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Falcon Mind-Meld: A Captain Falcon Matchup Thread (now on: EDGEGUARDING))

DuckPimp

Smash Ace
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Feb 7, 2010
Messages
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Location
In the Land of Amazeia...
Hullo, Falcon peeps.

After proposing the idea to Scar, I decided to start an interactive matchup thread, similar to the one used by SmashGod in the Luigi boards (and possibly others)

The idea is that the matchup thread builds over time based on the experiences of falcon mains across the boards. A character will be discussed one at a time, based on a template given.


Here 'tis

What does Captain Falcon have to watch out for when playing this character? (what makes this character gay or difficult to beat, what makes falcons lose in this matchup, etc)

What can Falcon do to get around these techniques? (i.e. not land next to peach and crouch cancel, although try to keep it to things that arent completely obvious... "LOL dont get hit")

What Falcon should do to **** in this matchup? (i.e. approach, specific edgeguards, gimps, combos (percents VERY welcome) etc)

Percents and DI info- (where percents will go, a combo list of sorts v each character)

Stages to ban/counterpick in this matchup, and why?

General Falcon mindset in this matchup? (ex, what to keep in mind as a mantra of sorts, the primary focus of what you gotta do)

Summary (a conclusion to your matchup essay)

Additional thoughts ("LOL dont get hit")

links to good videos of what to do is encouraged, as is anything that helps.

Most of us have secondaries (or TERTIARIES, if you're fancy) to play as, but assume that we are talking about ONLY Falcon. Otherwise, whats the point of having a Falcon matchup thread if everyone says "Play another character" when we're talking about someone like Sheik?

Discuss other poster's information, to let natural selection take its course.

Information will be updated to the first page of this thread, to allow for easy access.

Anyways, to start, lets begin at the tip top of the tier list. Since the luigi boards are currently discussing Fox, lets start with Marth. Makes sense.


*********************************************************************

MARTH:


What Falcon has to watch out for-
Being off the stage, being above Marth, getting grabbed, Marth's range

Marth's edgeguarding game is ridiculous. Once you're off the stage vs a good Marth, thats the stock. Getting grabbed is really bad vs Marth, because they can throw you onto a platform or do silly uthrow utilt combos, or chase you and hit you off the edge. Lastly, Marth's closecombat range is pretty commanding.

What Falcon can do to get around these techniques-
Never go off the stage when you dont need to. Dont run in and knee or nair foolishly, or you will get grabbed. If you do, di down and away. Learn to space attacks and dashdancing, so that you dont run/jump into one of Marth's tilts or fairs or smashes or what have you. When Marth has you in a combo, di away and save your jump. Make the Marth work for their combo, rather than just letting them fair > dair your *** off. When on a platform above Marth, run away. No sense trying to attack by dropping down and getting smashed or grabbed and sent back up there. Also, don't be too crazy with nairs at low/medium percents, good Marths can CC those and whup ya. You can try putting them before Marth get an aerial out, to interrupt their approach and put them on the defense. Finally, dont be repetitive. This goes for all matchups, however. People who are predictable get punished. We should know that, as Falcons.

What Falcon should do to **** in this matchup?-
Combos are always a Falcon's best friend. They are why we play Falcon. Dashdance, and wait for Marth to approach or mess up, and punish. Marths dont have projectiles. They can't laser-camp, or spam pills, or throw vegetables. It can boring, but let them make the first move, or work on your fakeout game to bait them. Punish mostly with grab combos. UThrow to uair or knee is nice, and when those magic percents come up, Grab > Knee. Crouch cancel a lot vs Marth, his aerials are weak and you can grab him after most of them. Be efficient if you want to win. Know when to be flashy, and know when to be merciless.

Percents and DI info (****need verification****)

Uthrow to knee: 70-90
Uthrow to Uair: above 30
DThrow to knee: above 90
Dropzones: ??
etc

After a throw (before knee-kill %'s)
DI in: Nair
No DI: ReGrab, Nair, Uair
DI away: Tech chase, punish jump
On ledge expecting DI in: knee

Stages to ban/counterpick in this matchup, and why?-
Ideally, Falcons want to take Marths to FD, DL64, KJ64, or (if all else fails) Stadium, and bring tha hurt. Small stages leave Falcon cramped, and often Marth can Fsmash and Utilt through the platforms, limiting Falcon's movement even more. Marth's range is pretty devastating if correctly used, or incorrectly dealt with. However, if you get put on a small stage, all is not lost. Knee kills at lower %'s, and Marths get ***** when they're on platforms and you're on the ground. The advantageous position for Falcon over Marth is when we are below them. Their Dair is laggy, and we have moves in our arsenal that bring tha aforementioned hurt. One should always choose a big stage over a small one, as dashdancing and movement is a big part of the matchup.

General Falcon mindset in this matchup?-
Wait for opportunities. Dont go off the edge. Press left and right on the control stick for a while. Mix it up. Watch Percents. Di away from combos. COOOOMBOmmmmm...

Summary-
It is pretty much an even matchup, even though Marth gays Falcon pretty bad. Being smart will let you survive and thrive, being dumb will get you off the stage and dead nearly all four stocks. It's a pretty easy decision to make.

*********************************************************************
Fox

What does Captain Falcon have to watch out for when playing this character?-
Fox has quite a few tricks up his furry sleeves to make things, at the very least, difficult for falcon. He gets edgeguarded easily, and shines can gimp like nothing else. Falcon gets grabbed and punished with utilts or uairs or upsmashes. Fox can also waveshine falcon pretty well, which can lead to significant damage or KOs at gimp percentages. Jumping around with nair is a highly effective approach against Falcon. It’s bad, y’all.

What can Falcon do to get around these techniques?-
First off is the shine. Jumping OOS is useful for when you know when you’re going to get shined, as you can be back on your feet quickly, and gtfo quickly. When getting waveshined, rolling out or jumping OOS is useful, but don’t let your rolls get predictable. As Falcons, we know what happens to predictable people in terms of punishment.
This point seems to be following a trend, but don’t go offstage needlessly. Unless youre trying to be soopa-flashy, which in that case do whatever you want, especially if you’re being recorded. Anyways, you run the risk of getting shinespiked (bad.) or bair-edge-guarded (bad.). However, when given the choice, make him bair you rather than shinespike. You have a chance of surviving a couple bairs, based on percent and DI. Shinespike… you dead.
Against nair, there are a couple of ways to deal. If you want to be soopa-angry, nair him as soon as he’s leaving the ground. Then DD away and grab him => ??? => profit. If you’re getting ***** and angry doesn’t cut it, put up that shield. You can roll out, and shieldgrab him if he keeps nairing. You can DDcamp, grab to techchase etc. Just be careful.
When getting tossed onto platforms, figure out what the fox does to proceed. Avoid the tech in place, because that is usually what they look for.

What Falcon should do to **** in this matchup?-
Techchase like a badass. Do it. Do it. Do it. It’s always good, its what Falcon does well. Throw => techchase, nair=> grab, do anything you can in that aspect. If Fox misses a tech, stomp to Knee for the dead.
Use the gentleman as a pseudo-shine. It comes out fast, its disruptive, and it combos well. Abuse it, and mix up full combo and AAgrab to remain hard to predict. It’s good for when you mess up spacing by a little, and to use after nairs to avoid shieldgrabbing and start combos of your own. When spaced effectively, nair => gentleman is extremely difficult to punish, and is great for pressure situations.
Edgeguarding: Dtilt the side-b, follow up. If the situation deems it necessary, get out there and kill him. If theyre firefox-ing, you can drop down and dj-uair, that way you rarely get burned. It’s easier to edgeguard fox when he is below the stage, as he has fewer options. Subconsciously, they may prefer to side-b to the edge rather than up-b from below the stage, so take advantage of that.

