TheManaLord
Smash Hero
shadowball pressure is a myth, get out of here with that
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MBR Official Rule Set
- Thread starter Skler
- Start date
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
LOL . But big Blue being better than FD, ****s just unreal.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
the only stages that should be realistically allowed are as follows:
fd
it'll equalize gameplay so matchups are more defined and the game is taken more seriously. **** got it right
fd
it'll equalize gameplay so matchups are more defined and the game is taken more seriously. **** got it right
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
taken more seriously by whom?
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
other communities
when players see some whack as stage **** going on it really emphasizes the **** view they have of our game
when players see some whack as stage **** going on it really emphasizes the **** view they have of our game
Solid Jake
The Arcanum
I've always wanted to run a FD only tournament just because. But i do feel Counter picking adds strategy to the gameplay making it more appealing, to me at least.
Jonas
Smash Champion
FD does not equalize gameplay as it heavily favors chaingrabbers and projectile campers. A counterpick system with a good stage list is what equalizes the gameplay.
I don't think banning every stage but FD will make other communities take us more seriously. As far as I know most fighting game communities view us as ban-happy scrubs, and they don't even take Melee seriously in the first place.
I don't think banning every stage but FD will make other communities take us more seriously. As far as I know most fighting game communities view us as ban-happy scrubs, and they don't even take Melee seriously in the first place.
john!
Smash Hero
Who cares about them though? We know Melee *****, they don't know ****.
Also I think that Battlefield and DL might be more balanced than FD.
Also I think that Battlefield and DL might be more balanced than FD.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
hey mana. yougonna go have yourself a cry because the 100 people on the planet that play tekken seriously dont like/understand your game?
Jonas
Smash Champion
Right, we shouldn't worry too much about what other people think, although it's a pity Melee isn't more popular in competitive gaming circles.
pockyD
Smash Legend
why should we strive to make ourselves a lesser version of 'other fighting games' instead of celebrating what's made melee so unique and great for the last 8 years?
i don't feel we need their approval for anything
i don't feel we need their approval for anything
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
jonas you don't understand what equalizing gameplay means
i know stages are fun and awesome and all, but when sets are determined on counterpicks and character changes it kind of takes some of the trueskill out of it. and when you use the argument it adds more variables so it takes more skill, see items, see other hazardous stages that are legal, etc. there are lots of things we can do to make it one way or the other, but traditional gameplay makes the best competitive environment. halo mlg smash mlg etc
i know stages are fun and awesome and all, but when sets are determined on counterpicks and character changes it kind of takes some of the trueskill out of it. and when you use the argument it adds more variables so it takes more skill, see items, see other hazardous stages that are legal, etc. there are lots of things we can do to make it one way or the other, but traditional gameplay makes the best competitive environment. halo mlg smash mlg etc
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
smash in mlg has a pretty liberal stage list...
just sayin.
just sayin.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
when i say smash i mean melee
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
brawl doesn't count as smash, kids.
and I think when sheiks gimp me it takes away the trueskill of the victory. I'm better than them, but they still always win cause they gay me with edgeguarding. I think we should ban hitting someone after they double jump off stage because it's cheap and skillless
I guess what I'm saying is... wtf about platforms or events on a timer has anything to do with taking away from skill? who are you to judge what counts as true skill? talking about things in terms of "trueskill" is guaranteed to be a stupid argument.
I still think the idea of "counterpicks" that is, stages that are fair enough sometimes (when you're picking after a loss), but not all the time (during random or stage striking), is inherently stupid, but I think the solution simply is that you need to have only 5 legal stages (the standard stage strike list) at all points, no bans, or 9 legal stages (this legal list) at all points with either 1 or 2 bans for counterpicks. but to completely remove stage diversity would lose a lot of players. hell, I wouldn't go to a FD only tourney because:
a) being chaingrabbed is boring as balls
b) combos without platforms are boring as balls
Jonas
Smash Champion
I'm not saying that more variables make the game take "more skill". I'm saying that some characters perform better on some stages, and they should be allowed to utilize their advantages in competition. If it takes more skill for a Ganondorf to beat a Fox on FD, why not let him counterpick a stage where the characters are on more equal terms?
I'm not sure what you mean by traditional gameplay. Smash is not a traditional fighting game, and the gameplay will always be very different from other games, no matter what stage you pick.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
when you play any other competitive fighter, there is no stage, you play the same every time. characters have defined matchups and abilities because of this.
if you want a different experience each time, more stages is the way to go. but by and large competitive environments are usually kept static.
edit @ mogwai, trueskill is a throwaway term that really doesn't mean anything. equal gameplay leads to an easier time making relateable decisions like who is better than who
if you want a different experience each time, more stages is the way to go. but by and large competitive environments are usually kept static.
edit @ mogwai, trueskill is a throwaway term that really doesn't mean anything. equal gameplay leads to an easier time making relateable decisions like who is better than who
the issue here is that the game comes with Pandora's box opened.
maybe if MvC2 had platforms, Gambit would be top tier
maybe if SF2 had a pit in the middle, Guile would be the best character in the game
since these games only come with boring, flat stages with different cheesy backgrounds though, you're not going to hear guile players *****ing about you taking away their pit stage or Gambit players complaining about their lack of platforms. (don't take these examples seriously, I'm just throwing out random characters from those games with no knowledge of how they work)
With smash though, we know how the game plays on platform stages and when you take that away from the sake of uniformity and gameplay simplicity, you're going to be looking at Falco players going, "well **** that, if you want 1 stage, it's gotta be Dreamland, not FD, Dreamland is more fair" and you're gonna be really hard pressed getting all the character communities to agree on 1 stage, regardless of which stage it is.
