The Onion - Gathering and Storing our Frame Data!

DtJ Hilt · Sep 12, 2010

Shields come out on frame 1, for every character. To my knowledge, at least.

Also, I'm back from a tournament and probably won't be going to many serious tournaments for a couple of weeks, so expect me to start working on this more, I'll have more time. Soon as I recuperate from all this stress @_@

DtJ Hilt · Sep 13, 2010

Discovery. If you downthrow immediately after a pummel, the pikmin has to catch up to Olimar initiating the dthrow. So Olimar starts his animation, and the opponent falls to the ground, but the pikmin takes a moment before slams into him. The pikmin hits the opponent 3 frames late, but the hitlag and hitstun are both applied in the same matter, only a bit late. This is good, because it means that Olimar is free from cool down three frames earlier, while the opponent suffers the exact same amount of hitstun.

In other words, downthrowing immediately after a pummel adds three frames of hitstun, in a sense.

Edit: Just tested it with the other three throws, and the same applies. However, the main thing about dthrow is that it gives us more frame advantage, meaning we'll be able to combo more. Using it with up/forward/back throw doesn't actually leave them in any more hitstun than it would if you didn't pummel (and neither does dthrow, technically), but it does still allow us to act three frames earlier than we normally would, after throwing them. So in other words, not as big of a deal as dthrow.

-Vocal- · Sep 13, 2010

Hilt said:
Discovery. If you downthrow immediately after a pummel, the pikmin has to catch up to Olimar initiating the dthrow. So Olimar starts his animation, and the opponent falls to the ground, but the pikmin takes a moment before slams into him. The pikmin hits the opponent 3 frames late, but the hitlag and hitstun are both applied in the same matter, only a bit late. This is good, because it means that Olimar is free from cool down three frames earlier, while the opponent suffers the exact same amount of hitstun.

In other words, downthrowing immediately after a pummel adds three frames of hitstun, in a sense.

Edit: Just tested it with the other three throws, and the same applies. However, the main thing about dthrow is that it gives us more frame advantage, meaning we'll be able to combo more. Using it with up/forward/back throw doesn't actually leave them in any more hitstun than it would if you didn't pummel (and neither does dthrow, technically), but it does still allow us to act three frames earlier than we normally would, after throwing them. So in other words, not as big of a deal as dthrow.

Nice discovery! Maybe Dthrow > Fair will work a little longer with this? How soon after the pummel are we talking, like one frame?

DtJ Hilt · Sep 13, 2010

As for how long you need to start the dthrow, I don't know. It's more than one frame, I know that, but I don't know exactly how long. I was able to do it three or four frames afterwards, so as long as you buffer the dthrow you should be able to do it easily.

Also, here's some frame data I just took care of. Since hitstun accelleration is character dependent, I'll be doing this character by character, and color by color. Here's the data for Olimar's Yellow Down Throw on Meta Knight, when completely fresh.

[Collapse=Yellow Downthrow (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]Yellow Downthrow[/B]

[U]Basics[/U]
Startup:       1-14
Hitbox 1       15
Cool Down:     16-35

Hitlag:        10

[U]Hitstun[/U]
0%:            29
1-6%:          30
7-12%:         31
13-999%        14

[/Collapse]So, to sum things up, at 0%, the opponent suffers 10 frames of hitlag, and 29 frames of hitstun, meaning they are able to act on frame 55 after Olimar initiates the dthrow. Keep in mind that while, usually, both the attacking character and the character being attacked suffer hitlag, in this case the pikmin attacks separate from Olimar, so Olimar does not suffer hitlag, and gets closer to the end of cool down, while the opponent has to undergo the frames of hitlag. Meaning, in this case, you are able to add the hitlag and hitstun together. Since Olimar is able to act on frame 36, this gives us 19 frames to hit the opponent before they are even able to start an attack or air dodge. Also, this goes up by one frame at 1%, and one frame at 7%, however it drops dramatically at 13%. And if you start the throw immediately after pummeling, it adds another 3 frames. With this, the maximum amount of frame advantage we can get is 24 frames from a Yellow Down Throw on Meta Knight.

Dnyce · Sep 13, 2010

Hilt said:
Discovery. If you downthrow immediately after a pummel, the pikmin has to catch up to Olimar initiating the dthrow. So Olimar starts his animation, and the opponent falls to the ground, but the pikmin takes a moment before slams into him. The pikmin hits the opponent 3 frames late, but the hitlag and hitstun are both applied in the same matter, only a bit late. This is good, because it means that Olimar is free from cool down three frames earlier, while the opponent suffers the exact same amount of hitstun.

In other words, downthrowing immediately after a pummel adds three frames of hitstun, in a sense.

