• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Event - MLG Anaheim 2014 Thinking of joining the Pro Tour

Status
Not open for further replies.

Daigo Umehara

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
29
Location
Japan
I was thinking of playing Brawl competitively, and I was wondering why you guys ban stages, items, and other things that you see as "game breaking"? I mean, if the developers thought it would be game breaking, then they wouldn't have put them in there, right?
 

john!

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
8,063
Location
The Garden of Earthly Delights
lmao. smash was supposed to be a party game but it can be competitive if you take away the dumb stuff

and on the off chance that you're actually daigo, welcome to swf
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
Well you see, Diego Umehara, the developers never intended for Brawl to be played at a competitive level. Let me ask you this, then, Diego - if the developers explicitly wanted all items and stages to be allowed, then they wouldn't have put in the option to turn those items and stages off, right?

Also, didn't I see you at the arcade the other day?
 

Daigo Umehara

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
29
Location
Japan
I don't know, maybe. You'll see me at arcades a lot more since Super is being released in arcades this week.
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
5,729
Location
Las Vegas
Doesn't Daigo need a translator when he comes to EVO or something idk.

Hi Diego.


Why items suck: see EVO 2K8.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
For a native Japanese speaker, his English writing is surprisingly fluent / grammatically correct...

Then again, most of the people in my GF's Japanese Language Exchange program have VASTLY superior reading / writing skills in comparison to their speaking skills.

Either way, I'm going to give a LEGITIMATE response to the OP, in case anyone ELSE wanting to get into Smash reads it.

----------------------------------------------------

Most fighting games, especially current gen fighting games, are made by developers that have at least a fleeting knowledge that their games will be played by serious gamers in serious venues for serious cash; this leads them to carefully craft their games so that concepts espoused by the competitive gaming communities (balance, fairness, and competitiveness) are upheld in the final product.

Smash is a very different series.

The original Smash was a misshapen series of broken maneuvers that ended up "balancing" itself out in much the same way MvC2 balances itself out; everyone viable had amazing 0%-to-death combos, so it was (apparently) fair enough to work. When Melee was being developed, the designers had never intended it to be a competitive fighter in the same vein of Street Fighter, and so they took no care to craft discreet balance into the game. Melee was salvaged thanks to the physics oversight known as "wavedashing", which allowed for feints and odd approaches, ultimately increasing the depth of options for player interaction. Unfortunately, players of the Smash series fell into a problematic (and peculiar) pitfall; since Smash was never INTENDED to be a competitive fighter, players felt justified in making small "modifications" to fix perceived problems that the developers never cared to fix.

This is the beginning of the Smash community's long line of bans.

According to traditional competitive gaming values, such as the values of the Street Fighter community from which you hail, it is customary to ban NOTHING until it is shown to be, ultimately, totally gamebreaking; banning for preference is unheard of. Unfortunately, Smash's unorthodox background and development procedures gave its early players a weak sort of justification for banning things based on preference: namely, "developers would have banned this if they had ever INTENDED for Smash to be competitive". Of course, coming from a background such as yours, this is patently ridiculous; regardless of where the game CAME from or WHY it was made, competitive games follow competitive conventions, one of the most sacred of which is "ban nothing until it kills the game".

Due to having this weak justification of "developers (mis)intent", however, the Smash community has taken it in their hands to do what they perceive that Sakurai should have done himself. Previous games were, in all fairness, light on bans. Melee's biggest ban was the Item Ban (removing all items from the game), but the scope and magnitude of the ban set the stage for a larger scope of what could or could not be touched in the future.

As of now, I'm saddened to say that many of the bans in traditional competitive Brawl are uninformed and unjustified bans. Items were banned from day one without serious competitive testing, preemptively and with impunity. Stages are regularly banned with LESS THAN HALF of the total votes of all members of the Brawl Back Room, a group of elite players that forms our largest governmental body. Tactics, such as infinites, are either restricted or outright banned at many tournaments for "fairness". All of these, and more, are banned with the justification that "any serious fighting game developer would have done it already", lacking, of course, the restraint or the gravitas of a more contemporary fighting game community, such as yours.

Smash has a long history with attempting to force this game into a competitive mold it was not designed for. Different communities may have taken different roads along the way to the same goal, but out community has decided that banning (sometimes without proof, many times without a majority, always with the best of intentions) is the optimal path. As such, all items, one of each characters moves (Final Smashes), many techniques, and up to half of the total number of stages, has been banned.