Percents and DI info-

Stages to ban/counterpick in this matchup, and why?-
Try and get your *** on DL64 or FD. Falcon is good when he can run around. Ban FoD, and Yoshi’s (or battlefield if you think you’re Scar, and go Yoshi’s).
Uair and upsmash kill you upwards. Obviously. They are two of fox’s best killing moves. Therefore, you may want to pick a stage with a high ceiling (DL64, FD). You will then want a stage to move around on, preferably with platforms to techchase/avoid lasers on.

General Falcon mindset in this matchup?-

Summary-

Additional thoughts-

*********************************************************************

Have at it.

Edit: I added "Approach" to the list of discussion topics in "what should falcon do to **** in this matchup", because it wasnt listed there before. Also 'cuz its important.
 

Alch0ol

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
71
What does Captain Falcon have to watch out for?- grabs, tippers, and being on platforms. once of the edge your probably dead so keep that in mind. Poorly spaced anything will probably be very badly punished.

What can Falcon do to get around these techniques?- mostly be patient and dashdance waiting for an opportunity. Most of your followup combos will probably come from some grab.

What Falcon should do to **** in this matchup?- grab-> whatever seems to be your best option. Uair seems really good at juggling marth and safe for just hitting him underneath platforms. As far as edguarding marth goes I'm not sure.

Stages to ban/counterpick in this matchup, and why?- Small stages like yoshis story where you can't utilize ground running speed and the tilts/ f-smash/ aerials of marth cover a majority of the stage.

General Falcon mindset in this matchup?- patient. smart. spacing everything so you don't end up getting tippered by some tilt while dashdancing slightly too close. at kill percent d-throw to knee.
 

DuckPimp

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Thanks for the first post, man.

Just to add on/give my two cents:

More than anything, I'd agree with the edge factor- Marth's edgeguard game is ridiculous. Don't go off the stage foolishly. In terms of grabs and tippers, that comes from spacing and DI. banning small stages and choosing big ones (FD, DL64, PS) is a general rule of thumb that can save your falcon. We all know falcon needs to run around, and Marth's aforementioned range is pretty devastating if correctly used, or incorrectly dealt with.

Marths with decent reaction time can wait for a Falcon to brazenly shffl and either shieldgrab or even fsmash them out of it. Marths dont have projectiles. They can't lasercamp, or spam pills, or throw vegetables. It can boring, but let them make the first move, or work on your fakeout game to bait them.
Also learn to combo the **** out of them when you get the opportunity
 

CaptainRanD0

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What falcon has to watch out for- being off the stage, getting grabbed, marth's sword.

how to avoid- dd all day, don't run in and nair. if you do get grabbed di down and away. if you're offstage it's pretty much end of stock so stay away from the edge whenever possible.

what falcon should do- dd camp your balls off. wait for marth to approach you or mess up and then punish. uhtrow to knee from 69%-95%(something like that) and dthrow knee after that. uair is great for comboing in general. don't approach whenever possible, make the marth come to you.

bans/counter picks- ban small stages like fod or yoshis, because your movement and dd camping is a huge factor in the match up. counterpick big stages like fd or dreamland.

mindset- don't rush in blindly and spam aerials you WILL get punished hard.
 

Roneblaster

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here are a couple of things to do/not do vs marth:
if you get grabbed on the edge, di away from the stage anything else will lead to a forward smash or tipper or dair.

do not approach with nair if marf is @ low/medium % a good marf will Crouch Cancel and **** you out of it.

upair is the most versatile move in this MU imo. nair is good, but upair leads to more upairs and eventually a knee, a nair wont always lead to anything.

upthrow -> knee from 70-90 i think, d-throw -> knee above 90.
 

KirbyKaze

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If you react fast you can D-throw CG Marth if he DIs away from your throw (I think). Pretty good from 0-34 or so and then you can switch to U-throw and start doing cool air combos.
 

mastermoo420

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
726
Usually the d-throw CG works on Marth only if they don't DI down and away or towards you (not sure about the latter). I heard that somewhere before :p Machdash tends to d-throw to multiple n-airs which works if they DI a certain way... U-air is also a great option, I would suppose, if they DI in a manner in which you can't hit them properly with the nair.

