recovering low.

Why would ROB even follow you up that high? If you ask me, that's a poor decision right there. And ROB will be aiming to hit Kirby when Kirby's in his uair range, so he has more than enough time to see the stone coming and airdodge. If Kirby starts the downB near ROB, ROB can just cover the remaining distance and uair Kirby out of the downB startup. Our downB startup is 29 frames and the hitbox+invincibility comes out at frame 30, while ROB's uair starts at frame 7, pretty much implying that ROB has 22 frames max to reach Kirby and start an uair. That's enough to realize if he's not gonna make it, so he has time to think if he wants to airdodge instead. Average human reaction time is 10 frames, and ROB has 22 frames to think if he wants to airdodge or not. After airdodging, ROB can just fastfall a nair if we're cancelling our downB near him and he'd be totally safe whether he hit us or not due to how disjointed that attack is.

Kappy · Jun 3, 2010

A2..did you..did you really just say Kirby's Rock is legit against ROB?

It will never be in Kirby's favor unless Kirby has ROB's laser. Kewwky's hitting everything right on the money, although I still believe it to be even. 55-45 ROB at the MOST.

Kirby's Rock is only good if ROB tries to recover from under the stage. A ROB should not be chasing Kirby, period, so Rock should never happen except to punish over-aggressive ROB's and if a ROB decides to recover low for damage and to stop a ROB's usual Nair or Uair anti-edge guard strategy.

Kirby should not be above ROB. ROB should not be above Kirby.

And ROB can force an approach. He'd be low tier if he couldn't, honestly. Camping is a big part of his game.

Kewkky · Jun 3, 2010

gamemasterdevil said:
It will never be in Kirby's favor unless Kirby has ROB's laser. Kewwky's hitting everything right on the money, although I still believe it to be even. 55-45 ROB at the MOST.

That's a slight disadvantage, so you still agreed with me. Hohoho~!

Kappy · Jun 3, 2010

In a way, yes. XD There's a slight disadvantage, but I think it's such a small disadvantage (with ratios, I'd say it's 51-49 ROB) that it could be stated as even.

A2ZOMG · Jun 3, 2010

Point remains, Kirby juggles ROB a lot better than the other way around. ROB sucks a lot in the air when he isn't actually hitting his target. Unless it's something like D-throw -> U-air at low percents, ROB really doesn't have any business jumping at anyone besides like DK for the purpose of juggling. The most you should expect from ROB is him to chase you down with grabs, since he actually takes a huge risk in most situations if he jumps at you (and mind you, his damage output is really low).

ROB can't really stop you from approaching him. His lasers can only really punish or be used as followup tools, they don't change anything in actually approaching him. He sucks at stopping Kirby's approach and MUST use retreat spacing in order to avoid it. I'm not seeing how ROB stands a chance at actually doing anything to Kirby without relying on retreats, since he can't rely on shield and his poke game is easily avoided due to Kirby's multiple jumps. Just hover right outside of his U-tilt range and above his F-smash range and he really can't stop you from approaching him at all. His best bet is F-air, and trading hits is in your favor by a significant margin in this situation.

As long as you DI well ROB also has no business edgeguarding Kirby either, due to his inability to really juggle efficiently and cover vertical options, and Kirby is a character who doesn't get autoraped by ROB's N-air edgeguard since if necessary, he can Down-B through it, and thanks to ROB being really floaty, he's in no position to be punishing it for it being used in this manner.

Plus ROB's ledge game is TRASH. You can react to EVERYTHING ROB does out of shield, and you have a kill move for punishing each of his getups on reaction.

Kewkky · Jun 3, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
Point remains, Kirby juggles ROB a lot better than the other way around. ROB sucks a lot in the air when he isn't actually hitting his target. Unless it's something like D-throw -> U-air at low percents, ROB really doesn't have any business jumping at anyone besides like DK for the purpose of juggling. The most you should expect from ROB is him to chase you down with grabs, since he actually takes a huge risk in most situations if he jumps at you (and mind you, his damage output is really low).

