Toon Link Matchup Dicussion: Falco

Falco tiem.

falco is a ******

That doesn't help.

This MU is the bane of my existence.

shadow1pj said:

falco is a ******

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I consider this a good thing...

If you want to throw projectiles at him, it's best to do it waaaay up in the air. Double jump if necessary, boomerang down, bombs away, yada yada yada. Falcos aren't to big on their reflector, but if they get overwhelmed with projectiles, they might start using it more. The hitbox on the reflector lasts forever, so even if you thing it won't reflect, it will.

Expect a SideB from him once you start approaching. You can shield it, or if you have time and space, meet him with an aerial (Zair?).

Gimp his recovery.

Falco can do lots of stuff out of a jab. Avoid it. At kill percents, be aware of potential DACUS kills.

Lylat is a pretty good stage to fight falco on with TL (Found this out recently).

Hyro's Perspective on the MU:

lol noob you said the problem in your paragraph

quote

I still camp until I am at 35%
I still camp until I am at 35%
I still camp until I am at 35%
I still camp until I am at 35%

Camp until your dead. The only thing you should be killed by is an upair (which is really hard to hit) but most commonly by a bair

Cuz you should be in the air the whole time. Full hops and double jumps. Throw downward angled boomerangs so it makes no difference if he reflects them. Don't try to powersheild approach like I always do since it gets you punished

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As far as his lasers...

So basically stay above his SHDL's so you can camp him while he has trouble camping you. that means don't be on the ground, and I wouldn't shorthop since they can reach you there.

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What MJG said. Stay in the air, stay away, camp camp camp. Toon Link's aerial momentum and jump height can make it very difficult for Falco to do much but Laser and b-air. TL's down-air is a good tool for limiting Falco's approach against you in the air, you shouldn't eat too many aerials but b-air while you're jumping around.


If you can avoid the majority of the lasers (not hard if you play right), Falco won't be able to rely on safe damage too much. It's hard for you to hit him with your bombs but when you do, it hurts a lot. We all know Falco dies low, so taking several lasers to hit him with 1 bomb is definitely worth it for the Toon Link.



Falco can reflector your projectiles, but at the right distances you can often punish it (it's a lot easier to punish than most people think, IMO, especially with z-air) or at least avoid whatever he reflects back. Falco's kill power is terrible and TL's recovery is pretty awesome, so if you play it right, he should have a hard time killing you.

Unfortunately, your setups to kill Falco aren't much better-- you do at least have better raw killing power, though.


I don't have a great deal of experience in this matchup, since I haven't played too many Toon Links (still need to play you MJG), but I did play Santi in pools at an Oh Snap tournament a year or so ago. We went 1-1 and both matches were very close. He got me once with the d-smash at 0% trick on Yoshi's, but I was able to DI and recover back to the stage from it.

My impression was that the matchup was probably 50-50 dead even or perhaps a slight advantage to Falco. This is probably somewhere between 50-50 and 60-40 Falco, most likely. I think it leans more towards the even side, but again it's not like I play TL's hardly ever

When it comes to aerial combat, TL has an easier time with it imo because of his maneuverability in the air and better overall aerial attacks. Bombs thrown up usually pressure, but don't throw a bomb directly at him. Don't be afraid to take a few laser hits. Try using your projectiles while he's shooting as this is one of your chances to use them.

Falco's recovery gives him vulnerability so he is pretty easy to gimp or even spike relatively safely with dair if you like that sort of thing. When he's recovering with illusion it's good to punish it with a down smash.

Anyone have any recent video of them playing against falco? Videos always help, I might be able to provide a couple after this weekend if there's some falco players at the tourney i'm goin to.

It seems like arrows should be used sparingly in this MU, and it really hinges on our ability to camp, gimp and punish. I really don't know much about falco (him and olimar are the two characters I really still need to read up on and figure out), so i wish i could contribute more.

However, stages I can contribute to.

Lylat and Yoshi's are both good CPs. Recovery on lylat can be trickier for the spacies, due to the small ledge, it sometimes forces them to overshoot the ledge allowing you more oppurtunities to punish.

Dsmash trick on yoshi's would work great if you can land it, plus I think the slants on the stage might mess with falco a little bit? I know falco is really boss on flat and plat stages. I dunno how he does on yoshi's, if one of the falco mains could let me know it'd be appreciated.

As far as a ban goes, I would definitely ban FD. Having any kind of platform makes air camping easier.

I would say take falco to RC, but if you do that you're probably gonna be fighting metaknight instead.

The chain grab is easy to escape at least. Once you reach like 20% or 30%, Falco won't be able to grab you.

If you reach the edge before then, just snap to the edge using Zair and he won't be able to spike you.

Jash said:

This matchup is 50-50

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zen agrees if the MU is played right its 50/50

and mage said who did you lose to lol

I agree with it being even, maybe SLIGHTLY falco's favor.

I played against a falco at a tourney earlier tonight, i lost the set, but lylat is a fun stage to take them to.

Also, the tethering the ledge sounds like a good idea when he's CGing you into the spike, but if you get hit after tethering, or whiff the ledge, it's probably gonna cost you a stock (lost a game because of it )

From all the times I've done it, it has always worked. Just push Z twice, and you immediately shift downward and grab invincibility frames.

And if you happen to miss the zair on the edge don't immediately double jump that's just asking to be foot stooled and stock gone

Ok, I'll give this another day or so for any more last minute feedback before I write up a summary.

Are we all pretty much in agreement that the MU is 50:50?

Not me.

I'm still standing by Falco's advantage on this one. Good counterpicking can change the ratio though.

So you're saying on most neutrals and some counterpicks it's falco's advantage (probably a 55-45? i dunno if i can see it being 60-40) and on some stages it can change to even?

I guess in that case, it would come down to what the ratio is on most stages. I would agree it's his advantage on FD, maybe smashville and halberd, since if we're air camping he's gonna try to kill us upward, but a lot of other stages that would be smart/common to play him on it's more even. But on battlefield, lylat, yoshi's, it's more even. PS1. I would need to see the data for how long each transformation lasts/how long it's just flat and plat. But the fact that the transformations seem to favor us would lead me to say it's even.

Definitely his advantage on pictochat. His advantage on delfino, with the exception of like one or two of the stage changes. His advantage on castle seige 2/3.

I can't see either player taking the match anywhere else.

probably goes 60-40 us on RC, unless they bust out a pocket metaknight.

Im glad you are taking the stages into consideration.

I would focus more on the pros and cons though rather than match up ratios.

High ceilings would be nice to counterpick, as well as awkward edges. High ceilings so you don't eat an up smash or and up tilt, and awkward edges so their recovery will be hindered.

I would normally go for Frigate, RC, or possibly Delfino when it comes to counterpicking, due to the ledges. I've never ever ever fought a Falco in Pictochat, so if someone wants to tell me how that is, that would be great.

High ceiling on picto is nice, but he pretty much has stage control the rest of the time, since the actual stage is similar to FD. Out of the different obstacles, I think the only ones that would make the stage go in our favor would be the random dashes, and they're only up for like 20 seconds.

I'd avoid it, but it's definitely not the worst thing if he happens to CP you there.

Never take falco to Pictochat.

Ban japes.

Matchup Summary - Falco

Best stage to fight Falco on:


Other good stages:
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Rainbow Cruise

Worst stage to fight Falco on:


Other bad stages:
Final Destination
Smashville
Battlefield


Summary:

Camp camp camp camp camp camp camp camp camp camp. camp camp neigh neigh camp. . Falco needs to be played differently than a lot of other matchups. If you just shorthop and throw your projectiles, you're going to eat lasers. Lasers and reflector make projectile camping harder than in most matchups. Fullhops, bombs and angled boomerangs will be powerful tools. Avoid throwing boomerangs right at him, as he will usually either sheild them, or if he does reflect it, the boomerang will then become your problem, the angled boomerang will reflect off at an angle so there's no way it will hit you.

Falco is very much a character dependent on stages. He has a lot of camping tools, but most of these tools are very horizontally based. If you can force him into a position where he cannot horizontally attack you, you will be successful. For the purposes of this summary, there are really two types of stages.

1. Stages mostly flat, limited platforms, non-tilting:
Includes: Final Destination, Smashville, Battlefield, Halberd, Pictochat, Pokemon Stadium 1, Parts of Castle Siege, Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes, Pokemon Stadium 2

On these stages, Falco definitely has the edge over Toon Link. He can laser camp when we are in his plane, and when we get close, he can phantasm away and continue the laser camp. The way to counter this is to remain airborne as much as possible, and avoid the space right in front of him as much as possible. Use whatever platforms/stage obstacles that are available to your advantage, and watch out for his bair if/when he tries to get you in the air. Since he will be playing very campy, as most falco players do, you need to take advantage of every punish that you can. Scoring the kill will be tough, so any gimp opportunity you get will be important. Falco's recovery isn't that great, just watch out for phantasm's spike.

