Pokédex Entry: Metaknight!

Buuda, if you find people to react rather harshly to what you say, just ignore the comment.

In Shaya's case, he has probably the most PT MU experience in all of Australia from playing Toby so much. He is very, very knowledgeable about the matchup.

Bottom line: You shouldn't take much offense to Shaya's statement. If you have a problem with certain members on the boards, talk to either T-block or me, and we'll have a discussion. Turning your post on a matchup into a defense on your character and then calling out the character of the boards will only offend people, ie you effectively calling Shaya "elitist," so he calls you "naive" in the post below me.

It's a sad concept, I agree; but odds are most people on a forum won't give your words much weight if you're still just a rookie poster. The only exception to this rule is if you have good tournament results. None of us know if you have tournament results, and you haven't been on the boards very long. I understand what you're feeling--believe me. I felt very similar feelings when I initially began posting on the boards. I felt my opinions weren't regarded very highly, and frankly looking back on some of those opinons, I was downright wrong due to my inexperience at the time. But by becoming more experienced competitively, I was able to bring better discussions to the board, and I started to feel my opinions garnered more respect. And now I'm in the PT BR and was selected to co-mod the boards.

My point is this: Please give the boards a chance. I don't want these boards to ever be a place where Smashers with lower post counts or less tournament experience feel unwelcomed--and this goes out to anyone and everyone reading this.

Let's face it, gang. Our character has his limitations. And they can be pretty severe limitations. That's why Kith was nice enough to begin these MU discussion threads. If anyone feels someone's discussion is wrong, let's discuss WHY it's wrong. I promise it will make us think more about our character, and we'll only improve as a result of it. We're all here because we love playing Pokemon Trainer.

Buuda, and anyone else for that matter, if you ever want to talk to me, feel free to shoot me a private message, email me, or hit me up on AIM.

Having someone say the complete opposite of someone and they have explicitly JUST SAID they have NO IDEA ABOUT THE MATCH UP BECAUSE THEY NEVER PLAY IT, compared to people who HAVE AND DO PLAY IT QUITE A BIT is what irks me in the wrong way.

Buuda, not to sound even more elitist (but hell thats what you are painting me as; whatever) but you dont know how to play the match up, so throwing out random tips that only succeed against ignorant players and admitting to it is destroying the reason for discourse in the first place.

Information is meant to be accurate,
If you want to state what are things you can abuse against a player who doesnt know the match up (i.e. the gimmicks PT is famous for), then do so. BUT STATE SO. But it really hurts your credibility if you havent even played people who MAIN the character (or know the character and MATCH UP really well).
If you think something works you should explain why it works,
if you can explain why it works then I can give you insight, come to an agreement, ANYTHING. But if you arent aware of Meta Knights options this whole thing DOESNT WORK AT ALL.
So please, if you wish to show your information, give why, how and when those things are applicable. Talk about what meta knight can do to avoid it (unfortunately MK generally always can), what is the general result, anything.
The reply its a good mixup or dont get predictable is coming off as a gimmick only. If PT does not have a reliable means of doing something it is failing in the match up, you need to argue what PT can do thats effective, because once a character actually proves to have something effective, then the ability to mix up actually has positive results.

I am not trying to scare you away from this site by any means, I welcome new players with open arms. You should be asking questions on whether those things actually work rather than stating them as fact. Ignorance breeds ignorance.

Zigsta already covered all the nice things I would have said. His words echo my sentiments, so reread his post if you want, and forgive me if this post sounds harsher than I intend it to be, since I'll be leaving all that stuff out.

We welcome new players and love to see new names around these boards, but you need to lose the attitude. You have to realize we have very little reason to take your word over most people who frequent these boards. All I know about you is that you are somewhat successful on Wi-Fi, and you have limited offline experience. It's not about "veterans thinking they know everything" - it's that some people say one thing while you say another, but those people have results or reputation to back it up. You say one thing that some people think is inaccurate, and they correct you. I think that's reasonable, as we certainly don't want inaccurate information floating around on these boards. Until you can prove that your information is not inaccurate, it will be hard for us to take your word over anyone else's. In the case of this thread, you're saying something works, and people with more experience in the matchup are telling you it doesn't. It doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of room for subjectivity there. Why is it so hard to accept that they're probably right?