I hope this mini-history has shed some light on why we, as a community, ban things.
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
2,315
Location
UCLA
well to be honest some infinites such as the D3 one on DK make a character have such a bad match up your opponent can realistically pick the character if they know how to do the infinite do to how easy it is to perform. Ban such infinites sentimentally is justified, even if it isn't through BBR rules.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
The point, though, is that we're the ONLY community that has members that think D3's infinite on DK could be "unfair". NO OTHER competitive fighting game community would EVER suggest banning something like that, even if D3 had a STANDING INFINITE on over 75% of the cast.

I mean, look at MvC2.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
That's exactly what I mean. MvC2 had TONS of moves that the Smash community would consider broken or overpowered, but did they MvC2 ban anything? No. Of course, be ready for a deluge of "this is Smash, not MvC2! We do things OUR way here!" comments. This community gets REALLY offended when you even TRY to mention other fighting games. They pride themselves on being different... and, I guess, on banning everything in sight.

Either way, I hope that wall 'o text helped shed some light for you.
 

ETWIST51294

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
8,694
Location
Captain Falcon
Melee players banned items because we played with them for 2 years and deemed them random as **** and Brawl took after Melee. I don't really agree with the Brawlers in terms of that because they're 2 different games but w.e, I don't play the **** game.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
I think the point is that if you had successful tournaments for 2 YEARS, then they obviously weren't random enough to do damage to the community. After 2 years, it became a matter of preference, because anything that was really THAT gamebreaking would have killed the game after 2 years. Either way, it's a moot point because NO ONE can possibly argue that Smash bans LESS things than other game communities. We ban MORE things by a WIDE margin, and the REASON we ban things (in any Smash game) is because we take it upon ourselves to do what we think Sakurai should have done...

...which everyone else EXCEPT us recognized is a dangerous position to take.
 

ETWIST51294

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
8,694
Location
Captain Falcon
Actually, we played on all stages too, but in the end people DIDN'T like these things making them lose matches at times, so we banned them. Noone really enjoyed them and we gave them a chance and they failed in our community.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
Read what you wrote:

"people DIDN'T like"
"Noone really enjoyed them"

That doesn't sound like competitive talk to me. You don't ban things because you don't like them. You ban things because they BREAK the game (not just damage, not just scratch the surface, I mean BREAK THE GAME INTO A MILLION PIECES). Melee banned things that didn't BREAK the game, and over 75% of Brawl bans are things that DO NOT break the game. Most of Smash bans are based on preference, which is wrong.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
Indeed. I mean, sure, we can easily demonstrate to anyone that stages like Temple or NPC (or spear pillar, or most stages with walkoffs and circles) are gamebreaking, and we can show that warioware is clearly anticompetitive (seriously, that **** is ********). But beyond that? How many bans are done either on suspicion (bull****) or flat-out preference?
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
Well, I'll at least say that Anime Matsuri '09 had an ISP 2v2 bracket that was actually pretty epic. M2K + Inui ended up taking the event with minimal resistance, and IIRC, the rest of the results were pretty uneventful, meaning nobody had any CRAZY UPSETS from the items. What's more funny is that item counterpicking was technically an option in that bracket, but no one actually USED it. I think people were confused as to the concept, even though I spent almost 10 minutes on the PA system explaining the rules.

All in all, *I* thought it was successful, and M2K and Inui liked it so much they were actually UPSET that we had to cancel the 1v1 bracket due to time constraints. Everyone I've spoken to who actually played the ruleset CORRECTLY walked away impressed. Still, though: other than that one bracket over a year ago, no TO has held a serious ISP bracket (ESPECIALLY at a national) to test it, large scale.

Imagine that: a ruleset that tries to ban as little as possible, and it's refused because it isn't conservative enough! Blasphemy! ^_-
 

ETWIST51294

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
8,694
Location
Captain Falcon
I can see how items can make brawl more fun, and I can also see how items can make melee less fun.

I would actually lke to play in an item tourny one day. :D
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
Well, I'll at least say that Anime Matsuri '09 had an ISP 2v2 bracket that was actually pretty epic. M2K + Inui ended up taking the event with minimal resistance, and IIRC, the rest of the results were pretty uneventful, meaning nobody had any CRAZY UPSETS from the items. What's more funny is that item counterpicking was technically an option in that bracket, but no one actually USED it. I think people were confused as to the concept, even though I spent almost 10 minutes on the PA system explaining the rules.

All in all, *I* thought it was successful, and M2K and Inui liked it so much they were actually UPSET that we had to cancel the 1v1 bracket due to time constraints. Everyone I've spoken to who actually played the ruleset CORRECTLY walked away impressed. Still, though: other than that one bracket over a year ago, no TO has held a serious ISP bracket (ESPECIALLY at a national) to test it, large scale.

Imagine that: a ruleset that tries to ban as little as possible, and it's refused because it isn't conservative enough! Blasphemy! ^_-
LMAO. Yeah, people are too **** stupid. I almost added "coin matches? NO!" to that list, but meh...

