Yeah I think UI v Darkrain got recorded. Chu didn't want to record vs Darkrain. There are a decent num. of matches recorded.
http://www.youtube.com/user/dphanna
They will be here.
http://www.youtube.com/user/dphanna
They will be here.
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah. I noticed Phanna was on an uploading spree. Thanks.
PB&J
Smash Hero
uber ice *****
A couple questions.
Why does nana sometimes jump off and die whenever I WD to ledgehog? how can this be stopped?
What exactly is the max limit of a "semi-wobble" and why do people not add them after their blizzards more?
We need to allign and go on a crusade to get wobbling unbanned. I think the time is right.
Why does nana sometimes jump off and die whenever I WD to ledgehog? how can this be stopped?
What exactly is the max limit of a "semi-wobble" and why do people not add them after their blizzards more?
We need to allign and go on a crusade to get wobbling unbanned. I think the time is right.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Not sure. It seems kind of random.
Desynch. Have Nana do something laggy like blizzard, then wavedash edgehog with Popo.
mastermoo420
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 726
I heard the IC v. Falcon match-up metagame has improved after God-knows-how-many long years. True or untrue? And if true, what's changed?
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I don't think there is any way to distinguish between a semi-wobble and a wobble; people probably don't do it because they don't want to accidentally break the rules.
When you wd to the edge, fastfall to the ledge and it shouldn't happen as much. It's hard to predict though, and when it happens just use your get-up and let Nana grab the ledge, or drop from the ledge and do an up+b cancel. I just wd fastfall edgehog at the very last second so even if Nana does jump off my opponent will die and then I can save her.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I haven't had Nana accidentally SD in a long time. I do think fastfalling immediately after going off the stage helps, but other factors might be at work. I'd guess that your horizontal speed when you slide off-stage might be a factor.
Wobbling isn't well-defined, so any ban on it is inherently very nebulous. IIRC, Wobbles once told me that he would do a couple iterations of headbutt -> ftilt between grabs in CGs, but I'd be afraid to try that in tourney, although honestly you could probably get away with it.
Wobbling isn't well-defined, so any ban on it is inherently very nebulous. IIRC, Wobbles once told me that he would do a couple iterations of headbutt -> ftilt between grabs in CGs, but I'd be afraid to try that in tourney, although honestly you could probably get away with it.
mastermoo420
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 726
It seems reasonable; that sounds a lot like the d-throw > Nana d-air CG that's often used except with a few headbutts put it.
Fly, you are the only one of us in the back room. I think we should push to get wobbling unbanned. I'm going to do a formal writeup and maybe you could help. Don't think its hopeless, most every top-level player thinks it should be unbanned including the top 2 Mango and Hungrybox. I feel that the opposition is almost exclusively a mid and low level player objection. We got this.
Also, I suggest we define semi-wobble as 5 tilts. I will just clarify this with every TO before the tournament until it becomes established. For now on, lets call it 5 tilts.
Also, I suggest we define semi-wobble as 5 tilts. I will just clarify this with every TO before the tournament until it becomes established. For now on, lets call it 5 tilts.
Binx
Smash Master
I remember reading that a wobble is defined as wobbling for 3 seconds, which is something like 3 iterations or 4 iterations of forward tilt, It is perfectly viable to do about two between throws, it also causes people to flub DI a lot, its something I need to practice. I really doubt anyone would call you on tilting twice because they could still technically escape from it at most percents, the percents they couldnt it would be about the same as a blizzard but more damage.
As Fly said you should just wd grab the ledge at the last second so you have time to save nana, if Nana jumps of the ledge I NEVER try to up b save her because she will often ledge hog and kill me, I'd rather get on to the stage to let her live unless she is obviously too low then its safe to help her with an up b.
As Fly said you should just wd grab the ledge at the last second so you have time to save nana, if Nana jumps of the ledge I NEVER try to up b save her because she will often ledge hog and kill me, I'd rather get on to the stage to let her live unless she is obviously too low then its safe to help her with an up b.
Vanitas
Smash Ace
Just outta random curiosity, where would ICs be on the tier list if wobble was not banned? :O
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Probably ... right where they are now. X_X
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I think they would definitely be above Ganon. Without it ICs and Ganon are pretty close.
So if you ledge hop u-air or b-air or something you can up+b cancel as you fall back to the ledge. Also, whenever you do an up+b cancel, you can drop -> solo up+b with Popo which regenerates your invincibility really quickly, so it might be a decent edgeguarding trick if you can time it right.
I'm still not sure about shieldgrabbing Falcon, but if you react to it you can spotdodge as he would hit you. Timed correctly, it makes him act like he hit your shield but you don't go anywhere, and you can grab him after the spotdodge.
I was playing around with d-throw cg on Falcon and unfortunately it seems like you can't f-smash regrab after about 50% (the f-smash won't reach). It works for longer if he doesn't di away though, so you can use it in conjunction with d-throw reverse d-air. I remember Magus citing that d-throw works until some really high %, but after a little over 100%, you start needing to wavedash and it seems like he might be able to jump out.
Edit:
So if you ledge hop u-air or b-air or something you can up+b cancel as you fall back to the ledge. Also, whenever you do an up+b cancel, you can drop -> solo up+b with Popo which regenerates your invincibility really quickly, so it might be a decent edgeguarding trick if you can time it right.
I'm still not sure about shieldgrabbing Falcon, but if you react to it you can spotdodge as he would hit you. Timed correctly, it makes him act like he hit your shield but you don't go anywhere, and you can grab him after the spotdodge.
I was playing around with d-throw cg on Falcon and unfortunately it seems like you can't f-smash regrab after about 50% (the f-smash won't reach). It works for longer if he doesn't di away though, so you can use it in conjunction with d-throw reverse d-air. I remember Magus citing that d-throw works until some really high %, but after a little over 100%, you start needing to wavedash and it seems like he might be able to jump out.
Edit:
...
I always ask the TO how many times I can forward tilt my opponent once I have them in a grab. Having done that, I just do that many, do a CG, and then start tilting them again. Nobody ever calls me out on it because it *stops*. One person tried to, and then I politely explained to him, "***** the rule is three can't you count step off" and he stepped off because hell yeah.
And I'm also in the MBR, and there's no point in asking because 1) MBR majority agrees to leave it unbanned and 2) it's always TO's discretion. Nobody doesn't go to tournaments with it banned, including the IC players, so TOs just do it.
And I'm also in the MBR, and there's no point in asking because 1) MBR majority agrees to leave it unbanned and 2) it's always TO's discretion. Nobody doesn't go to tournaments with it banned, including the IC players, so TOs just do it.
mastermoo420
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 726
Also, bumping my previous question: how has the Falcon match-up evolved? I heard it did recently.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Wobbling for a couple iterations seems useful at low percents, since it's guaranteed damage (they can't mash out). It could also be used as a tactic to bait the opponent into mashing, when they should really be DI'ing/preparing to SDI. Might be able to get a few free chain grabs that otherwise wouldn't have worked.
Edit @ mastermoo420: Just as Falcon players have adapted to fighting Ice Climbers, so Ice Climbers players have adapted to Falcon strategies. We aren't falling for double jump retreating knees/raptor boosts/stomps like we used to. Don't really know how I can explain it better than that.
Edit @ mastermoo420: Just as Falcon players have adapted to fighting Ice Climbers, so Ice Climbers players have adapted to Falcon strategies. We aren't falling for double jump retreating knees/raptor boosts/stomps like we used to. Don't really know how I can explain it better than that.
mastermoo420
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 726
Dang it; that's just a matter of getting used to Falcon. D:<
Also, I see your location is UMCP? ;o That's close to me. Very close. Heck, my dad works there, lol.
Also, I see your location is UMCP? ;o That's close to me. Very close. Heck, my dad works there, lol.
Binx
Smash Master
What do you guys do against shield pressure from knees, I usually try and get them to mess up on an l cancel and grab them, but often times that doesn't work, I throw off timing by dodging, changing shield angles or by running and shielding so they hit it earlier than expected.
I play with a Falcon who usually won't miss them even during those situations though and we can only take like 3 knees before its really not safe to shield. Rolling is always risky and I don't like wavedashing towards falcon or giving up ground, its tough to beat.
I play with a Falcon who usually won't miss them even during those situations though and we can only take like 3 knees before its really not safe to shield. Rolling is always risky and I don't like wavedashing towards falcon or giving up ground, its tough to beat.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Wow! Do you live in Maryland? I'm always looking for people who are enthusiastic about getting better at Melee.
The key is to not let Falcon onto your shield. He is RARELY going to do something to get shieldgrabbed. What you need to be doing is seeing how he sets up those knees, and hitting him as the knee starts to come out. It has a 16 frame startup or something. Basically every move that the ICs has is good for stuffing his approaches and catching him out of stuff. You need to get him first without approaching, somehow. =D
A tip for the insta-downsmash wobble finish. Once you think you are getting close (id say 150 ish) start saying in your head "1, 2, 1, 2" and note which one (either 1 or 2) is representing the headbutt. Let's say it is 1. So then you just get ready, and next time you say 1 in your head you hit the c-stick down instead of pressing A. Works for me, but I had the same problem that Nintendude did.
I also have a new(?) super fast ledgehog, I find it strictly better than Belay>OoS nana hog but it is really hard. Just do what would be a long WD to the ledge with your back facing it, but start near to the edge. Now there is a tiny window where if you roll toward the ledge, popo will roll, but nana will not have gotten that info, and will have already grabbed the ledge....yeah lol.
Wobbles, post more. I still want that new writeup on Marth.
I also got 5 tilt Semi-wobbles legalized for ROM3 btw for anyone who is going. 5 tilts in a grab. Fresh thats like 34 damage.
A tip for the insta-downsmash wobble finish. Once you think you are getting close (id say 150 ish) start saying in your head "1, 2, 1, 2" and note which one (either 1 or 2) is representing the headbutt. Let's say it is 1. So then you just get ready, and next time you say 1 in your head you hit the c-stick down instead of pressing A. Works for me, but I had the same problem that Nintendude did.
I also have a new(?) super fast ledgehog, I find it strictly better than Belay>OoS nana hog but it is really hard. Just do what would be a long WD to the ledge with your back facing it, but start near to the edge. Now there is a tiny window where if you roll toward the ledge, popo will roll, but nana will not have gotten that info, and will have already grabbed the ledge....yeah lol.
Wobbles, post more. I still want that new writeup on Marth.
I also got 5 tilt Semi-wobbles legalized for ROM3 btw for anyone who is going. 5 tilts in a grab. Fresh thats like 34 damage.
Binx: remember that because of Falcon's ground speed, he usually has to aim his knee pretty far in advance of actually connecting it. He has to judge your movement, his own, and put them together, and given that ICs wavedash gives them lots of bursty movement it's actually tough for Falcon.
For me, the single most important part of playing ICs has become their movement. Your job is never to wavedash or dash the distance they expect, and never at a time they expect. Stutter your movement by braking with your shield, then wavedashing out of it at weird times. Don't be afraid to sit in your shield doing nothing in the middle of the level; it confuses people. It says to them, "I am defensive right now," even though your wavedash quickly makes you offensive. It lets you roll away if you don't like the other guy's spacing or options too, which means de-sync'ed blizzard which, for a moment, walls off Falcon's (and most other characters') approach.
The benefits of rolling away a lot are pretty vast. As long as the other guy isn't too close, it's completely safe. Because it is punishable under certain circumstances, particularly for characters with good ground speed, it taunts them into saying, "you should have seen this coming, come and get me." Then you don't roll, you n-air out of shield, or you wavedash forward into a smash, or you bait them into running straight at you and grab blindly.
