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The Official Ike Video Critique Thread

Teh Brettster

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I believe any aerial is the same-- you fast fall at the beginning of the attack, before the hitbox comes out, not when the attack is over. The speed of the attack doesn't matter, so long as you do something and press down to fast fall.
Most of use probably use Dair for the comfort of having a hitbox under us, even if the opponent can't get anywhere near you up there.
 

metroid1117

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Just to throw it out there, it's best to momentum cancel when you know you'll get edgeguarded hard if you don't - momentum stalling, while it prevents you from moving very far, can get you comoboed pretty easily if you do it when your opponent is close enough to continue attacking.
 

Heartstring

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Kirk wrote a thread a long while back in which he stated that airdodging and then double jumping is best to cancel your momentum if you're being knocked out horizontally, while DAir and immediately fastfalling is best to cancel your momentum if you're being knocked out vertically; BAir actually wasn't advised, but I think there isn't a big difference between BAir and DAir, if I recall correctly.
oh right thanks, and so my DI gets one small step better!
 

Iofsauron

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Just to throw it out there, it's best to momentum cancel when you know you'll get edgeguarded hard if you don't - momentum stalling, while it prevents you from moving very far, can get you comoboed pretty easily if you do it when your opponent is close enough to continue attacking.

This is been mentioned probably in the posts but what is Ikes momentum cancel when he gets knocked back? is it his fair?
 

metroid1117

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This is been mentioned probably in the posts but what is Ikes momentum cancel when he gets knocked back? is it his fair?
If you're afraid of a ceiling kill, you should perform either a BAir or DAir and then fastfall as quickly as possible. If you're afraid of a kill off the side, then airdodge and jump as soon as possible.
 

Nysyarc

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If this talk of momentum canceling continues, I'm guessing it should be moved to Ashunera's.
Yes, it should, cause I get excited when I see new posts in this thread and then you guys make me depressed with your off-topic non-video-containing messages. Moar vids for critique and less discussions plox.

:034:
 

Heartstring

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Yes, it should, cause I get excited when I see new posts in this thread and then you guys make me depressed with your off-topic non-video-containing messages. Moar vids for critique and less discussions plox.

:034:
haha ok, ill try and get a video of my horriible ike on youtube, i cant do it myself, so when i get to a smashfest ill force them into submitting myself on there for once, chances are itll be ike dittos though, which i hate with a passion
 

Iofsauron

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If you're afraid of a ceiling kill, you should perform either a BAir or DAir and then fastfall as quickly as possible. If you're afraid of a kill off the side, then airdodge and jump as soon as possible.
Okay thanks a ton. Using regular b move off the side didnt make much sense xD too much lag to even recover back on the stage
 

Yung Mei

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do you guys critique ike mirrors? just making sure, because i wanted to get a match critiqued....and its an ike mirror ;.;
 

Nysyarc

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do you guys critique ike mirrors? just making sure, because i wanted to get a match critiqued....and its an ike mirror ;.;
You mean an Ike ditto? Like you're both playing as Ike in the match? Yah I can critique that. If you mean something entirely different you'll have to explain.

:034:
 

Yung Mei

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You mean an Ike ditto? Like you're both playing as Ike in the match? Yah I can critique that. If you mean something entirely different you'll have to explain.

:034:
yeah thats what i meant :D

ill try getting the replay uploaded so i can get it critiqued. thanks in advance :)
 

Shinde425

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You mean an Ike ditto? Like you're both playing as Ike in the match? Yah I can critique that. If you mean something entirely different you'll have to explain.

:034:
Mirror is the same thing as ditto, fyi
 

Akashi

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Spot-dodge to dsmash is easily punished, so don't do it as much. Start canceling your jab on the 1st hit, not 2nd (where he kicks), because it can lead into better follow-ups (bair, utilt, grab, etc), and can confuse the opponent's DI. Don't throw out too many useless nairs unless you start catching onto their rolling patterns or where they fall. Spacing fairs on Wolf is r*pe because it's one of the few attacks Ike can throw out against him that isn't punishable (unless it's PS)
 

Nysyarc

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I'll critique this one against the Wario because it's the most recent (your first one is from like a year ago, lol), but next time try to use a video of a Match-up you have trouble with, or a match that you lost. Two-stocking your opponents is fine but if the player you're facing is that much worse than you, it doesn't leave much room for us to critique.

0:06 - You shouldn't be fast-falling a Bair if you short-hop it. If you short-hop and Bair right away using the c-stick, it will auto-cancel if you just let Ike fall at the regular speed. This is especially important in a MU like Wario where he has excellent aerial acceleration and control and could punish you for excess landing lag.
0:20 - Look for every opportunity to punish with Jabs. You shielded his entire Dair there so I don't know why you rolled away instead of Jabbing him.

There wasn't much else to critique really, since you beat him so badly. Nice use of Nairs for spacing, although you had a habit of using Nairs while he was away from you and then throwing out an Fair whenever he came close. It's safer to just stick with Nairs against a character like Wario. Try not to roll as much too.