I can see how items can make brawl more fun, and I can also see how items can make melee less fun.
...

FUN DOESN'T MATTER. GTFO
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
4,063
Location
Australia | Melb
Haha Items in Brawl, that I'd be interested in seeing.
With the addition of a few items, character would get a boost in their metagames. We've already seen characters with items of their own like ZSS, Diddy, Toon Link, Link, Peach, Snake, and even ROB(gyro) and Wario(bike pieces) have added another deeper layer to their game.

Imagine if that was extended to the rest of the cast.
Glide tossing, Jump cancelled throws, insta-throws, chains/combo with items and attacks, Z-dropping and even new kill set-ups could be achieved. Every char suddenly has new options. Could prevent planking?
MR SATURN COMBO!

Of course realistically this will never happen. It's Smash tradition! :)
 

Supreme Dirt

King of the Railway
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
7,336
This is the kind of thing you should expect on our communities, Daigo. Seemingly innocent threads turning into massive arguments between the pro-ban and anti-ban groups. Hope you can deal with that.

I tried delving into the Japanese smash communities a while back, didn't have much success. Might try that again.
 

chaosmaster1991

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
140
Location
Germany
Just because it's tradition it's not necessarily good. When items don't hurt the game, they should not be excluded from play, same with stages.
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
4,063
Location
Australia | Melb
This is the kind of thing you should expect on our communities, Daigo. Seemingly innocent threads turning into massive arguments between the pro-ban and anti-ban groups. Hope you can deal with that.
Lol very true, it's SWF after all, quite the srs biz here. You could always go to AiB :p
Just because it's tradition it's not necessarily good. When items don't hurt the game, they should not be excluded from play, same with stages.
Agreed
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
Not to mention now that items have been brought up, it's somehow going to be MY fault that they're being discussed. Every time someone brings up items, someone goes, "Hmm, interesting idea" and I turn into "the items guy trying to start a pro-items revolt in Smash". I don't know HOW many times I've introduced myself at tournaments and have had people turn up their noses and go, "Oh, you're that items guy, aren't you?"
 

-Ran

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Baton Rouge
I was thinking of playing Brawl competitively
Call me crazy, but I don't believe you're the real Daigo. If you would like to prove it, ask your friend Gamerinn to message me at RanIji on PS3. After which, I'll make sure the smash community gives you its full attention, and I'll provide you a lot of detail as to how to adjust to the game quickly.

Until then, I'm just going to assume you're a troll.
 

Black Mantis

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
5,683
Location
Writing my own road...................
Call me crazy, but I don't believe you're the real Daigo. If you would like to prove it, ask your friend Gamerinn to message me at RanIji on PS3. After which, I'll make sure the smash community gives you its full attention, and I'll provide you a lot of detail as to how to adjust to the game quickly.

Until then, I'm just going to assume you're a troll.
I don't think you're the only person doubting if he's the real Daigo or not.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
Ok, you're all missing the bigger picture.

Regardless of whether this is the real Daigo or not, we, as a community, DO IN FACT ban more things than any other competitive fighter. We can go on all day about how "this isn't SFIV", but the fact stands that we attempt to follow most of the conventions of contemporary fighters, except for the part about banning things. The question about WHY this is the case is a legitimate one, and it's one we should be able to answer cleanly and honestly.

After all, this is a defining characteristic about our community.

Regardless of whether we're being trolled or not, this is something we should be able to discuss about ourselves.
 

Djent

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,606
Location
Under The Three Spheres
This thread may be the product of a troll, but it raises an interesting point for me. I too would love to play Smash competitively (Melee and Brawl). And I too am put off by the fact that there must be one standard for competitive play.

Banning stages and items isn't necessarily wrong, because the game designer gave the players almost complete control over the non-character factors of a match. However, it is wrong to assert that a thing must be banned in order for the game to be competitively legitimate.

Why doesn't the community embrace the unique aspect of Smash Bros.; i.e., its diversity? Why must there be only one metagame standard? In a game that gives the player complete control over the rules, it's a shame to see one of the many possible rulesets asserted as superior to all others.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
This thread may be the product of a troll, but it raises an interesting point for me. I too would love to play Smash competitively (Melee and Brawl). And I too am put off by the fact that there must be one standard for competitive play.

Banning stages and items isn't necessarily wrong, because the game designer gave the players almost complete control over the non-character factors of a match. However, it is wrong to assert that a thing must be banned in order for the game to be competitively legitimate.

Why doesn't the community embrace the unique aspect of Smash Bros.; i.e., its diversity? Why must there be only one metagame standard? In a game that gives the player complete control over the rules, it's a shame to see one of the many possible rulesets asserted as superior to all others.
Because nationals exist.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom