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Social General Ice Climber Chat

P

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Yeah, Magus shoud GIF that.

And he should see if we can sheild SDI > shield grab stomps or knees (with reasonable human capabilities, probably just one SDI imput other than ASDI)
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
It would be hard to say anything about knees and stomps since they can hit our shields in a variety of slightly different ways, whereas raptor boost always hits in essentially the same way.

I think I'll PM him later today.
 
Kyu Puff

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
You should ask him about the techchasing thing too, because my summons don't seem to be working (or he just doesn't care).

I don't think there is any guaranteed way to punish knee because, aside from pushing your shield away, it has less l-cancel lag then it does net shield stun. You might be able to pseudo-punish it if they try to follow it up with another aerial, and you might be able to shield grab d-air with good shield DI.
 
P

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Nair is good vs Falcon, yes. Also good vs Marth for some reason.

Yeah, Fly please ask him if he could work up some techchase coverage options vs fastfallers (like he did for Ganon) too! Both regrab and dsmash if applicable.

YES!
 
Wobbles

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I spent a few hours playing Darkrain the other day and I'm of the opinion that against Falcon you should, 95% of the time, be facing backwards. Good Falcons don't get shieldgrabbed so that's not really an issue, your b-air out of shield works 100% of the time against his forward+b, and since your D-smash starts behind you that's faster as well.

I'm not going to be happy until ICs that aren't me start jumping off the level to edgeguard more. Seriously, you guys just wait on the level, it's really boring :)

<3
 
P

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
You can uair just the same from facing backwards. I see very few negatives of facing backwards now that I think about it.

How did you do against him Wobbles?

When do you suggest we jump off the level and with what? Give some good examples and I will start doing it. Vs Falcon, I see no reason to do anything other than ledgehog>standup>chaingrab if I have nana, or just standup bair/dsmash with just popo. Basically edgeguard like he is Sheik.
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
@Wobbles: Maybe. Nair is better when facing forward and you can't effectively use blizzard while facing backwards, but it's not exactly hard to turn around should I want to do those, so I'll consider turning my back to him more often.

I like going off-stage to edgeguard some characters, but not most. It's true that if such edgeguards work, the opponent dies, and it's not hard to get them to work generally, but if the opponent does avoid it, you're in a terrible position. Most of the time, I'd rather go with an edgeguard that may not have as high a success rate, but doesn't have any gratuitous risk involved. Then again, if I have a stock lead and am at a high percentage or only have Popo, I might as well go for broke.
 
Wobbles

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
PEEF: Well, not necessarily vs. Falcon. Just in general. I like leaping off the level with f-airs and n-airs at people, double jumping into the next aerial (usually n-air) and then forward+b'ing back. Works best against Falco since you can get him from almost any position, and gimping him when he goes low is a good way to force him to forward+b more.

For Falcon I like getting out there and beating him up if he's anywhere above the edge, particularly on non-FD levels. Just leap out and n-air, force him farther out and then do like you said with holding the edge and waiting.

As for Darkrain: I dunno. Even-ish I guess? We had some good back and forth, but I don't CG as hardcore in friendlies, I go for silly stuff. So while that restricted my punishment a bit, it also probably made him play a bit looser. Hard to say.
 
P

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Well that's good. Dark has been having trouble with ICs lately, I tried to teach him how to get out of Dthrow Dair...lol

I'll try this offstage craziness for sure.
 
P

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
OK wtf its been 5 days this is stupid.

Any new vids come out for us to watch?

I have been doing dthrow>dair>bliz>5 tilt semi-wobble for chaingrabs now, and I must say it is beyond amazing. 3 regrabs is now all you need to kill any character. This really is revolutionary, people just need to start doing it. Almost any TO in the world will allow a 5 tilt-semi wobble, and they are henceforth allowing you to get 50+ damage from every chaingrab.
 
Nintendude

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
5 tilts seems kind of extreme and I wouldn't do it out of fear of getting DQ'd. EC hosts don't mess around when it comes to wobbling.
 
Wobbles

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
For me it's usually been about 2 or 3. But I've been doing it for some time and it's definitely useful. I've always done it in place of grab->blizzard because people seem to be able to mash out right after or before the blizzard starts, but the tilts are faster and (since they're part of the infinite) are inescapable when you do it right. I'm not sure how many tilts you need to do to get more damage than a blizzard though, I'm guessing 3+.

Nintendude: Force them to clarify :) Say, "how many tilts can I do?" Then give them a number. 3 is really good because it doesn't take long, so the guy you're grabbing usually won't complain or anything.
 