maybe if MvC2 had platforms, Gambit would be top tier
maybe if SF2 had a pit in the middle, Guile would be the best character in the game
since these games only come with boring, flat stages with different cheesy backgrounds though, you're not going to hear guile players *****ing about you taking away their pit stage or Gambit players complaining about their lack of platforms. (don't take these examples seriously, I'm just throwing out random characters from those games with no knowledge of how they work)
With smash though, we know how the game plays on platform stages and when you take that away from the sake of uniformity and gameplay simplicity, you're going to be looking at Falco players going, "well **** that, if you want 1 stage, it's gotta be Dreamland, not FD, Dreamland is more fair" and you're gonna be really hard pressed getting all the character communities to agree on 1 stage, regardless of which stage it is.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
It can and has been done. It's just a preference thing. Some people don't enjoy playing a party fighter like smash. Serious gamers have serious competition. It's far past due to discuss this though, since melee is a closed community at this point anyways. We don't have to attract any sort of publicity or attention. It's just obvious to note that as a trend stage lists become more restrictive for a reason.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Umm, Mogwai Gimping is not nearly as easy as it was back in the day, Falco's/Fox's have so many different ways to recover now, to the point where gimping/edgeguarding takes prediction and skill. If you're getting gimped that's an area of the game you need to start improving on. A lot of it is reading and covering options.
it was a joke for the sake of pointing out how ******** an argument based on talking about what takes more "trueskill" is. ... and a really ****ing obvious one at that... :sigh:
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
No, true skill is definitely prevalent in Melee, and a lot of players, including so called "Good" players don't see it unfortunately.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
what?
what?
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Some things do take more "true" skill than other things, Mana is right.
Jonas
Smash Champion
Why? As I said, Smash Bros is different from other games. The idea that static inviroments are more competitive comes from other games with different game designs.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Jonas you are correct Smash is different, but I feel the idea to make everything as "competitive" as possible remains the same regardless of what game.
Edit- Someone argue with me I'm bored
Edit- Someone argue with me I'm bored
Mana said that limitting stages, perhaps to just FD, puts greater emphasis on "trueskill"
this is completely stupid to me, because saying that completely takes a dump on the beautiful platform game that makes Melee so very special to me. saying that taking that away from the game encourages "trueskill" pisses me off because I think it encourages camping and boring cookie-cutter chaingrab -> death combos, which I think are much less skillful and intricate than the way the game plays out with the options provided by platforms.
go ahead, argue with me... tell me how I'm wrong about what skill is true, and what skill isn't, cause this is such a pompous and ridiculous suggestion to me.
this is completely stupid to me, because saying that completely takes a dump on the beautiful platform game that makes Melee so very special to me. saying that taking that away from the game encourages "trueskill" pisses me off because I think it encourages camping and boring cookie-cutter chaingrab -> death combos, which I think are much less skillful and intricate than the way the game plays out with the options provided by platforms.
go ahead, argue with me... tell me how I'm wrong about what skill is true, and what skill isn't, cause this is such a pompous and ridiculous suggestion to me.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Um I agree with you wtf lol
Jonas
Smash Champion
Of course, but the question is what makes the game competitive. If it's static enviroments that are the same in every match, we might as well ban all characters but Fox.
lol, fine, I'll play devil's advocate for the sake of argument.
FD is the only fair stage because it has predictable ledges, no random elements and decidedly average blast zones in all directions. In this regard, it is the only fair stage and thus, the only allowable stage if we desire to test true skill as opposed to exploiting our characters advantages on stages that carry imbalances.
^I don't agree with this argument, but I also don't think that it's any stupider than suggesting that trueskill can only be test on BF or DL or something similar. perceptions of what's skill and what's "trueskill" vs. "fakeskill" (lol) are entirely subjective and pointless to argue about and are a terrible way to go about justifying rules. Instead, the best we can do is agree that we would like to to a certain extent limit randomness, prevent stalling, and promote character diversity within the bounds of following the first 2, and use these goals for the basis of our ruleset, rather than talking in terms of what skill is.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Brah I agree with you 100%. I said there is a difference between true skill and...uhh..idk, not true skill...But if platforms were taken away that would decrease the amount of skill involved...manalord's just being a *******
pockyD
Smash Legend
now i don't know who's trolling whom
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
Mogwai what are you on about with this trueskill? When I first used the word, I used it in quotes. When you made reference to it, I said it was a throwaway term that didn't have a real meaning. You're still putting a lot of emphasis on it and it doesn't really factor into any argument at all. It's all in your head right now.
edit: the reason I used it, in quotes, was because it's a reference to a hidden ranking that all players have in online halo. It's the behind the scenes rating that gets to the core of a persons gameplay and not just the ranking / post matchmaking results.
Jesse is right, my trollpinion was just me being a *******
@jonas: great argument, smash is different. lets use items.
edit: the reason I used it, in quotes, was because it's a reference to a hidden ranking that all players have in online halo. It's the behind the scenes rating that gets to the core of a persons gameplay and not just the ranking / post matchmaking results.
Jesse is right, my trollpinion was just me being a *******
@jonas: great argument, smash is different. lets use items.
there's apparently something missing from this
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
you *******! you burn my web of lies while i weave it. but it's clearly from halo, look it up competitive noobs!
edit: *facepalm* in response to post below me
edit: *facepalm* in response to post below me
Jonas
Smash Champion
There is a reason why items are banned, and the reason is not that they cause diversity. Most of the competitive Smash community have reached the consensus that they detract from competitive play by being random and over-powered.
We don't just ban stages for being diverse. The stages that are banned have been banned because they allow unbeatable strategies to be employed by certain characters.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
why don't we all push for fps games that have no cover. just flat fd and true skill or the best shooter will always prevail. no stupid surprise factors or items to hide behind.
Jonas
Smash Champion
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
yeah platforms take no skill at all guys