Edit: Just tested it with the other three throws, and the same applies. However, the main thing about dthrow is that it gives us more frame advantage, meaning we'll be able to combo more. Using it with up/forward/back throw doesn't actually leave them in any more hitstun than it would if you didn't pummel (and neither does dthrow, technically), but it does still allow us to act three frames earlier than we normally would, after throwing them. So in other words, not as big of a deal as dthrow.

Hilt said:
As for how long you need to start the dthrow, I don't know. It's more than one frame, I know that, but I don't know exactly how long. I was able to do it three or four frames afterwards, so as long as you buffer the dthrow you should be able to do it easily.

Also, here's some frame data I just took care of. Since hitstun accelleration is character dependent, I'll be doing this character by character, and color by color. Here's the data for Olimar's Yellow Down Throw on Meta Knight, when completely fresh.

[Collapse=Yellow Downthrow (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]Yellow Downthrow[/B] [U]Basics[/U] Startup: 1-14 Hitbox 1 15 Cool Down: 16-35 Hitlag: 10 [U]Hitstun[/U] 0%: 29 1-6%: 30 7-12%: 31 13-999% 14

[/Collapse]So, to sum things up, at 0%, the opponent suffers 10 frames of hitlag, and 29 frames of hitstun, meaning they are able to act on frame 55 after Olimar initiates the dthrow. Keep in mind that while, usually, both the attacking character and the character being attacked suffer hitlag, in this case the pikmin attacks separate from Olimar, so Olimar does not suffer hitlag, and gets closer to the end of cool down, while the opponent has to undergo the frames of hitlag. Meaning, in this case, you are able to add the hitlag and hitstun together. Since Olimar is able to act on frame 36, this gives us 19 frames to hit the opponent before they are even able to start an attack or air dodge. Also, this goes up by one frame at 1%, and one frame at 7%, however it drops dramatically at 13%. And if you start the throw immediately after pummeling, it adds another 3 frames. With this, the maximum amount of frame advantage we can get is 24 frames from a Yellow Down Throw on Meta Knight.

Best $20 I ever spent

-Vocal- · Sep 13, 2010

Hilt said:
As for how long you need to start the dthrow, I don't know. It's more than one frame, I know that, but I don't know exactly how long. I was able to do it three or four frames afterwards, so as long as you buffer the dthrow you should be able to do it easily.

Also, here's some frame data I just took care of. Since hitstun accelleration is character dependent, I'll be doing this character by character, and color by color. Here's the data for Olimar's Yellow Down Throw on Meta Knight, when completely fresh.

[Collapse=Yellow Downthrow (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]Yellow Downthrow[/B] [U]Basics[/U] Startup: 1-14 Hitbox 1 15 Cool Down: 16-35 Hitlag: 10 [U]Hitstun[/U] 0%: 29 1-6%: 30 7-12%: 31 13-999% 14

[/Collapse]So, to sum things up, at 0%, the opponent suffers 10 frames of hitlag, and 29 frames of hitstun, meaning they are able to act on frame 55 after Olimar initiates the dthrow. Keep in mind that while, usually, both the attacking character and the character being attacked suffer hitlag, in this case the pikmin attacks separate from Olimar, so Olimar does not suffer hitlag, and gets closer to the end of cool down, while the opponent has to undergo the frames of hitlag. Meaning, in this case, you are able to add the hitlag and hitstun together. Since Olimar is able to act on frame 36, this gives us 19 frames to hit the opponent before they are even able to start an attack or air dodge. Also, this goes up by one frame at 1%, and one frame at 7%, however it drops dramatically at 13%. And if you start the throw immediately after pummeling, it adds another 3 frames. With this, the maximum amount of frame advantage we can get is 24 frames from a Yellow Down Throw on Meta Knight.

Niiiiiiiiice

Is there a similar effect on Yellow Usmash? As in, could Yellow Dsmash > Yellow Usmash > Uair be a real string?

Kronar · Sep 13, 2010

vVv Fino said:
Best $20 I ever spent

Just think, there's bound to be even more to come.

Pummel -> dthrow... good **** Hilt! Congrats at Schools in Session by the way. :D

Also, how would you even start to initiate the grab release shenanigans on Lucas/Ness? Unless I'm reading this wrong, they only have 1 (11 with buffering...?) frame to get out of it. So unless someones reaction time is ****ing perfect wouldn't it still be really hard to get out of? And are we talking ground or air release? Cause I was messing around in training and when I had Lucas on Stop it would ALWAYS ground release. But when it was on Attack it would Air Release quite often. :S [/smash NOOB]

The Fluff · Sep 13, 2010

Ness/Lucas are impacted by their ground release. The Grab Release infinite takes advantage of Olimar's short distance grab release and buffering a dash grab.

I'll post some of the grab release testing I've done later this weekend hopefully, the following weekend at the latest (hopefully).

Hilt, do you think characters would get an extra 3 frames of hitstun if you pummeled and grab released at the same time? I doubt it :\.

Luxor · Sep 13, 2010

Since you can't "force" when they're going to grab release, it's a moot point anyway. It all depends how they mash out.

DtJ Hilt · Sep 14, 2010

[Collapse=Blue Downthrow (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]Blue Downthrow[/B]

[U]Basics[/U]
Startup:       1-14
Hitbox 1       15
Cool Down:     16-35

Hitlag:        7

[U]Hitstun[/U]
Blue Down Throw
0-4%           29
5-11%          30
12-16%         31
17-999%        14

[/Collapse]
Because blues dish out three less frames of hitlag than yellows do, we don't get as much frame advantage as we would with yellows, however it's still plenty enough for a combo. And it takes longer before the decline, which means Blue Downthrow combos work from 0-16%, while Yellows only work from 0-12%, on Meta Knight.

@Vocal: Notice how at a certain percentage the hitstun decreases dramatically? For every color of up smash except white, the hitstun starts at this declined point. However, what I do want to test is if a slightly staled up smash would cause it to not yet get to this point and give a larger amount of hitstun instead. Which would be amazing.

Edit: OMG I WAS RIGHT

A completely fresh Yellow Up Smash has 14 frames of hitlag and 14 frames of hitstun on Meta Knight. However, a Yellow Up Smash with Up Smash in the first slot of the stale moves list, has 13 frames of hitlag and 31 FRAMES OF HITSTUN. Granted, this does not mean that Dthrow -> Up Smash -> Up Air is a perfectly legit combo, because this is judging that it's at 0%. But if the Up Smash is more stale, then it should work at higher percents as well. What this does mean is that Yellow Up Smash will combo into other things, such as another up smash LOL. Going to check now to see exactly how much frame advantage we have.

OMG EDIT: 20 FRAMES

WE HAVE TWENTY FRAMES OF ADVANTAGE

So like.. if you kill with an up smash, and land a yellow up smash, first thing on the next stock, we hit them with enough hitstun to legitimately combo into:

Up Smash
Up Tilt
Fair
Up Air
Neutral Air
Purple Pikmin Toss
Pikmin Chain

You actually have enough time to Up Smash, PLUCK ANOTHER ****IN PIKMIN, and then UP SMASH THEM AGAIN all the while them being in hitstun.

Holy ****.

DtJ Hilt · Sep 14, 2010

[Collapse=Yellow Downthrow (Snake)]

Code:

[B]Yellow Downthrow[/B]

[U]Basics[/U]
Startup:       1-14
Hitbox 1       15
Cool Down:     16-35

Hitlag:        10

[U]Hitstun[/U]
0-2%           29
3-9%           30
10-16%         31
17-999%        14

[/Collapse][Collapse=Blue Downthrow (Snake)]

Code:

[B]Blue Downthrow[/B]

[U]Basics[/U]
Startup:       1-14
Hitbox 1       15
Cool Down:     16-35

Hitlag:        7

[U]Hitstun[/U]
0-8%           29
3-15%          30
16-22%         31
23-999%        14

[/Collapse]Did some more testing with staled up smash. First of all, I forgot to mention that Dair is legit after a stale up smash. Up Smash -> Footstool -> Dair is actually a combo, but if the opponent mashes air dodge, you have a 1 frame window to input the second jump, because characters can't be footstooled while they're in hitstun, and 2 frames after hitstun, their air dodge comes out.

Also, and this is kinda big, if you're on a stage with a breakable object (Castle Siege statues, Luigi's Mansion pillars, possibly Wario's Bike), after landing a kill, stale the **** out of your up smash, hitting it on the object. It's now stale enough to dish out hitstun after a Red, Yellow, Blue, or White down throw.

Yeah.

Downthrow -> Up Smash -> Whatever the **** you want.

Yeah.

-Vocal- · Sep 14, 2010

Hilt said:
[Collapse=Blue Downthrow (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]Blue Downthrow[/B] [U]Basics[/U] Startup: 1-14 Hitbox 1 15 Cool Down: 16-35 Hitlag: 7 [U]Hitstun[/U] Blue Down Throw 0-4% 29 5-11% 30 12-16% 31 17-999% 14

[/Collapse]
Because blues dish out three less frames of hitlag than yellows do, we don't get as much frame advantage as we would with yellows, however it's still plenty enough for a combo. And it takes longer before the decline, which means Blue Downthrow combos work from 0-16%, while Yellows only work from 0-12%, on Meta Knight.

@Vocal: Notice how at a certain percentage the hitstun decreases dramatically? For every color of up smash except white, the hitstun starts at this declined point. However, what I do want to test is if a slightly staled up smash would cause it to not yet get to this point and give a larger amount of hitstun instead. Which would be amazing.