Okay, I agree with this. But ROB also jumps to stop our short-hopped approaches by retreating fairs at us, or the occasional RAR bair (for those who don't know, it means that ROB is gonna run at you then turn around and bair, like how we do it... Difference is that his bair pushes him back to where he was, making it a very safe maneuver BUT only for defensive purposes since it can be avoided on reaction).

ROB can't really stop you from approaching him. His lasers can only really punish or be used as followup tools, they don't change anything in actually approaching him. He sucks at stopping Kirby's approach and MUST use retreat spacing in order to avoid it. I'm not seeing how ROB stands a chance at actually doing anything to Kirby without relying on retreats, since he can't rely on shield and his poke game is easily avoided due to Kirby's multiple jumps. Just hover right outside of his U-tilt range and above his F-smash range and he really can't stop you from approaching him at all. His best bet is F-air, and trading hits is in your favor by a significant margin in this situation.

Kirby's a character that can take aggressive people and destroy them. Even aggressive MKs can get destroyed by Kirby, since all we hav to do is react with the proper move. Our moveset is so versatile that we have practically every situation covered... Except when we get camped hard, or are constantly outranged by disjointed attacks.

That said, if ROB has an advantage, all he has to do is keep lasering, throwing out downBs, retreating aerials, uairing us when he's on the ledge, and upBing under the stage to the other side if he runs out of space. It's gonna be very hard for us to get past that since he's taking advantage of our one weakness: our inability to challenge campers with our own camping. If we have an advantage, ROB is gonna have a hard time approaching us, but he might as well just stay in mid-range and throw out as many lasers and gyros as he desires until he hits us enough times. We're only human, we can't (power)shield consistently for a whole match nonstop.

Still, ROB has his pivot grab for when we're approaching.we get close enough, they run away a little and BAM we just got grabbed by a disjointed grabbox. It's pretty much the same thing we hate about Snake besides the obvious tilts, Snake can just camp away when we're far away, tilt when we're in mid-range and pivot grab when we're close enough. That's exactly what ROB'll be doing, but since his tilts and aerials aren't as powerful or disjointed like Snake's, we can challenge them easier, this making this MU a slight disadvantage, instead of a disadvantage like Snake is.

As long as you DI well ROB also has no business edgeguarding Kirby either, due to his inability to really juggle efficiently and cover vertical options, and Kirby is a character who doesn't get autoraped by ROB's N-air edgeguard since if necessary, he can Down-B through it, and thanks to ROB being really floaty, he's in no position to be punishing it for it being used in this manner.

Kirby doesn't get edgeguarded to death by anyone, really. Having 5 jumps, floatiness and a vertical upB helps a whole lot. If we're stage-level and ROB thinks it's a cool idea to try and do something to Kirby AND we manage to get on top of him while offstage, ROB is going to have to watch out for our dair, which combos into a footstool, which we'll just tap the jump button so as to 'shorthop' the footstool. ROB will be too low to ump back on-stage so he'll start using his upB to do so, meanwhile we'll have buffered yet another dair which will combo into yet another 'shorthopped' footstool... One whole stock gone for ROB because he tried edgeguarding against a character that shouldn't be edgeguarded.

So, as any campy character will do, ROB will just stay on-stage waiting for us to get back onto it. Of course, meanwhile he'll be throwing out lasers and charging his gyro.

Plus ROB's ledge game is TRASH. You can react to EVERYTHING ROB does out of shield, and you have a kill move for punishing each of his getups on reaction.