Machdash also tends uses stomp on Marth's recoveries and kills if they don't tech or meteor cancel. :p A stock is worth trading hits.

@Roneblaster: M2K says u-throw knee works starting at 68%, I think, to lower 100%s. d-throw knee at 125%+ That's just what I remember him saying somewhere on SWF.
 

DuckPimp

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i like all the data we're getting here. unfortunately, not all the percents are matching up. can we get some validation?

no fault of anyone, just want correct info amirite?
 

Roneblaster

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on a platform. light shield.

idk even know what to do lol. the only marfs ive played:
1 sucks
1 is better than me, and i've been high every time i've played him. soooooo lol idk.
 

SM3EsH

Smash Ace
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firstly, to bring a correction into chain grabbing marth. you will want to assume that marth is going to di down and away, obviously if he doesnt then take advantage but he will di the next dthrow so be ready for a gimic tech in place or follow up with a tech chase.

prolly one of your more important scenarios is when marth has you in a combo...when do you need to jump? well, if you dont know what time you have to jump dont try and jump out of a combo, just di away and save your jump to get back on the stage cause by that point, your already off it. haha, and of course, the moment you get back on the stage all he's going to do is combo you again, but...better to make the opponent work for their combo then just let them fair > dair and make you look like a bafoon.

as far as small stages are concerned, a marth should be just as afraid of falcon as he would marth, especially with platorms. marth is easily ***** by them just as much as falcon is of course in scenarios where you feel he's closing in on you...he's gonna expect a jump, a double jump so you can try and get outta the way...his fair easily covers that option, theres always a choice he may not expect? running straight at marth...if you have decent enough timing and knowledge to know when marth can throw a move and at what time will it benefit him the most, throw your shield, go for a power shield, if you get it, great if not you can still roll. lol primarily if you put yourself in that position to begin with your prolly gonna lose the match. that's a tough spot to get out of.

trixies are always good too. dont ever try and look like your being any kind of repetative. a good marth player can easily take advantage of a falcon that does the same old dd gimic bs. you always wanna be moving, doesnt mean you always have to be attacking though. lol, jump around try and lure marth, give him a false sense of security. let marth get too over confident in his range because you know that's what he's banking on.

um. discuss?
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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good **** smeesh

crouch cancel a lot vs marth, his aerials are weak and you can grab him after

nair is actually not too bad, but you cant just throw it out like other matchups. reneblade says it will be cc'd and to do uair instead, but anytime uair would hit they wouldnt be able to cc anyway. you can catch them before or after their aerials but while theyre still in the air with a nair occasionally, and that works wonders.

you cannot cg or nair marth if he DI's down and away, that was a myth spread by marths and other floaty character players that dont know how to DI. if they DI in, nair. if they dont DI, cg or nair. if they DI away, tech chase or punish their jump or w/e. uthrow uair works after 30 or so.

wd backwards out of shield sometimes to mess with their spacing; if theyre trying to space aerials really well on your shield you can wd back then run forward and grab them after they miss
 

DuckPimp

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ok, so we have a good amount down on this matchup. all we need is the percents, really (and for scar to comment on this thread, man)

i will probably change the topic character soon, but that does not mean that we cannot add on to the marth section.

lets keep the momentum going, bros
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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i should clarify, on the after a throw section, i specifically meant after a dthrow at low %'s

above 30, you should almost exclusively up throw uair until 70 for the uthrow knee

the only exception i use is if i grab them near the edge and expect a fearful inward DI, in which case i dthrow knee at basically every %
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Learn how to slide off the edge when Marth techchases you
Don't DI in like a noob when Marth Fthrows you by the ledge at like 130
DI away is almost always the right strategy
~_~
 

Pen_island

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I like using raptor boost against marths since it seems to go under and catch them out of a lot of aerials and stuff. Though Im a noob so Im wondering if I should be using this move as much as I do. Is a well placed raptor boost any better than just DD grabbing?
 