Elitist? I've used that word to describe these boards too at times, but it works. I know I learned a lot from discussing and asking questions on these boards. Hell, I still ask questions more than I answer them. You cannot just come here and expect us to treat you with the same respect as regulars of this board. That respect is earned.

you're guys posts are too long

**** the haters budda, you are too **** styling to have any of these no fashion sense haters running in your crew.

Well, I invited the MK boards over here, but apparently they're a bunch of douchebags (give or take a few lol), so I'm going to be writing up a summary over the next couple of days. Post any last minute info on the match-up you guys think is important.

Suggestions will be heeded.
Magik is kuul.
On another note, this is a bit off-topic, but weren't people gonna bump the Ivy and Zard threads? Because frankly, Ivysaur is (mostly, IMO) garbage to begin with, and I never play him, so I should start doing that better, lol. We need to revive those, because I'm thinking that despite my strong dislike for Ivy, I also think that there's a lot of potential to be had there. Well, more than I've uncovered or seen, at least. XD Sooooo anyone who knows Ivy really well, or has questions, post on there, because I'mma try to find it and bump it. Probably the Zard thread, too.

Sorryz about double-post. Needed to quote. Is noob on SB and doesn't know how do gud.

Kith said:

Well, I invited the MK boards over here, but apparently they're a bunch of douchebags (give or take a few lol), so I'm going to be writing up a summary over the next couple of days. Post any last minute info on the match-up you guys think is important.

Click to expand...

^This. Yes.

Feel free to bump those threads if there's something particular to the character you'd like to discuss. You can find the links to those two threads here.

Also Buuda, the edit button is located to the left of the quote button at the bottom of your post. Use it instead of double posting. If you have any questions on how to use it, shoot me a PM.

Zigsta said:

Feel free to bump those threads if there's something particular to the character you'd like to discuss. You can find the links to those two threads here.

Also Buuda, the edit button is located to the left of the quote button at the bottom of your post. Use it instead of double posting. If you have any questions on how to use it, shoot me a PM.

Click to expand...

I know the edit button is there, I use it. But how do you edit in a quote?

Buuda said:

I know the edit button is there, I use it. But how do you edit in a quote?

Click to expand...

If you hit the edit button, you can edit the quote however you'd like.

Thanks.

Okay, so I have a lot of trouble with Meta F-tilting the crap out of me and shutting down my approaches as Squirtle, and if not that, then F-air or similar GTFO moves. Any suggestions? I mean, I don't know if I'm trying to fight MetaKnight too aggressively or what.

Ftilt comes out really fast, but its third hit has a pretty good bit of cooldown. You can punish him there.

If you're getting ftilted constantly, though, you're probably being too aggressive and/or not mixing it up enough.

Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking. I've been considering about mixing in more jab and jab-cancel shenanigans as Squirtle for this matchup.

Mks ftilt is harsh.
Squirtles aerial mobility + fast fall can hit MK whilst avoiding the first two hits of ftilt, but generally not the second.

One of the better mix ups when they start avoiding the above is to mix in weaving outside of his range to get MK to whiff that third hit (including crossing over). Now the third option is just jump fast fall into shield; which when you are mixing in all 3 of the above at maximum proficiency, you are increasing the odds that the MK wont pick the right one and you get your punish.

How Pokemon Trainer plays against Meta Knight

- For starters, you want to start with Charizard
- Per stock, use Squirtle/Ivysaur 1 stock and give 1 stock to Charizard (use Ivysaur very sparingly)
- All pokemon (especially Charizard) will be fatigued the entire match, so keep that in mind

Squirtle
- Squirtle is not gonna beat MK straight up, the key with squirtle is to spam jabs to deal as much damage as possible. MK is one of the few characters that outright outmatch Squirtle in the air (MK's attacks being faster and longer range). Stick with jabs, and when he uses tornado or his side-b, use withdraw to attempt to get 5-7 % on him. Be careful in recovery situations, MK's D-Air beats Squirtle's Waterfall the majority of the time.

Ivysaur
- Ivysaur is virtually useless against MK. Try spamming Razor Leaf for some free damage if you are at a distance and if you have good timing with Ivysaur, use his F-Air. Stay away from using U-Smash, Bullet Seed, U-Air, D-Air, and other moves that have a lot of end lag. At high %, use Side Smash A LOT. Generally speaking, Ivysaur will hardly ever get enough hits off to be effective.

Charizard
- Charizard is the only pokemon that PT has that poses a legitimate threat. Rock Smash and N-Air are extremely effective. Rock Smash has the potential to stop Mach Tornado and Side-B. N-Air is a safe option against MK's aerials (safe as in the safest option PT has against his aerials, because nothing is "safe" against MK, and I am surprised that N-Air hasnt gotten a mention in this thread). The main threats MK have against Charizard is D-Smash, D-Air, and Shuttle Loop. Shuttle Loop decimates Charizard badly, because there is really nothing Charizard has against it. Your best bet against the Shuttle Loop is to Flamethrower, but that requires perfect timing to successfully pull that off. Unlike Squirtle and Ivysaur, Charizard's Recovery (Fly) cannot be stopped by MK's D-Air or by Ledge Hogging, which is a huge bonus.

Nothing is guarunteed against MK, I use this everytime against a MK player, and nearly everytime it puts me in a position to win.

We almost ready to move on, fellas?

I asked some of my MK buds to post here...but they didn't.

Oh, Meta Knight...

Squirtle does about as well as most high tiers, but Squirtle's ability to outmaneuver the opponent doesn't work nearly as well as it does in any other matchup. Meta Knight's fantastic run speed means that shellshifting shenanigans can get punished consistently if you're not really careful.

Your best ground moves are not as useful, because Meta Knight's F-Tilt, D-Smash, and short-hop aerials are good at stopping things like your F-Tilt. Still, F-Tilt's your best move, and you should look for opportunities to land it for a little extra damage. Remember, there's no reason not to pivot grab or F-Tilt when you're left to your own devices, so if he decides to run into it, all the better.

If he tries to D-Air from a 45-degree angle, punish him with a shellshifted B-Air. If he messes up his spacing (which happens often if you stay in motion with repeated shellshifts), you can get a shellshifted U-Air and get a quick juggle at low percents.

If you can manage it, get Meta Knight above you. That means that your throw of choice will be U-Throw, and throwing out a D-Tilt on his shield could be helpful.

From the air, standard fare for Meta Knight should be immediate D-Airs from his many jumps. At this point, make good use of your crouch. Of course, that doesn't mean you should just hold Down the entire time, and hopefully you'll see why. Crouching here has many uses--You can avoid what was previously a well-spaced D-Air and retaliate with U-Air. If Meta Knight decides to use Mach Tornado, it can help you avoid the initial hitbox and shield it on reaction (make sure you stop holding Down to put your shield back to the center). If Meta Knight decides to airdodge to the ground, you can D-Tilt, deal some damage, and put him back in the air (any move could work in that case, but because of the lingering, large hitbox, you don't have to worry about whether or not he fastfalls or not or whether or not he falls behind you).

Try to bait him into shielding often by using obvious shellshifted B-Air, short-hop airdodging around his shield, and pretending that you're threatening. KO's will probably have to come from stray F-Airs and D-Throws, so look for opportunities. If Meta Knight is jumping from what would normally be a safe distance (sort of like Falco doing short-hop double laser), doing a forward hydroplaned U-Smash can catch him off-guard (again, like Falco's short-hop double laser).

Getting edgeguarded is troublesome. Try to remember that getting hit by Meta Knight's D-Air is usually much worse than getting hit by his U-Air, so time your fastfalls and airdodges accordingly. While recovering, your aim should be to go over Meta Knight. Keep your Water Gun charged, especially if you're on a stage like Final Destination, where Meta Knight can just run to the spot you're landing on. The pushback from Water Gun prevents shieldgrab attempts, which gives you one more option to work with.

Make sure to make use of your entire ledge game--If the ledge is a wall in itself, you can immediately wall cling, jump from that, and land a B-Air. If it's Yoshi's Island, you can do an immediate F-Air and slide past Meta Knight. The key to not getting massacred is being unpredictable.

Oh, Meta Knight...

Ivysaur...has serious problems against Meta Knight. (I bet you could've guessed that.)

On the stage, you're about as good as any other low tier character (which is to say, you don't stand much of a chance, but you -can- fight back), but the real kicker is the fact that if you get knocked off the stage against a good Meta Knight, you're going to die, whether you like it or not.

So, where does that leave you, as far as fighting Meta Knight? Perhaps surprisingly, your best tools are in the air, but they're not tools you get to use with impunity. Remember that Ivysaur does best when she plays around platforms, so do your best to run around those when you have the option.

Your D-Air -will- outrange his aerials, but if you miss, he gets to have his way with you. Sounds bad, but, realistically, he's probably going to have his way with you, regardless of what you do, so don't be afraid to throw it out when he has you above him.

If Meta Knight tries to air camp you, U-Air is pretty safe to throw out--The fact that it pushes you downward prevents a lot of retaliation, but you probably won't hit him. If he does it from a 45-degree angle to avoid U-Air, try to RAR a B-Air for a little extra damage.

If Meta Knight starts using Mach Tornado, try to shield it...If he considers you "just another low tier," he'll probably just use it again after you shield it. If you see it (or the first one) coming, hit him with a single Jab (it DOES have a use!), Dash Attack (this will often clank if it doesn't outright beat it), angle an F-Smash upward, or try to jump into a D-Air to beat it, depending on his height.

When trying to apply pressure (hah), manipulating his shield with B-Air and N-Air is your best bet. As always, you want to look threatening in order to get them to waste their shield. Mixing up your options is the key. Whether or not you fastfall the N-Air can prevent an opponent from getting his easy shieldgrab or OoS option, as well as whether you do an early or late B-Air. If his timing is thrown off, you can sometimes do another N-Air and expect it to hit when he does his late retaliation. If you expect a timely punish, Bullet Seed has invincibility frames, so make good use of them. You can do a U-Air next to Meta Knight if he expects to shieldgrab a N-Air, as the shieldstun/pushback is significantly different.

Ivysaur fares well against Meta Knight when edgeguarding (compared to the rest of the cast, anyway). While a single mistake can cost you a stock while edgeguarding, the same can be said about most of this matchup, so do your best to edgeguard him, since it's one of the best opportunities to add extra damage. B-Air and D-Air outrange him when you're beside him and above him, respectively. You can move toward the ledge and immediately D-Air to throw out a hitbox while staying on the stage. You can stage spike characters that attempt to attack you from underneath Lylat this way, and Meta Knight is no exception (you should stay slow to the ledge to try and bait it!). Try to abuse invincibility frames from your tether in order to land N-Air safely. If you can get a N-Air spike, try to follow it up with a D-Air; it probably won't spike, but it will put him far enough away where you can recover and potentially edgehog for a KO.

If you get knocked off the stage, good luck. Throw a Razor Leaf away from the stage if you have the time; B-Air is very helpful for avoiding edgeguarding tactics. D-Air works well, as I mentioned above. Other than that, just try to be smarter than him. There isn't a lot you can do...

Some small tips...If you shield a D-Smash, do an Instant Dash Attack to punish it.

If you shield a D-Tilt and expect another, Bullet Seed OoS can work against it.

If you get a grab, do a B-Throw if it gets him off the stage. Do a U-Throw if it puts him immediately above platforms (at low/mid percents). U-Throw is also a decent KO move in this matchup if you can get the grab.

There's no reason not to pivot grab if you're both on the ground and you have space. He'll probably be doing lots of Dash Attacks and running grabs, so you can unknowingly punish it that way.

wow....sorry guys been away again but i did get a chance to read all this

I reflex pretty much summed up everything I would say about helping

he didnt post about charizard though yet but Im sure its going to be amazing

I will defintely be active for the rest of this though

God **** reflex you and the constant information flow is amazing.....do a write up on zard man please I just got alot of info from all of that

Just remember that MK's Flying type, so send out Geodude and use Explosion. It out-ranges all MK's attacks and beats Mach Tornado every time.

110-0 MU, Geodude's favor.

BlazingKatakiri said:

Just remember that MK's Flying type, so send out Geodude and use Explosion. It out-ranges all MK's attacks and beats Mach Tornado every time.

110-0 MU, Geodude's favor.

Click to expand...

Doesn't beat Close Combat, which Meta Knight can outspeed you and slam Rocks with.

BlazingKatakiri said:

Just remember that MK's Flying type, so send out Geodude and use Explosion. It out-ranges all MK's attacks and beats Mach Tornado every time.

110-0 MU, Geodude's favor.

Click to expand...

But MK is flying, dark, steel, fighting

MK is zubat

Meta Knight is Poison.

Or a poison. Maybe both.

TheReflexWonder said:

Doesn't beat Close Combat, which Meta Knight can outspeed you and slam Rocks with.

Click to expand...

As long as you buy a Focus Sash from the Battle Frontier, that'll be no problem at all.

Luckily MK needs to have Galaxia equipped or else he has the attack power of a Dunsparce. So MK's never gonna have a Focus Sash of his own. Just Explode on him.

Metaknight is Koromori

http://serebii.net/blackwhite/pokemon.shtml

that's impossible. koromori has a new attack involving hearts or some such. meta knight has no heart.