P

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Yeah, it is deff not something to just DO. You have to ask. Alukars for example had no hesitation telling me that 5 tilts was fine at ROM, and he is one of the most anti-wobbling people I know.

First ask if they will discuss wobbling being legal with you. If they say no, then say "Just to clarify, I can still do the standard 5-tilt semi-wobble right?" They will say yes.

Nobody in the whole world of worlds can argue that a 5 tilt, 30-40% semi-wobble breaks the game. That is absolutely crazy mode.
 
Kyu Puff

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
Chu's one of the only IC players I don't feel that way about. :p

I think most of the inefficiency is just rust. I was surprised he beat Tope, but he was definitely playing better in his sets against Chillin.
 
Wobbles

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
My main problem is that ICs have a gigantic repertoire of useful tricks that he simply doesn't apply. He gets Fox in a grab at 100% with Popo's back to the edge and could easily KO him with a u-throw->reverse f-smash. He gets a grab at the edge but since he doesn't use the handoff the guy gets away. He'll settle for an isolated d-smash when he could get a grab that earns him a stock. Stuff like that.

But then he wins anyhow.
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
The only thing that seems inefficient about Chu's play to me is his grab game. He's a lot more efficient than other ICs in the sense that he never throws out moves when he has no reason to.
 
S

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
http://www.justin.tv/ajp_anton/b/265611168

Few tournamentmatches in a row of me playing against Helios (and after, ajp, where I didnt use ICs though :/), currently trying the opposite from what I for some reason believed was the way to go, now I´m trying to speed up and get better at confusing my opponent by FAST(gotta speed up more, and make less technical mistakes as everyone though) movement and actions.

Last match against Helios has something interesting use with uthrow(got his jump with the combo too) =)
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
It's kind of sad to me that Chu is by far the best IC at getting openings but also clearly has the worst punishment game. The exception would be things that revolve around SoPo. I think he might be the best at the SoPo D-throw CG vs Sheik but in terms of maximizing use out of Nana, he really doesn't do much.

If by some chance he simply sat down for a few weeks or whatever and got really consistent with the Handoff and other important grab techs, traps, and tricks, he'd probably get exponentially better simply because he procures the most grabs by a significant amount. And then he'd be doing things with them. Which is terrifying. I doubt he will though. Solo practice can be tedious and he's still the best with them despite the new school advancements.
 
S

smakis

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
747
i have thought that for so long, chu learning all the technical **** wobbles discovered, he would **** beyond compare. In a set vs mango chu would had won the set if he could handoff, got mango in a grab at the edge at low %, and i even think it was the last stock (and jiggs is hilariously easy to handoff), though killing puff on dreamland is a *****.
 
P

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I talked to chu at CEO a couple weeks ago and grilled him about learning good stuff.

When I asked him why he didn't hand-off he said that it was too hard and laughed. But his mentality is probably "who is this yung bad IC player telling me how to play ICs. I invented this character, and I still place better than everyone else"

But he could be so much better even if he had MY new school grab ability. That's all I have. Its sad to see he is probably the most natural at just spacing and being good, but he is too old school to want to learn the new stuff. =[

I did refer him to the IC boards, and I said that there are vast resources for learning the handoff including Wobbles basic info thread, and my detailed frame data and Metronome practice thread. I think that should be enough for him, and anyone else who cares to learn it. Just think how awesome it would be.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
It should be noted that Chu performed better when Wobbling was banned.

I think that even though he would get better, the condition is that he played exactly the same, just with more complicated, lethal punishes. Which isn't easy. The power of an instant-death grab makes the temptation very high to go for grab at all times, whenever possible, and even when it's not a good idea. I'm not sure that would be an issue, but having such a dangerous weapon can adversely affect your decision-making.

And missing a grab (or grabbing at an inopportune moment) can kill Nana all by itself.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I don't disagree with you. If Chu had your punishment and his combat skills, I think he'd kill virtually everyone in existence except maybe the top 5 or so players. I'm not even sure if 5 is the right number -- I wonder if it should be smaller.

But alas. C'est la vie.
 
Nintendude

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
I've always felt the same way about Chu. He's only been that good because he's the smartest player. People have told me that they like my ICs a lot better than Chu's because "Chu is so boring."

No disrespect to Chu though, he's still a legend.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
What do people think of D-throw Uair regrab at low percent on FFers instead of D-throw Dair? Is it escapable? If you could do it from 0-30 or something and it was immune to SDI nonsense it would be good for making sure grabs at 0 get at least 50%.

You have to jump slightly forward with the Uair.
 
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