Heh, if he tries getting up on the ledge he's gonna eat a frametrapping, charged, up-angled fsmash whenever he's below 100%. If he's above 100%, we'll just grab, pummel, and refresh our bair so we can kill him with it. You're completely right here, but only if the ROB decides on trying to get back onstage with us near him. He COULD upB under the stage to the other side, then uair/nair us out of the ledge if we reach it first and grab it, thus giving him safe passage back onto the stage.

t!MmY · Jun 7, 2010

Shield Lasers and Gyros.
Get closer
Shield his F-tilt.
Get closer.
Shield his Jab/D-smash. Dodge his Grab.
Grab R.O.B. at low percents. Tilt him at higher percents unless U-throw would K.O. Aerial out of Shield is a good option.
Don't use a brutish approach, attack between his attacks when he's vulnerable.
Fight him off stage. Do it, but do it smart. If you D-air him, he won't die unless you do it at least 2 or 3 times.
Don't kid yourself. It really isn't worth D-airing ROB.
Use F-smash to KO at about 100%.
Pray that the ROB doesn't know how easy it is to punish F-smash.
If ROB isn't running head long into your F-smashes, unspam your B-air and KO him at 150% to 170% with it.
Maybe go for that U-throw KO after all.

Slight Advantage. ROB's favor.

jiovanni007 · Jun 9, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
ROB's camping is ***. If you're letting it beat you, you suck at this game.

You were kind of a **** in the Gdub discussion but these statements are absolutely true. As a Kirby player you need to realize that most of the of the cast has the advantage over you on the ground if you can't get in close. So you take to the air. If ROB camps you out as Kirby you're either bad or don't know the match-up. 6 jumps plus airdodges means all you have to do is float around and make ROB approach. When he does, that's when you simply space and punish. Despite ROB wanting to go camping, under no circumstance should you approach in this match. Its only gonna get you punished, HARD. Well not that hard but hard enough to put you in a non winning position. This match is even, or in Kirby's advantage whenever he can manage to copy. Copying can make this match a lot easier but if you're confident in your anti camping don't waste ur time and effort.

Zwarm · Jun 10, 2010

jiovanni007 said:
You were kind of a **** in the Gdub discussion but these statements are absolutely true. As a Kirby player you need to realize that most of the of the cast has the advantage over you on the ground if you can't get in close. So you take to the air. If ROB camps you out as Kirby you're either bad or don't know the match-up. 6 jumps plus airdodges means all you have to do is float around and make ROB approach. When he does, that's when you simply space and punish. Despite ROB wanting to go camping, under no circumstance should you approach in this match. Its only gonna get you punished, HARD. Well not that hard but hard enough to put you in a non winning position. This match is even, or in Kirby's advantage whenever he can manage to copy. Copying can make this match a lot easier but if you're confident in your anti camping don't waste ur time and effort.

Umm. ROB... having to approach? Especially against someone with no projectile? I don't think so.

jiovanni007 · Jun 10, 2010

ZombieSwarm said:
Umm. ROB... having to approach? Especially against someone with no projectile? I don't think so.

gyro is a moot issue since kirby wont be on the ground at long range. so basically ur only long range option is a laser which cant hit at certain angles and can only be fired off about every three seconds. lol u never met a campy kirby, he can literally make this match stalemate and air camp lasers indefinitely. do you have the patience to continue to try to laser kirby if you miss for literally four or five minutes? its how the match is played, if rob is at range take to the air and he wont hit you with lasers at all...unless ur bad.

Kewkky · Jun 10, 2010

jiovanni007 said:
You were kind of a **** in the Gdub discussion but these statements are absolutely true. As a Kirby player you need to realize that most of the of the cast has the advantage over you on the ground if you can't get in close. So you take to the air. If ROB camps you out as Kirby you're either bad or don't know the match-up. 6 jumps plus airdodges means all you have to do is float around and make ROB approach. When he does, that's when you simply space and punish. Despite ROB wanting to go camping, under no circumstance should you approach in this match. Its only gonna get you punished, HARD. Well not that hard but hard enough to put you in a non winning position. This match is even, or in Kirby's advantage whenever he can manage to copy. Copying can make this match a lot easier but if you're confident in your anti camping don't waste ur time and effort.

It's not that ROB will 'beat you with his camping'... It's more along the lines of ROB being able to pressure you from afar, and forcing you to guess if you have to shield or not while you get closer to regain an advantage. While you keep getting closer, his walls start getting stronger and harder to bypass since he now can hit you with projectiles AND attacks, plus he can retreat and pivot grab an approach of yours as well.

If we take to the air, then either ROB just keeps on camping us, uairs/fairs/retreating nairs/RAR bairs us, or he just shields and waits until we're near him near the ground and dsmashes.... Our approaches depend on shielddashing and outspeeding his options. We're the ones with less disjointed range all around, so it's only natural that we have the harder time approaching.

jiovanni007 · Jun 10, 2010

Kewkky said:
It's not that ROB will 'beat you with his camping'... It's more along the lines of ROB being able to pressure you from afar, and forcing you to guess if you have to shield or not while you get closer to regain an advantage. While you keep getting closer, his walls start getting stronger and harder to bypass since he now can hit you with projectiles AND attacks, plus he can retreat and pivot grab an approach of yours as well.

If we take to the air, then either ROB just keeps on camping us, uairs/fairs/retreating nairs/RAR bairs us, or he just shields and waits until we're near him near the ground and dsmashes.... Our approaches depend on shielddashing and outspeeding his options. We're the ones with less disjointed range all around, so it's only natural that we have the harder time approaching.

ur missing the point if you try to approach. dont approach. if you get hit with lasers from afar then you're bad. the point is to make rob realize that lasering from afar wont work and to force him to approach. if you approach then you're playing the matchup wrong plain and simple. run away and wait for him to attack and counter.

Triple R · Jun 10, 2010

jiovanni007 said:
dont approach.

And here I mastered the art of approaching in brawl because kirby has to approach in basically every match of every set you will ever play. Seriously just approach people already, kirby has enough options lol. The idea of outcamping ROB is kinda farfetched lol.

jiovanni007 · Jun 10, 2010

Triple R said:
And here I mastered the art of approaching in brawl because kirby has to approach in basically every match of every set you will ever play. Seriously just approach people already, kirby has enough options lol. The idea of outcamping ROB is kinda farfetched lol.

there are only some matches in which you should approach without question. rob is a matchup in which approaching will get you punished more often than not. if you dont approach then you can force rob to approach and counter his tactics or time him out lol.

Kappy · Jun 10, 2010

Jiovanni, your theory is really weak. Don't approach?

You do realize that if you just sit there for 8 minutes and neither you nor ROB take damage then it is a complete stalemate, and that is the stupidest thing ever. Someone needs to be hit, whether you like it or not.

You do realize that you have to approach since ROB has the possibility of hitting us. What do we have? Dodging? LOL. You have to go and attack to gain the percent lead, and then do your camping, but then ROB will be approaching you to regain the percent lead.

So, do not think that ROB has to approach. Kirby has to approach in the beginning of any match played with ROB. Your silly 'Don't approach' literally says, "Let's not play for 8 minutes, mmk?"

Not very fun if you ask me. May as well go grab a snack with your opponent and come back 8 minutes later.

Zwarm · Jun 11, 2010

Only a bad ROB can't hit people with projectiles. You know ROB can jump and shoot projectiles too... right? It's not like Kirby can stay above his projectiles forever. Plus, ROB can, you know, throw his gyro upwards to hit Kirby. Don't act like it's impossible to get hit by ROB's projectiles. Unless Kirby has a percent/stock lead, he ROB should never have to approach in this match up.

jiovanni007 · Jun 11, 2010

gamemasterdevil said:
Jiovanni, your theory is really weak. Don't approach?

You do realize that if you just sit there for 8 minutes and neither you nor ROB take damage then it is a complete stalemate, and that is the stupidest thing ever. Someone needs to be hit, whether you like it or not.

You do realize that you have to approach since ROB has the possibility of hitting us. What do we have? Dodging? LOL. You have to go and attack to gain the percent lead, and then do your camping, but then ROB will be approaching you to regain the percent lead.

So, do not think that ROB has to approach. Kirby has to approach in the beginning of any match played with ROB. Your silly 'Don't approach' literally says, "Let's not play for 8 minutes, mmk?"

Not very fun if you ask me. May as well go grab a snack with your opponent and come back 8 minutes later.

i actually typed a really good repky earlier today but my dumb smartphone messed it up

basically if you play matches for fun, you're not playing the match up. if kirby aoproaches in the beginning of this match then don't play kirby. if rob really tries to camp then he has to use his once every three second projectile. due to stage striking its impossible for rob to choose fd whic is the best stage for him against kirby specifically. so for example if you end up on bf then kirby can camp the lower platforms and negate the gyro from long range. if rob has to throw the gyro uopward than he has to approach which is the point of the kirby camping strategy. if all kirby focuses on is dodging robs laser then its very easy. if kirby tries to approach while dodging lasers it becomes much harder.
so what if the match takes eight minutes and ends with both players at 3 stocks with 0%, that means both parties played the match perfectly because rob never approached and kirby never got hit with projectiles. case and point is that not everyone is perfect so either rob will approach or kirby will approach. zombie are you ready to spam lasers for eight minutes? if you can't then pray you never fight my kirby because i'll make you frustrayed enough to approach, doge your attacks until i get an opening and run for the rest of the match.

kirby's defensive options are very underrated. if all you can do is spam a projectile at a 30 degree angle every 3 seconds then a top level kirby would avoid it until you make a bad approach.

if you say not approaching is boring and not fun then try playibg to win. if kirby is playing to win in this match up tha if rob isn't close and he isn't losing by percent then he should aircamp. don't be a scrub, play to win. that's what maych up discussions are about.

Kappy · Jun 12, 2010

All right. If we ever play, I'm going to play ROB and NC the match, and when you ask why, I'll say, "Well, we were never going to approach, so why bother playing?" Then we'll go back to the same stage, and I'll NC again because we'd both be at 0% anyway, why bother playing the match through? Then we'll do it again...and again...

I do play to win. When I have the PERCENT OR STOCK LEAD, I do NOT approach. If you end 8 minutes with both at 0%, and both players are perfect (which is a given when doing matchups), then how the hell do Kirby or ROB ever WIN, hmm?

It would be an endless cycle of matches where Kirby and ROB never approach each other, because Kirby has no projectiles and ROB would always miss (according to you), so ROB can keep trying to hit Kirby with projectiles and MISS, while Kirby has no projectile to even TRY to hit ROB with. That match would never, ever, ever, ever, ever END. They'd have to make you play RPS or something like that (or maybe make the actual players fight each other) to see who'd win the match, because there'd never be a victor.

I hope you're actually seeing why you're 'Force ROB to approach' theory is starting to crumble through. At 0%, if one character has a projectile and one doesn't, the one WITHOUT the projectile has to approach, or else it'd turn into an endless cycle of 0% matches.

Your "only human" argument, by the way, basically said, "Kirby's not perfect, so he'll probably be hit by a laser or two." What's ROb going to be hit with? Inhale? Final Cutter? Some people are extremely patient, and they can handle 8 minutes of nothing.

Sage JoWii · Jun 12, 2010

Enough of this back and forth.

@ gameblahblah- If you want to win, don't approach the whole 8 minutes and wait for the ROB to get frustrated and approach. If you don't think they will, you're naive. I realize that doesn't sound like fun but winning is.

@jiovanni- I can see your point and I agree but (and even though I've never seen you play) you can't expect to dodge and aircamp everything because...

jiovanni007 said:
...case and point is that not everyone is perfect...

....meaning there's the possibility you don't time your dodge correctly, maybe your hand slips on the controller, maybe you press the wrong button, etc.

So to both of you- Enough plz.

@ Everyone- Discuss CPs plz and we'll end this.

Kappy · Jun 13, 2010

JoWiiCIDE said:
@ gameblahblah- If you want to win, get a percent or stock lead and then don't approach the whole 8 minutes and wait for the ROB to get frustrated and approach.

I fixed that for you.

I played a match yesterday with Kirk, a semi-retired Ike player, and do you know what he did? He NEVER approached. Do you know what I did?

I ran forward and shielded his retreating aerial. If he mis-spaced, I grabbed, if he didn't, I ran away and did it again. When my shield was low, I air camped until it regenerated. That was almost an 8-minute match, and even when I had the % lead, I literally did nothing but run in, shield, shieldgrab, run away, and the occasional Bair. When it came down to the wire, I did NOTHING ELSE but those few things.

Do not tell me someone won't approach and that I'm naive. Like you said, anyone will do anything to win. A ROB will wait for Kirby to become frustrated, not the other way around, simply because ROB has the tools to sit back and just camp. And because we are only human, ROB will get in a hit if Kirby never approaches.

Kirby has to approach, period. Continue to try and prove me wrong and I will continue to tell you that Kirby has to approach. Now we're done with that little debate.

CP's are pretty simple. Kirby has Brinstar, Delfino, PS1. RC is pretty even for Kirby vs ROB, and I can only really see ROB having Frigate, but even then that's not a bad stage for Kirby. Maybe Halberd because of the low ceiling?

Zwarm · Jun 13, 2010

@jowii: We play a character that's used to not approaching, why would we get frustrated and approach when we don't have to? You're naive if you think a camper could get frustrated when not being hit by anything, only terrible players would miss every single projectile.

@jiovanni: Dude, seriously, ROB NEVER has to approach when both characters are at 0%. ROB has no problem sitting around camping all day if the Kirby doesn't want to approach/actually attempt to win. Also, ROB's laser doesn't take 3 seconds to recharge, it's like, 1 second, I'm not 100% on the time, but it's not nearly 3 seconds. He gets them way more often than it seems you think he does, and it's impossible to avoid all of them unless the ROB is awful. ROB doesn't have to approach when he throws the gyro up, I have no idea what you're talking about. If the match is happening like you make it out to be, the Kirby is gonna be way up in the air above ROB's awful projectiles, and therefore cannot punish the gyro toss, since ROB is still on the ground.

@both of you: Seriously, get your facts straight before talking like you know ROB, and unless you play this matchup as much as Kappy and I do, I think it's pretty hard to argue with the points we made.

As for CP's, Kirby, take ROB to Brinstar or Halberd for sharking/small blastzones, ROB, take Kirby to Frigate or FD if they don't ban it for larger blastzones and better camping. There.

jiovanni007 · Jun 13, 2010

gamemasterdevil said:
I fixed that for you.

I played a match yesterday with Kirk, a semi-retired Ike player, and do you know what he did? He NEVER approached. Do you know what I did?

I ran forward and shielded his retreating aerial. If he mis-spaced, I grabbed, if he didn't, I ran away and did it again. When my shield was low, I air camped until it regenerated. That was almost an 8-minute match, and even when I had the % lead, I literally did nothing but run in, shield, shieldgrab, run away, and the occasional Bair. When it came down to the wire, I did NOTHING ELSE but those few things.

Do not tell me someone won't approach and that I'm naive. Like you said, anyone will do anything to win. A ROB will wait for Kirby to become frustrated, not the other way around, simply because ROB has the tools to sit back and just camp. And because we are only human, ROB will get in a hit if Kirby never approaches.

Kirby has to approach, period. Continue to try and prove me wrong and I will continue to tell you that Kirby has to approach. Now we're done with that little debate.

CP's are pretty simple. Kirby has Brinstar, Delfino, PS1. RC is pretty even for Kirby vs ROB, and I can only really see ROB having Frigate, but even then that's not a bad stage for Kirby. Maybe Halberd because of the low ceiling?

Difference here being that that Ike =/= ROB. The Ike match becomes easier if you approach, the ROB matchup is more difficult if you approach. Ike can punish with jabs, maybe try to land a shopped aerial but like you stated that only got him grabbed so Ike doesn't have many options. Thinking that just because someone has a projectile means you have to approach is a pretty standard way to approach any matchup.

ZombieSwarm said:
@jiovanni: Dude, seriously, ROB NEVER has to approach when both characters are at 0%. ROB has no problem sitting around camping all day if the Kirby doesn't want to approach/actually attempt to win. Also, ROB's laser doesn't take 3 seconds to recharge, it's like, 1 second, I'm not 100% on the time, but it's not nearly 3 seconds. He gets them way more often than it seems you think he does, and it's impossible to avoid all of them unless the ROB is awful. ROB doesn't have to approach when he throws the gyro up, I have no idea what you're talking about. If the match is happening like you make it out to be, the Kirby is gonna be way up in the air above ROB's awful projectiles, and therefore cannot punish the gyro toss, since ROB is still on the ground.

So i just did a rough test and the laser recharge has ~2second cooldown period. That coupled with the extra obvious animation makes it easy to dodge. What everyone here seems to be missing is that Kirby can easily dance around lasers indefinitely with little problem is that's all that he's focusing on. Of course you'll take at least one laser if you try to approach while avoiding lasers since your attention is diverted but if you can concentrate on doing one thing for 8 minutes then this may not be the game for you. I'm not saying never approach with Kirby period, I'm saying approaching shouldn't be the first option in this matchup. Ftilt is a monster and unless the ROB is slipping or caught doing something he shouldn't be doing expect to eat on from any shopped approach. That is the whol reason why I argue staying away. What's the worst that could happen, you get hit by a laser for 4%? K not as bad as a failed approach that gets ftilted then you get grabbed -> lasered -> glide toss gyro fsmashed.

And as far as the gyro goes you do have to approach to throw it vertically to hit an airborne Kirby. Are you ignorant or just slow? You have to be directly under Kirby or within glide toss distance to throw a gyro vertically to hit an airborne Kirby. Assuming you're on the left side of battlefield and Kirby is on the right side in the air and you realize that hitting a target such as Kirby with lasers is a pretty tough task and you move to the other side of the stage to throw a gyro up or if you move to the middle and then glide toss moving towards Kirby how is that not approaching? I dunno maybe I'm dumb and don't really know what approaching is. I was under the impression that approaching is moving from a further point of reference with respect to your opponent to a closer point of reference with respect to your opponent.

Also Kirby will never be that high above the ground while aircamping. When you consider ROB can glide toss a nice distance it would be dumb to just float as high as possible because then he could easily punish our descent. You mindgame him to never know when you're gonna land. Maybe land directly after a full jump once and after 3 mid air jumps the next time and then after one midair jump the next time. Simply put aircamping with Kirby is a very underrated tactic in a few (not many but just a few) matches.

As far as stages go always ban FD and Yoshi's. Platforms are necessary in order to aircamp effectivly and FD lacks platforms and YI's isn't reliable due to tilting. PS1 is the best choice out of the MLG starters but would probably get stuck by any ROB that has enough confidence in his skills to even enter a tournament. BF and brinstar are also good options. BF for aircamp enabling and brinstar for anticamping and shory blast zones (watch out for fsmash and bair edgeuards though). If PS1 is struck for the beginning level try to counterpick it. With the exception of the water level its the best you can get against rob.

Kappy · Jun 14, 2010

jiovanni007 said:
Difference here being that that Ike =/= ROB. The Ike match becomes easier if you approach, the ROB matchup is more difficult if you approach.

I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to JoWii about how one person can perform the same things over and over without getting frustrated. He made it out to be that Kirby won't get frustrated and ROB will, when, really, it's the player that'll get frustrated, not the character.

And to add on to that, I was having fun during that match, despite how boring it probably was to watch.

Thinking that just because someone has a projectile means you have to approach is a pretty standard way to approach any matchup.

Um... yeah? Thanks for mirroring back my point. That's exactly how Kirby should be entering a match against characters with projectiles. Instead of thinking of not approaching, he should be thinking of ways to creatively approach the camping opponent and get that first percent in. Then he doesn't have to approach anymore once he has a comfortable lead.

If you can't concentrate on doing one thing for 8 minutes then this may not be the game for you.

Concentrating on avoiding ROB and never attacking him means ROB's going to concentrate on hitting you with the projectile. And if you're both at 0% for 8 minutes, then my other point about a set taking forever would come up.

Sure, once you get the % or stock lead you can go ahead and air camp the rest of the time and time out ROB. Be my guest! What I'm saying is that at 0%, whether you like it or not, whether you take 7 minutes to do it, you're going to have to be the first one to approach ROB as Kirby.

What's the worst that could happen, you get hit by a laser for 4%? K not as bad as a failed approach that gets ftilted then you get grabbed -> lasered -> glide toss gyro fsmashed.

K there's that 4% you'll be at when ROB's at 0% because you never decided to approach. Please tell me you know you have to approach once your opponent has the % or stock lead.

And as far as the gyro goes you do have to approach to throw it vertically to hit an airborne Kirby.

This is true. ROB can Jump or UpB to throw his Gyro a farther vertical distance and possibly hit Kirby that way, without approaching at all.

I'm not stopping until my point is proven. We can go all day, jiovanni. Unless you can show me video proof of this anti-approach strategy netting you a victory, I will refute every point you make that doesn't make sense to me.

Sage JoWii · Jun 14, 2010

Well since the MU Summary has already been put up the senseless arguing is moot.

And if I say 'the ROB' it's like saying 'the ROB player' but I thought it went without saying. Apparently you needed it spelled out.

@Kappy- Well you could go all day and refute that which you don't understand (stupidity) and you may be right but @ this point you've both made your points clear and are just clogging up my export thread. Ppl come to this export to gain the pointers on the matchup; lemme state cleary that this IS NOT A APPROACH VS NON-APPROACH thread and while that is relevant to this matchup you've both stated your opinions and are now restating until you feel the other will get the point which doesn't seem likely to happen.

Take it to a PM.

Triple R · Jun 14, 2010

Does Gamemasterdevil = Kappy?

Don't have that much to say about this matchup because the most ROB experience I have is on wifi. Even then though I've never had much of a problem approaching. His tilts can be pretty ugly though.

jiovanni007 · Jun 14, 2010

gamemasterdevil said:
stuff

All the quotes you took were removed from context when you separated them. You still don't understand the point I'm trying to make anyway. Your point is that Kirby has to approach to get a percent lead otherwise a stalemate ends in a draw. My point is that approaching rob is a difficult task. More than likely if you approach ROB you will get hit and fall behind in the neighborhood of 10~30% and then he's really gonna camp and ledgecamp and frustrate you even more. When players get frustrated they get desperate and make mistakes. My point being is that you stand to lose less by camping. So what if the match takes all of eight minutes and ends in a draw? If you keep the same mindset for the next match then maybe ROB will approach you in the next round.

As i said before the point is that ROB has a good ground game and projectile pressure so approaching is tough. Compared to Falco who would murder you if you aircamp but walkshielding is very effective and you can apply a massive amount of shieldpressure with little fear of punishment from him. Even if you space a bair against rob he can at least ps and unish with a ftilt which is why in this particular match-up (not all match-ups) aircamping can be an effective technique.

t!MmY · Jun 18, 2010

It's pretty apparent some of you guys don't know much about this match-up.

Sir_J · Jun 18, 2010

t!MmY said:
It's pretty apparent some of you guys don't know much about this match-up.

You should know it pretty well from playing t0mmy. I assume

Match Up Export: ROB

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