Nice match on both your parts. I'll be critiquing your Ike Akashi, just so there's no confusion.

0:44 - Ftilt isn't a good option for spacing or general damage-dealing, and should be used only as a KO move at high percents. Especially in a situation like that, the other Ike's Nair/Fair/Dair... basically whatever they want will outrange and/or punish an Ftilt.
0:58 - Obviously edge-hogging Aether can be effective, but it has to be timed perfectly. In the ditto, it's better to wait and use a Bair/Fair to hit your opponent out of their Aether and try to bait a QD recovery, then edge-hog that (much easier).
1:37 - Lol, obviously that was avoidable either by AD or possibly by DIing up when you were hit (hard to tell at such a high percent), but that was nice by Meneil, I wasn't expecting it.
1:58 - I take it that was an attempt at an IDA. There are a lot of things I don't like about Ike's IDA, one is that obviously if you mess up like that, his Dtilt is very punishable. Another is that Ike's DA isn't good enough to be used as an effective approach anyways, it's slow, predictable, and easy to punish. People stopped being surprised by it's range a long time ago unfortunately.
2:27 - I lol'd.
3:11 - Obviously a Dair wasn't your best option there; maybe it wasn't what you were going for, but Dair is almost never good to use when coming from above because of it's landing lag. Stick to Nairs if you can.
3:26 - When Aetherplanking, make sure you always grab the ledge again (unless you've already done so four times in a row), and it's much safer to use Aether towards the stage. If you face away from the stage, the other Ike can pull off something dumb like Dtilt out of your Aether really easily if they're ready for it.
3:40 - When another Ike is Jabbing you repeatedly like that, you need to SDI away and reset your spacing quickly. It's almost impossible to SDI behind an Ike who is repeatedly using Jab 1.

Overall a well played match, just try not to use DA so much. The ditto is tricky because Nair isn't as good as it is in most other match-ups, since it's so heavily outranged by Fair. Jabs and edge-guarding are the keys to the ditto. Also, try and use Ike's upward KO moves more often like Usmash, Utilt and Uair (especially on Halberd which has a low ceiling). Usmash isn't as punishable as a lot of people think and can actually bait an approach which you can punish with Jabs. Uair is just an awesome move for punishing air dodges and covering platforms.


:034:
 

Akashi

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Thanks for the critique. To clarify a few things:

-Anytime I messed up my ledge-guard on Aether was by accident. Last match in GFs will make you nervous xD but I understand why you pointed that out.

-I DA approached a lot because I was trying to avoid fighting Mene at all times. She and I play all the time (we're bf and gf, should be obvious we know each other's playstyle), and overall she's the better Ike... so I was trying to just hit and run.

-I can't SDI, I use tilt stick :p.

-The one time I landed on stage with aether and got smacked by fair was by accident. Once again, I get pretty jittery on the last match XD.

I'm not critiquing your critiques, just pointing out a few things you couldn't of known about. Not your fault, which is why I'm clarifying. Everything else is very sound, so thanks :).
 

Nysyarc

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Thanks for the critique. To clarify a few things:

-I DA approached a lot because I was trying to avoid fighting Mene at all times. She and I play all the time (we're bf and gf, should be obvious we know each other's playstyle), and overall she's the better Ike... so I was trying to just hit and run.

-I can't SDI, I use tilt stick :p.
Hmm, well for the DA thing, it's not even a good 'hit and run' approach, cause it has so many ending frames. I mean it definitely has it's uses though, like a follow up to Bthrow and sometimes Fthrow and also to punish people rolling or teching away from you. But for avoiding close conflict with another Ike, retreating Fairs are your best bet, which you did use quite well at a few points throughout the match.

Lol, I use tilt stick as well cause IMO it's just way better for Ike, and although Mr. Doom can attest to the insanity of good c-stick SDI, obviously it's still possible to SDI pretty well with QCDI using the control stick.

Also, glad I could help, Ike vs Ike in LT GF makes me happy, lol.


It says you're the 'Green Ike' but neither is Green so I'll assume you're the standard colored Ike (white shirt). If you're the all Red Ike, which I doubt cause that pretty much has to be RedX, let me know and I'll change the critique.

0:10 - You got into a bit of a predictable pattern there of just Nair -> Jab; also, make sure you're not using the third jab if the first two miss. Try and end it before the kick for minimal chance of being punished.
0:15 - Lolwut? Either you got mixed up as to which Ike you were for a second or else Aether is now the hip way to edge-guard Aether.
0:39 - Try not to use DA so much, two in a matter of a few seconds is way too much. Follow up your other attacks with aerials instead at low percents.
0:50 - If you want to come back to the stage quickly like that, try using an Nair instead. Fair in a situation like that is easy to punish.
1:55 - Your rolling was obviously getting predictable there; I actually expected it as a viewer. Be very careful about when you choose to roll with Ike. Very careful; never do it on impulse if you can help it.
2:05 - You definitely could have survived that Bair by holding the control stick up and momentum canceling. If you've just done something like Aether on-stage and know you'll get punished, you should be preparing to DI first and foremost.
2:23 - Seems like 90% of critiques I do have an Ike using Dair into the ground at least once. Please no more using Dair into the ground. Please. Use an Nair, use an Fair, use nothing and grab the ledge instead so you can't be punished. Just don't use Dair.

Anyways, pretty good match overall, you certainly started off really well but RedX started reading your habits a lot near the end, especially on that last stock where you kept jumping right into his attacks. You also DI'd his last Ftilt pretty badly resulting in him edge-hogging your Aether. After whiffing an attack like that, hold up on the control stick so if you're sent horizontally you can still recover. Until very high percents you really only have to worry about horizontal KOs because of gimping, so just hold the control stick up.

Basically, just identify your habits (rolling, being over-aggressive returning to the stage, dash attack as a follow-up) and try to eliminate them one at a time. Otherwise your Ike is fine, good use of Jabs and aerials for the most part.


:034:
 

comboking

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The name is wrong because that was not my upload. I was player one which you found out. I forgot what is the best way to momentum cancel with Ike?
 

Nysyarc

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The name is wrong because that was not my upload. I was player one which you found out. I forgot what is the best way to momentum cancel with Ike?
For horizontal momentum cancel you want to air dodge and then double jump at the earliest possible moment, obviously only if you think you'll die otherwise, better to save your jump if you can.

For vertical momentum you want to fast-fall by using a quick aerial, preferably a manually inputted Dair because it will automatically fast-fall. You can also tap the control stick down while c-sticking basically any other aerial, although in order to be safest against characters who have good ways of finishing you off quickly up high like Fox, Falco, Pikachu, or in doubles matches, you should stick to Dair and Bair since they end the fastest in the air.

San did some testing and found that apparently Nair combined with fast-falling actually allowed him to live longest for vertical momentum cancel; at least I think it was Nair. Kirk's original study found that Dair and Bair were best, so I dunno, it's up to you really.


:034:
 

Iofsauron

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For horizontal momentum cancel you want to air dodge and then double jump at the earliest possible moment, obviously only if you think you'll die otherwise, better to save your jump if you can.

For vertical momentum you want to fast-fall by using a quick aerial, preferably a manually inputted Dair because it will automatically fast-fall. You can also tap the control stick down while c-sticking basically any other aerial, although in order to be safest against characters who have good ways of finishing you off quickly up high like Fox, Falco, Pikachu, or in doubles matches, you should stick to Dair and Bair since they end the fastest in the air.

San did some testing and found that apparently Nair combined with fast-falling actually allowed him to live longest for vertical momentum cancel; at least I think it was Nair. Kirk's original study found that Dair and Bair were best, so I dunno, it's up to you really.


:034:
That's interesting. I should check that out
 

Heartstring

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i ttend to jsut dair for the sake of simplicity, but i also accidentally do it for horizontal too which isnt good. its hard to force myself to use different di's depending on trajectory, i got tips of the uk's best player on di, so ill use that i spose
he isn't actually the best at gameplay, but i wold honestly say his di is better than ally's honestly, survivial of ikes fsmash at 120% on yoshis deserves recognition
 

Shinydarkrai94

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This critique of Comboking's fight is mainly just to add on to Nysyarc's critique. This is my critique of his first fight.

0:39 No matter how I look at it, it seems like you could have spiked him with Dtilt. I may be wrong but it appears that way.
0:48 Like Nysyarc said, an Nair would've worked better then the Fair. Also, you probably could've pulled the Fair off if you had gotten closer. Air dodge and counter work well in these situations also.
0:53 I think you could have made it if you hadn't air dodged.
1:56 Not a huge detail, but since it was a vertical hit, Dair or Nair + Fast fall probably would've gotten you down faster. If you had more damage when you were hit, you may have lost a life, whereas you wouldn't have with Dair.
2:05 The only time that I've seen Aether used well on ground was to spike a enemy trying to recover and then following up with attacks. This is generally not a good move to use for purposes other then recovering.
2:15 It's pretty obvious that RedX likes to Fair his opponents trying to recover, so you should counter him if you fight him again.
2:29 RedX is a very skilled player, you probably should have tried to recover with QD here.

General notes:
Your biggest problem is your predictability. I noticed that you always counter when Ike is recovering and when you throw, you always do a back throw followed up by an attack. You might want to try a counter off stage (I've seen this work well), a short hop and Dair (if you think your opponent is going to roll) or an eruption occasionally for countering your opponents recovery. As for grabs, try down throw, short hop and Nair or perhaps back throw and then try grabbing them again (this works well when the opponent shields; also works well when your opponent is slow). Finally, you may want to throw a short hop followed by a Dair. Yes this has more lag then the other aerials, but it is unexpected and I've seen it work in situations where it wouldn't work with the other aerials. I don't recommend using this often but I disagree with Nysyarc. Dair has a different hit range and it should be used occasionally to avoid predictability.
Besides being slightly predictable and messing up with DI and momentum control, you are doing very well. To become better, you may want to practice some of the techniques the RedX uses, like an Air Dodge recovery from the ledge and shielding, then turning around instantly afterwords and starting a jab combo. Overall though, you have a great Ike.

This is my critique of Comboking's second fight.

0:09 I'm not exactly sure why you turned around and started a jab combo. RedX was behind you lol.
0:50 Jab combo in the wrong direction again =/. Work on turning that around after a shield. It takes some practice.
0:56 In this world, it's best not to use the aether much. Try to find platforms which you can double jump to. Also, you may have been able to survive with momentum control and Dair.
1:02 You probably should have jumped right away so you didn't get hit by the opponent's aether.
1:04 Another jab combo when the opponent isn't there =/.
1:06 Ftilt doesn't work after back throw at high damage.
1:37 I also have a tendency to do this sometimes, but try not to do Ftilts that definitely wont hit.
1:55 7 attempted grabs in a row?? I think he started predicting this. Try to change it up a bit.
2:06 Probably you should have jumped and countered or jumped and Faired.
2:26 I don't blame you for this mistake. That world is confusing. You will stop making mistakes like this through practice.
2:41 DA into shield is not a good thing :S. Try to stop doing DA as much, its very punishable.
3:02 Another world mistake. Try doing a few more matches in the rainbow course and see if you can learn this world better.

General notes:
I don't want to make a false prediction, nor do I want to read into the match too much, but it seems like you were slightly discouraged or annoyed while doing this match. I obviously don't know this for sure lol but you had a large amount of predictable moves and you made more mistakes in this fight then the previous one. Before starting each match, especially ones after you just lost, remember to calm down and concentrate. My motto is that you almost always learn more when you lose compared to when you win.
I noticed that you have a lot of the same problems from the previous match. You are a bit predictable. Continue to train yourself to use different moves and try to predict your opponent. You should also try learning mindgames. I noticed that RedX had a cool mindgame; he hit you once then dodged around you, hit you again and grabbed you. These sorts of tricks can be very useful. They are the next step in mastering Ike. I hope this has been helpful :).
 

Heartstring

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First post is a critique? You got some balls.
true dat, but then again he could have just lurked for the past however long, or even jsut be a sockpuppet account, but anyway.

its an interesting way of edgeguarding against an ike, using counter, but i think most recoveries are too unpredictable for that to work, just sayin'
 

san.

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San did some testing and found that apparently Nair combined with fast-falling actually allowed him to live longest for vertical momentum cancel; at least I think it was Nair. Kirk's original study found that Dair and Bair were best, so I dunno, it's up to you really.


tl;dr: Momentum cancel any aerial you want.. Just not with dair



When I tried to test momentum canceling (DIing behind snakes uptilt and momentum canceling from 130-145% on FD),

Dair was the worst, letting me only survive until early 130 percents.

All of Ike's other aerials let me survive until 145% (You could probably survive higher with some good SDI). Bair is just the easiest to do, but any other aerial will do, so you can mash cstick any direction except down as long as you DI properly and fastfall.

I don't think what I found out is too far-fetched, because I was seeing immediate results in my survivability in most of my matches.


Nair was just iffy because it's a tiny bit harder to input than the others, but still survived around the same.
 

TX7Killian

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Oct 15, 2009
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I tested with Uair and Bair... Bair was the better one, dunno why. In Dittos the Uair let me survive ike's usmash till around ~130-140 %. Bair and QD let me survive a little bit longer. I could make a vid of that... If anyone would care :D
 

Reg15

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Wow the whole time I was using the A button when I was trying to momentum cancel. I'll have to Start using the cstick for momentum canceling.
 

Shinydarkrai94

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true dat, but then again he could have just lurked for the past however long, or even jsut be a sockpuppet account, but anyway.

its an interesting way of edgeguarding against an ike, using counter, but i think most recoveries are too unpredictable for that to work, just sayin'
Lol actually I only found out about this site recently but still wanted to try critique :). And I agree, it doesn't work with most characters but it does work very well against ike.

On a side note, San, do you think you could add me sometime? My fc is 4854 9882 0652 and I really wanted to fight your Ike :). I'm a relatively new competitive Ike player so I was wondering if you could give me some pointers.
 

Heartstring

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okay guys, the first ever videos of my ike went on youtube a few hours ago, so...do your worst

im going to enter my johns now, firstly it was early morning (about 2am) when this happened, and i am an early person, so i was pretty tired, also i can see a ton of flaws myself, i jsut play so much more different when im against humans, i start rolling everywhere TT_TT

also the guy im playing is the best lucario in the UK, so its understandable when i say i got raked son

game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnPlNP5y-fk

game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1EcYYwgkwE

game 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNPqq4J1LPg

game4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysyMGwPlkQY

game 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uHFIrHMrSs

also, pretty much every f-smash in there was a failed dash attack or a failed b-air/f-air, yes i am that bad a pressing buttons XP
 

Nysyarc

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*Cracks knuckles* Time to critique a critique. That's right, I'm a senior critic so I haz the power. I don't mind a new critic but I do mind a new critic who gives misleading information.

0:39 No matter how I look at it, it seems like you could have spiked him with Dtilt. I may be wrong but it appears that way.
He couldn't have because RedX saw it coming and airdodged, what he could have done is punish the airdodge with a walk-off Dair. If he had tried a Dtilt, it would have missed and he would have eaten RedX's Aether for a ton of damage.

0:48 Like Nysyarc said, an Nair would've worked better then the Fair. Also, you probably could've pulled the Fair off if you had gotten closer. Air dodge and counter work well in these situations also.
No no no, Counter is never to be used when returning to the stage like that. I have KOd so many decent Marths and Ikes SO early with a fully charged Fsmash because I managed to bait them into using a Counter in a situation like that. Counter is rarely ever to be used, because Ike's has very bad start-up time and is very punishable.

2:05 The only time that I've seen Aether used well on ground was to spike a enemy trying to recover and then following up with attacks. This is generally not a good move to use for purposes other then recovering.
I do mildly disagree here. It certainly should not be thrown out randomly, but if you can read your opponent and use it so that you land on a platform or between platforms in a way that is difficult to punish, there isn't too much risk and a fairly considerable reward. CK was justified in using it there, because he read RedX's double jump over him, although he used it too late. It works best after jabs at low percents if you know your opponent will try to double jump over you.

2:29 RedX is a very skilled player, you probably should have tried to recover with QD here.
When critiquing a situation like that, it's better to identify what led to the situation in the first place. If he had done a QD right away, RedX could have punished it with a retreating Usmash or even an Fsmash, and if he went for the ledge with it, it would be even easier to edge-hog than Aether. It was CK's (lack of) DI on the Ftilt that led to him being in that disadvantaged position, so that's what you should focus on in a critique.

Finally, you may want to throw a short hop followed by a Dair. Yes this has more lag then the other aerials, but it is unexpected and I've seen it work in situations where it wouldn't work with the other aerials. I don't recommend using this often but I disagree with Nysyarc. Dair has a different hit range and it should be used occasionally to avoid predictability.
Never, ever, ever tell someone to use a move with tons of ending lag in a situation where they have other options. CK has enough experience that he doesn't need to be told what moves to use, but a less experienced player may take that seriously. There are much better options for punishing rolls than a short-hop Dair. Any Ike main can attest to that.

Example: Usmash if they have enough % for a KO. It covers more range around you, has more shield push and if you hit with the back end of the hitbox, it takes less time to end. Jabs if they are still low percent or anytime really. Jabs come out fast so all you have to do is read the roll, turn and sometimes even wait and then Jab once they've rolled. Bair is also excellent for punishing rolls behind you because of it's speed. You don't need to use different moves to be unpredictable. If you can read your opponent's roll, they aren't going to be concerned about what move you punished it with, just the fact that you did punish it.


This is my critique of Comboking's second fight.
Just as a general critiquing tip, I usually will only critique one match if a person gives multiple clips. I'll watch both beforehand and determine which one shows more of the player's true style of play. In this case, the second match is on RC and CK suicides twice, and tries to pull off some stage shenanigans that could have gotten himself KOd early, so I decided to only critique the first, more serious match.

You certainly can critique both or all of a person's matches, but it is time consuming and often there is one match that shows significantly more about a player than the others.


0:09 I'm not exactly sure why you turned around and started a jab combo. RedX was behind you lol.
Try to avoid these kinds of comments in a critique. It isn't really constructive in any way to simply point out a mistake (that may very well have been by accident) and not give any tips on how to improve. In this case it would have been fairly obvious to CK even at the time it happened that it was a mistake, he knows how to Jab in the right direction, lol.

0:56 In this world, it's best not to use the aether much. Try to find platforms which you can double jump to. Also, you may have been able to survive with momentum control and Dair.
You're right about the Aethering, and trying to avoid situations where you're forced to use it. However, try to be a bit more specific when telling someone how to DI; give specific examples based on the situation they had. In this case, CK probably would have survived if he held up on the control stick upon being hit, and then momentum canceled accordingly (AD and double jump if he was sent more sideways, Bair/any aerial and fast-fall if sent upwards).

1:02 You probably should have jumped right away so you didn't get hit by the opponent's aether.
I'm not sure what you mean there, try not to be too vague, and try to identify the biggest issue in a situation. In this case, he should have known that using Aether when above someone on RC is punishable, since he just got KO'd because of it. So with a bit of stage knowledge, he could have realized the pendulum was about to appear, waited in the halo and jumped out to it when it did, forcing RedX to approach him thus giving him an advantage. You don't want to be above the other Ike on RC. Don't hesitate to give tons of details in your critique, even for a small thing; the clearer the better.

1:04 Another jab combo when the opponent isn't there =/.
This is something that I did a lot early on in my critiques, but that I've stopped doing recently. If you bring up a mistake someone made and tell them how to fix it, you don't need to bring it up again if it happens later in the match. You can say something like "you seem to do this a lot" or "this looks like a habit of yours" the first time, but try not to bring anything up more than once; it is repetitive and likely frustrating for the player reading your critique when you're beating a dead horse like that.

1:37 I also have a tendency to do this sometimes, but try not to do Ftilts that definitely wont hit.
A comment like this doesn't really help much, because he was trying to maintain his spacing at the time, not get a guaranteed hit. A better way to put it would be "Ftilt is not a good move to use for spacing at low percents, because it has limited vertical range and is more punishable than an aerial attack." If you notice the player using a move improperly, point out exactly why and give other practical uses for the move. Ftilt is a great KO move at higher percents on a read for example.

1:55 7 attempted grabs in a row?? I think he started predicting this. Try to change it up a bit.
This is the shenanigans part I was getting at. He's obviously trying to keep RedX up there and grab him once the stage moves so that he can do any throw to KO him easily. As long as you aren't hit by something, you can go as high as you want off the top blast zone of any stage and all you'll do is incur 1% damage each second.

2:06 Probably you should have jumped and countered or jumped and Faired.
Instead of what? At 2:06 he is recovering with a QD. Be very specific, point out what move they used wrong and why, and then give examples of what they can do instead.

3:02 Another world mistake. Try doing a few more matches in the rainbow course and see if you can learn this world better.
Don't tell someone they've done something wrong on a stage if you can't explain how to do it better. On RC, you want to be below or beside your opponent but away from areas where the stage disappears. This match shows what happens when you are above the other player (when he got Bair'd for the first KO and ate several Aethers), and what happens when you take risks by fighting near the very bottom (the Dair SD at the end). You do have to be mindful of the stage's transitions, but just telling them that without examples doesn't help.

I don't want to make a false prediction, nor do I want to read into the match too much, but it seems like you were slightly discouraged or annoyed while doing this match. I obviously don't know this for sure lol but you had a large amount of predictable moves and you made more mistakes in this fight then the previous one. Before starting each match, especially ones after you just lost, remember to calm down and concentrate. My motto is that you almost always learn more when you lose compared to when you win.
Try not make assumptions that could insult the other player. You took that a bit too far, and I personally dislike the use of the words "calm down". Telling someone they should calm down is usually derogatory, and not very helpful. Instead, give them advice on how to relax before a match without actually dropping any accusations. Always remember that your opponent is just a human being like you, that's what I always tell myself.

A decent first critique, you used a good format (I'm guessing you got it from me, which is fine; I got it from Metroid, lol). I don't know if you actually plan on doing more critiques, but I was bored and needed something to critique so I thought why not try critiquing a critique. I've never used that word in the same sentence so many times before.

Anyways, just remember to use more detail and give specific examples. And always make sure you understand in-game situations fully before attempting to critique on them, like with the Counter, the short-hop Dair thing and the shenanigans on RC. Otherwise, keep it up if you really like doing this, it'd be nice to share the work load a bit around here.

/enormouswalloftext


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Shinydarkrai94

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 8, 2010
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Actually, I do agree with you on this; I was very vague through parts of the critique and I probably shouldn't have made that insulting prediction lol. Sorry if I offended you btw CK. Anyway, ty for the advice and I'll try to be more descriptive and helpful.
On a different topic, I think we should discuss whether the short-hop Dair technique should be used. I agree that it shouldn't be used often because of the awful landing lag. I disagree, however, with the statement that it shouldn't ever be used. I really don't think anybody should rule this out completely. Even if it is less useful than the other aerials, it still has its purpose occasionally. The reason why I brought this up is because CK seemed, in both of the matches, to have a slight problem with predictability. He may want to try to find good times to use the short-hop Dair because the enemy probably wont be expecting it as much as the other aerials.
 

Nysyarc

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okay guys, the first ever videos of my ike went on youtube a few hours ago, so...do your worst

game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnPlNP5y-fk
I chose game 1 to critique because it's on a gimmicky stage, and is longer than match 2. Matches 3 and 4 had some silly off-stage stuff resulting in easy edge-hogs and match 5 is on FD. I only critique FD matches if it's the only one someone uploads because there's no stage advice for FD.

Anyways, thanks for uploading some matches where you couldn't beat him, there's some good stuff to work with here so I'll get right to it.


0:08 - Always be aware of your opponent's attacks and how long they take to end after the hitbox, and always fish for opportunities to Jab at early percents. Right here was a perfect opportunity to turn and Jab him after that Dair but you rolled away out of hesitation instead. There are actually several times when you do this. Throwing out a Jab instead of dodging is almost always a better option as long as you don't do all three Jabs when you miss.
0:15 - Counter should only be used on a solid read, this early in a match it really doesn't serve much purpose. It's similar to Fsmash really, it should only be used when you've got them in a corner where one of their few options is to fall for it.
0:59 - That would have been the perfect time to Aetherplank, because he was close enough and just standing there spot-dodging, which Aether eats up. Look for opportunities to use Aether from the ledge for damage racking and to give yourself room to get back on the stage.
1:03 - For the best Lucario in the UK his SDI sure needs some work, lol. Nice job identifying that the combat walk would work there and keeping it going.
1:07 - Be very careful with Fairs, always be aware that your opponent can roll behind you (and Lucarios often will). This is why Nair is better against characters like Lucario because if you had not jumped so far forwards and used an Nair instead, you likely would have hit him after that roll with the back end of Nair or at least had less landing lag to turn around and Jab.
1:17 - It's pretty obvious you were expecting him to roll here, which is good but it's better to try and bait something like that. He won't roll behind you if you don't give him reason to first. Unfortunately this means that it's very hard to punish a character with a good roll like Lucario. Try taking a step towards him then quickly turning to Jab; even an empty short-hop in his direction may be enough to bait the roll and then pivot Jab when you land.
1:23 - Lol, there's that Dair into the ground again. If you use the Attack c-stick, fast-fall and Nair instead for much less landing lag and a much safer hitbox that surrounds you instead of only covering directly below you. Fair or an airdodge followed by Jabs when you land are also safer than Dair.
2:03 - He's obviously starting to read your aggressive style here, because he's gotten you with Double Team twice and racked up plenty of damage. If your opponent ever gets you with a move like Counter or is obviously racking damage quickly it's time to back off a bit and play more defensively until you can identify what it is he's reading. In this case you've been throwing out attacks at the earliest moment possible a lot instead of waiting to see what he does, so he's taking advantage of your zealotry.
2:09 - In a situation of close proximity like that at such high percent, it would be better to slide an Usmash away from him so that the back end of it hits either him or his shield. If it hits him, he gets KOd, if it hits his shield, he will likely rush in to punish only to meet your Jabs after Usmash's quick ending time. If he dodges it entirely, it was worth a shot rather than trying for a grab. Ike's grab reward is low at very high percents.
2:16 - At this percent you should be looking for opportunities to KO. You had done a ledge-drop Uair before in this match, and that was the perfect time for it there after he did his upB onto the stage.
2:45 - You had the right idea there to hope for the ghost to pop up, but in order to give yourself an even better chance at it, try Counter-stalling a bit and getting as close to the lower blast zone as you can before using Aether.
3:06 - You tried this earlier in the match and you've seen him use air-dodges to return to the stage a lot, so if you had read that and continued to fall a bit before using your Dair, that would have been an early KO. Air-dodges are the easiest way to ease yourself into reading and punishing, a lot of people abuse air-dodging and they are easy to punish if caught.
3:17 - You should work on being able to quickly identify when you don't need to use Aether to recover and when you do. Right here your double jump after his Bair took you high enough to grab the ledge and since Lucario's upB is so bad, you would have had an easy edge-hog. Instead you were forced to land on the stage with Aether which could have been punished.
3:28 - Again with the air-dodging, never hesitate to charge that Usmash a little longer, because 90% of players will air-dodge as soon as they are within it's range instead of trying to get out of it's range entirely.
4:09 - You should have aimed that Dair so that you went between the stage and the ghost so that it was unpunishable, always be wary of how you land your aerials. Dair wasn't a great option in that situation anyways with the ghost there; landing on the ghost with an Nair may have been better to cover more of his option.
4:27 - Lucario's recovery is very bad and predictable; since you had the ledge grabbed, you should have gone for a ledge drop Uair or Fair to very easily cover all of his options. With you on the ledge his only option was to head straight for the stage.

In summary, your Ike certainly isn't bad but there's plenty of room for improvement. Your DI was good in most cases and I liked your use of Jab cancel after Jab 1 instead of Jab 2. Your spacing with Fair needs some work, and you should use Nair more frequently instead of other aerials. Be careful with the use of Ike's specials, they are all very situational.

Otherwise, things like reading and predicting will come to you with time. There were a few moments in there where you were prepared for him to roll but he didn't because there was nothing baiting him to. The more you're moving all the time, the more it messes with your opponent and makes them get repetitive. When you see top players empty-jumping and dashing around, it's not for show, but to try and bait the opponent into one of their habits like rolling or approaching with a bad move that can be punished.


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Nysyarc

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Actually, I do agree with you on this; I was very vague through parts of the critique and I probably shouldn't have made that insulting prediction lol. Sorry if I offended you btw CK. Anyway, ty for the advice and I'll try to be more descriptive and helpful.
On a different topic, I think we should discuss whether the short-hop Dair technique should be used. I agree that it shouldn't be used often because of the awful landing lag. I disagree, however, with the statement that it shouldn't ever be used. I really don't think anybody should rule this out completely. Even if it is less useful than the other aerials, it still has its purpose occasionally. The reason why I brought this up is because CK seemed, in both of the matches, to have a slight problem with predictability. He may want to try to find good times to use the short-hop Dair because the enemy probably wont be expecting it as much as the other aerials.
I would be very happy to debate that with you, I love debates.

First I'd like you to clarify a few things about your case though; you're saying that the short-hop Dair should be used to punish a roll when the opponent in question rolls behind or near where you are standing, correct? Are there any other potential uses of this that you wanted to bring up as well?

Now, for my case against it, I'll first provide the frame data on the different options Ike has for punishing a predicted action such a roll (big thanks to Kirk for all of this data):

Jab 1 - Hits on Frame 3 and can be interrupted by Frame 17

Usmash - Hits (behind Ike) on Frame 28 and can be interrupted by Frame 67

Retreated Nair - Hits on Frame 15 and can be interrupted on landing after 13 Frames.

Retreated Fair - Hits on Frame 18 and can be interrupted on landing after 22 Frames.

Bair - Hits on Frame 7 and will Auto-Cancel if used immediately on a short-hop.

Pivot Grab - Grabs on Frame 9 and can be interrupted by Frame 36.

Dair - Hit on Frame 16 and can be interrupted on landing after 29 Frames.

So, given that raw data, Jab comes out the fastest and has the earliest IASA (Interruptible As Soon As) frame, which makes it the best option for a last-second read that you didn't fully see coming, and is safe in case you miss or hit a shield. A retreated and short-hopped Nair comes out very quickly, and has very low landing lag, meaning you can throw up a shield or start Jabbing soon after landing.

A retreated Fair is less favorable since it takes longer to come out meaning you have to time it better on a read, it also takes longer to end, leaving you slightly more vulnerable if you got it wrong. Usmash may look like it takes awhile, but if you read the roll, the amount of time it takes to hit behind you with Usmash is perfect, and if you do catch their shield, it will push them back enough that few moves can punish you before the IASA frames arrive.

Bair comes out really quickly and will auto-cancel if used on a short hop, meaning it's even safer than Nair for a situation like this. The fact that it comes out quickly means it can also be used on an impulse read like Jab, and is easy to time for something you saw coming. Pivot Grab I just threw in there because some people do use it to punish rolls, but it's not practical for Ike.

Now for Dair. It comes out sooner than an Fair, but other than that it takes considerably longer to hit than Jab, Nair and Bair. The landing lag is unforgivable though; at 29 frames (half a second) it is the worst of any of Ike's aerials and when you consider that a short-hop takes around another 35 frames or more, a short-hopped Dair would take about the same amount of time as an Usmash to cancel out of safely.

Now I'll go into a bit more detail about real situations and the practicality of each of the best moves aside from the numbers.

Jab - Jabs are Ike's main tool for racking damage, since a single fresh Jab combo without any canceling will do 16 damage, and canceling the first Jab just once makes that 20. At low percents Jab is your best bet for punishing rolls and spot-dodges because of it's great ability to rack damage and put your opponent in positions where you can continue to read them.

Nair - Nair's hitbox lasts the longest of any of Ike's hitboxes (with the exception of Aether), meaning it will still hit someone who rolls under you even if your timing is not perfect to hit when it first starts. It is very practical to use at low percents to punish because it can be followed up easily by other moves such as Jabs, Bair or another Nair. At higher percents it becomes just a means of adding a bit of damage and popping your opponent up in the air a bit, so as good as it is for spacing, it's use as a punishing move degrades the more damage your opponent has. The only argument against this is that it remains very safe due to it's low landing lag.

Bair - Bair comes out almost as quickly as a Jab, and also happens to be an excellent KO move at high percents. It can also string into other attacks such as Jabs at low percents because of it's ability to auto-cancel, making it viable as a punishing move at any percent. Even if it does not KO your opponent at a high percent it puts them off-stage which is where you want them.

Usmash - I would argue that Usmash is Ike's best KO move, but that's just because I like it so much. It's rivaled in that department by Bair, Uair and Utilt IMO. Anyways, Usmash is very practical as a punishing move because it's hitbox behind Ike lasts for 4 frames which leaves breathing room for a timing mess-up on your part. On top of that, it can KO very well at higher percents and it's IASA frames are not bad at all for a smash, meaning you will often catch your opponents off-guard and get some free Jabs if you miss (people will often think Usmash has the same ending lag as Fsmash).

Dair - Now, the only thing I can say Dair has going for it here is that it's hitbox also lasts quite awhile like Nair. However, the second part of the hitbox which lasts for 13 frames only deals 12 damage fresh, which is less than even a stale Jab combo. It will hit the opponent up in the air but has less KO power than Usmash, and up the air isn't in your favor as much as off-stage like a Bair or Fair would do. Because of the awful landing lag and it's trajectory it cannot string into any other attacks at low percents, making Jabs, Bair and Nair all better in that respect. On top of all that, it is obviously not nearly as safe if you mess up or read your opponent wrong, and leaves you very open to be punished.

Let's assume that you hit your opponent's shield with a Dair as early as it can hit (Frame 16). Assuming that a short-hop takes 38 Frames (I think it's either 38 or 39), it would take 51 frames after you hit their shield before you can do something again. If you hit their shield with an Usmash as early as possible behind you (Frame 28), it would only be 39 frames before you can act again, making Usmash significantly safer than Dair upon hitting the opponent's shield or missing.

The argument of being 'unpredictable' holds no real ground because being unpredictable is not about using different moves, it's about using your best moves in a way that your opponent cannot see coming. Ike has enough good moves in his arsenal that he does not need to resort to on-stage Dairs to avoid getting predictable. Besides, in the scenario we're discussing, the opponent is getting read and punished, so it doesn't matter if we use a predictable move, because they can't punish us if we're currently punishing them.

Oh my god I've been typing so much. Fingers must rest.

Edit: Sorry for the double post.


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