If you want to beat characters with better spacing, speed, and control, you have to get them to forget for a moment where you *are* by conditioning them into thinking they know where you *will be.* Those kind of assumptions absolutely murder one's attention and reflexes--it's a very large part of my game and it's a big reason why so many of my KOs are poorly DI'ed smashes at low percent.
For me, the single most important part of playing ICs has become their movement. Your job is never to wavedash or dash the distance they expect, and never at a time they expect. Stutter your movement by braking with your shield, then wavedashing out of it at weird times. Don't be afraid to sit in your shield doing nothing in the middle of the level; it confuses people. It says to them, "I am defensive right now," even though your wavedash quickly makes you offensive. It lets you roll away if you don't like the other guy's spacing or options too, which means de-sync'ed blizzard which, for a moment, walls off Falcon's (and most other characters') approach.
The benefits of rolling away a lot are pretty vast. As long as the other guy isn't too close, it's completely safe. Because it is punishable under certain circumstances, particularly for characters with good ground speed, it taunts them into saying, "you should have seen this coming, come and get me." Then you don't roll, you n-air out of shield, or you wavedash forward into a smash, or you bait them into running straight at you and grab blindly.
If you want to beat characters with better spacing, speed, and control, you have to get them to forget for a moment where you *are* by conditioning them into thinking they know where you *will be.* Those kind of assumptions absolutely murder one's attention and reflexes--it's a very large part of my game and it's a big reason why so many of my KOs are poorly DI'ed smashes at low percent.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
aaaah that wobbles wisdom.
i love it.
i love it.
Binx
Smash Master
Thanks guys, I do already do stuff like that in neutral positions I guess what I was asking is how you deal with it when he's already right on top of your shield, rolling is f*ing scary vs falcon, I guess I just need to keep doing what I am doing and not be predicted.
Also really good stuff vs forward Rob. I swear to you the day before I saw that video I was thinking about trying short hop backwards wavelands into fairs/dash attacks glad so see it can work pretty well, haven't had a ton of luck catching my friends off those cause they are pretty patient vs me, but I can see how it would really wreck someone who is being too aggressive.
Also really good stuff vs forward Rob. I swear to you the day before I saw that video I was thinking about trying short hop backwards wavelands into fairs/dash attacks glad so see it can work pretty well, haven't had a ton of luck catching my friends off those cause they are pretty patient vs me, but I can see how it would really wreck someone who is being too aggressive.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Wobbles has amazing execution.
Binx- Then try to speed up, I usually did think that "defensive play" is the way to go since it wins matches, but an offensive kind of pressure is what makes ICs a dangerous character, lots of wierd movements, and their WD should be used more and effective. But the most important thing, is that theres 2 of them, allowing for grabs from nowere (nanagrabs) into reactionbased combos which can be VERY powerful.
Everytime Nana(randomly) jabs an opponent from nowhere I try extra hard taking that stock or getting a grab, pays of more than not =) But this is probably most based on the most recent friendlies against armadas space animals. Peach cant be rushed :/
Everytime Nana(randomly) jabs an opponent from nowhere I try extra hard taking that stock or getting a grab, pays of more than not =) But this is probably most based on the most recent friendlies against armadas space animals. Peach cant be rushed :/
PB&J
Smash Hero
nair approach to jab is really good against falcon and spaced bairs..its what i do alot and try to throw in random dash attacks to throw him off
We need to get alot better at shieldgrabbing with nana whenever someone grabs us. Uberice is amazing at it.
As I said eariler, Nana will actually turn around in shield to shieldgrab someone. I just need to figure out what throws she can shieldgrab and which ones she cant.
If we could grab Fox out of Uthrow Uair attempts...oohhhh....or Falcon out of Dthrow>Knee. That would help me so much,
As I said eariler, Nana will actually turn around in shield to shieldgrab someone. I just need to figure out what throws she can shieldgrab and which ones she cant.
If we could grab Fox out of Uthrow Uair attempts...oohhhh....or Falcon out of Dthrow>Knee. That would help me so much,
_KuyaSombreo_
Smash Ace
does kirby have any advantage in the IC matchup?
Binx
Smash Master
You can't grab Falcon if he dthrows fast enough because he has invincibility frames during the throw and after the throw Nana is usually in shield stun, sometimes you can get it, but its kind of hard, I go for it whenever its there, I actually brought this idea up a yeah and a half ago or so vs Marth.
Vs Fox you can grab him after uthrows but I dont think its possible to get him from a fthrow or a dthrow. Unless he stands still to long after the throw of course.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I hope Magus comes to correct me or something, but this is what I've gathered so far:
Neutral tech is 26 frames, vulnerable on frame 21.
Tech rolls are 40 frames, vulnerable on frame 21.
After d-throw f-air, provided they don't DI away, you can dash with Popo, crouch -> d-smash on approximately frame 14, and the d-smash will cover both the tech in place/no tech (back hitbox will come out on ~21) and one tech roll (the front hitbox ends on ~26). If they DI away, this can cover only the no tech/tech in place option.
Other things I'm looking into:
After d-throw f-air, dash forward with Popo and d-smash with Nana only to cover the tech in place. The problem is that f-air has 20 frames of landing lag, and Nana probably killed some time in the air, so her d-smash will come out later than frame 26.
You can potentially fix this by l-canceling the f-air, wavedashing out of shield with Popo, and d-smashing with Nana during the wavedash. This would cover the tech in place option, but I'm not sure about the tech away, and it would be much more difficult to do. I have some other ideas, but I feel like they're even slower/less humanly possible.
Neutral tech is 26 frames, vulnerable on frame 21.
Tech rolls are 40 frames, vulnerable on frame 21.
After d-throw f-air, provided they don't DI away, you can dash with Popo, crouch -> d-smash on approximately frame 14, and the d-smash will cover both the tech in place/no tech (back hitbox will come out on ~21) and one tech roll (the front hitbox ends on ~26). If they DI away, this can cover only the no tech/tech in place option.
Other things I'm looking into:
After d-throw f-air, dash forward with Popo and d-smash with Nana only to cover the tech in place. The problem is that f-air has 20 frames of landing lag, and Nana probably killed some time in the air, so her d-smash will come out later than frame 26.
You can potentially fix this by l-canceling the f-air, wavedashing out of shield with Popo, and d-smashing with Nana during the wavedash. This would cover the tech in place option, but I'm not sure about the tech away, and it would be much more difficult to do. I have some other ideas, but I feel like they're even slower/less humanly possible.
Guaranteed tech chases only (seem to really) work with Sheik and Falcon lol.
When do we do the dsmash in relation to them hitting the ground? How long do we wait?
This is good info, what would be better is this: After a Sopo Dthrow, is there any way to cover 3 tech options with Dsmash (or anything?)
When do we do the dsmash in relation to them hitting the ground? How long do we wait?
This is good info, what would be better is this: After a Sopo Dthrow, is there any way to cover 3 tech options with Dsmash (or anything?)
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Run as they hit the ground, and d-smash as soon as you can crouch out of run.
If Fox DIs away (if he doesn't you don't need to let him tech), I think it would work if you positioned yourself so that d-smash covers his tech roll range. You would probably need to wd d-smash, I'd have to test it out though.
p.s. does anyone have AR?
If Fox DIs away (if he doesn't you don't need to let him tech), I think it would work if you positioned yourself so that d-smash covers his tech roll range. You would probably need to wd d-smash, I'd have to test it out though.
p.s. does anyone have AR?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
His D-tilt can be sort of annoying because it pushes them away. And he can jump around on platforms and Bair them if they try to chase him stupidly but otherwise no. He still gets ***** because he sucks at splitting them and killing them and ICs have more range.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
And Kirby is the worst character in the game.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Unlike Jiggs, Kirby is grabable.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
So... any word on if it's possible to SDI -> shield-grab raptor boost with an undiminished shield?