Roneblaster

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raptor boost is ****. but it gets you ***** as well. the less you can depend on it the better, but dont discard it from your inventory of moves.

ban YS if you're getting ***** on plats or think you will.
ban FoD for every other reason basically.
 

chaindude

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I like to raptor boost after I go for a Nair or whatever and end up landing behind them if they decide to shield it, it usually catches them off guard cuz they assume I can't really do anything from there of course this isn't something to be done every time but it works cuz they get set into a nice position for nair,uair or knee depending on %.

If I'm trapped in close quarters with the marth and the ledge falcon kick gets me out pretty safe most of the time but once again not abuse able.
 

Stratocaster

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my small contribution that no one knows:

don't di upthrow between ~40-90, he can fsmash combo you if you di away at the lower level of this, and follow you with other kinds of combos otherwise (ss uair combos better if falcon di's away then w/ no di), if you don't di at all, he will almost always utilt you (he can't regrab you without a pivot grab, or fsmash you without a pivot fsmash, and I seriously they will know to do that) anyway, when they utilt di behind them and it'll send you out of combo range

review/short version:
mid percents when grabbed and expect to be upthrown, don't di, take the utilt, di behind when he utilts, escape any further harm.
 

SM3EsH

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my small contribution that no one knows:

don't di upthrow between ~40-90, he can fsmash combo you if you di away at the lower level of this, and follow you with other kinds of combos otherwise (ss uair combos better if falcon di's away then w/ no di), if you don't di at all, he will almost always utilt you (he can't regrab you without a pivot grab, or fsmash you without a pivot fsmash, and I seriously they will know to do that) anyway, when they utilt di behind them and it'll send you out of combo range

review/short version:
mid percents when grabbed and expect to be upthrown, don't di, take the utilt, di behind when he utilts, escape any further harm.
that's neat...however, realistically it shouldn't really matter. if you don't Di from an upthrow from marth, he'll just end up throwing fall away bairs into fairs...then blah blah. You're pretty much SoL whatever you try to do. Even if you DI behind math, he'll chase you with fairs, another grab or a dash attack. IMO (yea, advice in this scenario against marth...it's made up with opinions based off of what you believe your opponents skill level is) IMO, you're better off DI'ing away and let the marth throw his fsmash or fairs, (if he throws fairs try and DI to the weak part of it so you can DI down and away the furthest) and you may find the ground or get fsmashed and get a better chance at coming back to the stage than what you would have if you just let him juggle you out to never never land.

oh yea, raptor boost behind marth...you'll get a dair to your skull >.< then prolly into grab -> upthrow, frthrow blah blah into -> blah blah or to fsmash..duh maybe even into an uair -> blah blah. pretty much anything marth needs to do to potentially end your stock in that scenario.

of course at higher percentages it's a different story and blah blah. marth has falcon 53/47
 

SM3EsH

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want to learn a trixie? if you have your opponent in a position where they are at a stand still and you're in their face..run away then back at them however, do a sticky walk, they'll shield then try and grab you assuming you did a move after running at them with great threat (of course by now your just slowly going out of their range to grab you) they grab, and you fire up a knee.

it's godly. and completely demoralizes and embaraces your opponent. scar...get at me.
 

SM3EsH

Smash Ace
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um., thanks. any opinions to fire up?

should we fire up another char discussion..or is there any other part of the falcon and marth match up folks dislike or want further clarification on?
 

DuckPimp

Smash Ace
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In the Land of Amazeia...
we'll we still need more percent data, thats always useful... but ive been thinking we should switch pretty soon here as well

lets talk about edgeguarding and then we'll move on

How to edgeguard marth:
i personally just jump off and use bair, or knee, and if its sourspotted jump to uair. anyone do anything else?
 
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