2. Stages that don't fit #1, but still help toon link:
Includes: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise, Pirate Ship, Distant Planet(lol), Norfair

On these stages, I would say the matchup is even. Falco can still camp you with his normal tactics, it just takes a little bit more of a setup for him, and it is easier to escape. The tilts on the stages don't affect 2 out of our three projectiles (messes with arrows, but you shouldn't be using too many arrows against falco). Basically, just camp away. It will be tougher for him to land kills on this stage, as it will be tougher for him to rack up damage without the easy camping that he would stage on the other stages. Scoring the kill on these stages won't necessarily be easier, but the gimping will be. These stages have some janky recovery zones and with falco, it makes them be more precise. A good falco player will know how to recover, it's just a little bit harder than on stages in list 1.




All three of his smash attacks are really powerful, Dsmash and Usmash are quick attacks. Fsmash is slow, but powerful. If you let the Falco player get a good read on you, he can get you with an fsmash while you're landing from a jump.


Falco also has one of the best jabs in the game, and if you're not being careful, you can get caught up in a jab, which will then lead into a grab, which can be a chaingrab at the beginning of a stock, or a kill setup higher up.


TL;DR - Camp Camp, Choose stages wisely. Don't get grabbed, don't get jabeed. Don't be predictable.


As far as a ratio goes, although there are stages where the matchup is even, On most of the neutral/starter list, Falco has the advantage, So I'm calling it halfway between even and 55-45, ratio doesn't really matter that much anyway.

Very Slight Disadvantage 52:48

Japes is the worst stage to fight Falco on.

Match up isn't that bad, I'd say it's no worse than 60-40 in Falco's favor, it's probably closer to even. I haven't really played many toon links so I don't the match up that well.

Toon Link has a pretty easy time edge guarding Falco because of all of his projectiles, he can limit most of Falco's side b options with his boomerang and arrows. If Falco ever does an up b near a Toon Link it's a free dair spike.

Falco will most likely throw out bairs for edge guarding, but keep in mind that if a Falco reads an air dodge off stage it's a free dair spike. Falco can also dair spike TL out of his up before he can sweet spot the ledge for an early gimp.

Falco's jab is really annoying in the match up, it's his fastest move and can be easily abused.

From the way NL had explained this MU to me, he had told me to use more zair, avoid projectiles often, and to get in his face therefore being aerial agressive. after playing keitaro i didn't really try this method of playing falco like everyone is saying to on this thread lol. though i did do this at times during my match with him he still either Full hopped or DJ' quadruple lazer me xD I guess im doing something wrong but this thread should help me. next time i play keitaro in tournament i'll be sure to try to input this playstyle but if it doesn't work as planned considering he is best falco on the east coast then i will flame you all because are matches are always last hit lol. If it doesn't work out tho to be honest i'll just use IC's and make my life simpler.

I think its not so bad either.

Jash, teach me how to make it 50-50.

I played Jerm in the matchup and I think I kind of understand it now, but my Falco needs more work.

Remix: Aggro Zair doesn't work from my experience. SHDL shuts down that option along with short hop projectiles and such.

Vs Shugo, he plays too defensive and ***** me everytime I try to go aggro.

Dont ever land with zair near falco its so easy for him to grab it.

his lasers are a huge problem you have to try and find a spot that where the lasers dont effect you as much.

I dont want to go against what jash said earlier about the matchup, but i have to. Toon Link's fastest move is 6 frames. falco's is 2, and falco has more options in almosy every situation than TL. If we can camp falco hard enough, and bait his reflector we have a shot, also we can kill faster than he can, but if a falco plays smart, he wins. 65/35 Falco

There's a lot of theorycrafting for this MU imo, but how it works vs me and shugo is like:

I do a short hop aerial, he'll counter with either grab/jab/bair after shielding it.
If I camp, it gets reflected or shut down by lasers. Then again, I used to be really impatient. I know sometimes I would go into the games playing with him and have no intent on winning. Not a john or anything, but I used to really think I couldn't beat him.

Full hop bomb pulls can be punished, it's not easy but they can forsure do it. I saw Rain do this to Jerm a decent amount at Apex on the livestream.

I just simply try to out camp the falco. Play your camp game at the end of his phantasim (sp?) range, that way items that are reflected can be dodged, and you have a better chance of punishing his phantasims.

Then when at item connects, try to follow up if possible, then back to camping. Its a pretty dumb match up xD

"First kill wins" is more important than ever in this MU.


@Quivo: Shugo also knows TL really well

Yea, it's stupid. He learned it on wifi too.

I get owned by Falco D=.

Lazorz everywhere when we are apart, and those jabs at close range =.=...

And theres thats BS "silent lazor" or w/e.

Most of the times I get a stock off him is to hit him off a stage, where punishing his phantasm, or spiking his UpB isn't too hard.

can Falco chaingrab Toon Link?
Toon Link's Hyrule Shield stops his lasers?

Falco can't chain grab TL. We can jump out after like 1 or 2.

Hyrule Shield blocks lasers when we are standing. It isn't all that useful though.