Edit: OMG I WAS RIGHT

A completely fresh Yellow Up Smash has 14 frames of hitlag and 14 frames of hitstun on Meta Knight. However, a Yellow Up Smash with Up Smash in the first slot of the stale moves list, has 13 frames of hitlag and 31 FRAMES OF HITSTUN. Granted, this does not mean that Dthrow -> Up Smash -> Up Air is a perfectly legit combo, because this is judging that it's at 0%. But if the Up Smash is more stale, then it should work at higher percents as well. What this does mean is that Yellow Up Smash will combo into other things, such as another up smash LOL. Going to check now to see exactly how much frame advantage we have.

OMG EDIT: 20 FRAMES

WE HAVE TWENTY FRAMES OF ADVANTAGE

So like.. if you kill with an up smash, and land a yellow up smash, first thing on the next stock, we hit them with enough hitstun to legitimately combo into:

Up Smash

Up Tilt

Fair

Up Air

Neutral Air

Purple Pikmin Toss

Pikmin Chain

You actually have enough time to Up Smash, PLUCK ANOTHER ****IN PIKMIN, and then UP SMASH THEM AGAIN all the while them being in hitstun.

Holy ****.

Hilt said:
[Collapse=Yellow Downthrow (Snake)]

Code:

[B]Yellow Downthrow[/B] [U]Basics[/U] Startup: 1-14 Hitbox 1 15 Cool Down: 16-35 Hitlag: 10 [U]Hitstun[/U] 0-2% 29 3-9% 30 10-16% 31 17-999% 14

[/Collapse][Collapse=Blue Downthrow (Snake)]

Code:

[B]Blue Downthrow[/B] [U]Basics[/U] Startup: 1-14 Hitbox 1 15 Cool Down: 16-35 Hitlag: 7 [U]Hitstun[/U] 0-8% 29 3-15% 30 16-22% 31 23-999% 14

[/Collapse]Did some more testing with staled up smash. First of all, I forgot to mention that Dair is legit after a stale up smash. Up Smash -> Footstool -> Dair is actually a combo, but if the opponent mashes air dodge, you have a 1 frame window to input the second jump, because characters can't be footstooled while they're in hitstun, and 2 frames after hitstun, their air dodge comes out.

Also, and this is kinda big, if you're on a stage with a breakable object (Castle Siege statues, Luigi's Mansion pillars, possibly Wario's Bike), after landing a kill, stale the **** out of your up smash, hitting it on the object. It's now stale enough to dish out hitstun after a Red, Yellow, Blue, or White down throw.

Yeah.

Downthrow -> Up Smash -> Whatever the **** you want.

Yeah.

omfg Hilt I love you!!! <3 <3 <3

Does this work with all Usmashes as well?

Soon as you said stale combos better I was already thinkin of striking to Yoshi's just so I could use the Shy Guys to stale it :chuckle:

I guess this could work on Brinstar as well...and Luigis...prob others I'm forgetting...

Jane · Sep 14, 2010

was it really necessary to quote him, voc? xD

but yeah hilt, amazing stuff

Dnyce · Sep 14, 2010

Yup, time for a new custom title. :3

Hilt - da bess I ever had

-Vocal- · Sep 14, 2010

vVv Fino said:
Yup, time for a new custom title. :3

Hilt - da bess I ever had

<3 you too Fino, without you none of this would have happened...for a while. And sooner is better

Luxor · Sep 14, 2010

...wow, seriously. That's cool^2.

Can anybody tell me A. what frame Usmash hits on B. Damage it does with each pikmin C. the IASA frame? Kthxbai.

Kronar · Sep 14, 2010

^ I'm pretty sure you can find A and B in the Deflowered guide.

The Fluff said:
Ness/Lucas are impacted by their ground release. The Grab Release infinite takes advantage of Olimar's short distance grab release and buffering a dash grab.

I'll post some of the grab release testing I've done later this weekend hopefully, the following weekend at the latest (hopefully).

Hilt, do you think characters would get an extra 3 frames of hitstun if you pummeled and grab released at the same time? I doubt it :\.

How do you buffer a dash grab when you have no idea when they're going to break out? Is that something you just have to get a feel for and learn what the release animation looks like? One last thing, is it really an infinite if you have to dash grab them? You WILL get to the edge of the stage eventually, unless you can pivot grab when you get to the edge of the stage but I doubt that.

Insert more obligatory Hilt <333 What would we do without you? XD

Luxor · Sep 14, 2010

Yeah, the grab release on Ness and Lucas is useless though technically possible.

If this is the right data:
*15-14-15-9-16
Hits on: 8
Endson: 32

Judging by frame 8 hit and extracting 11 for endlag out of Hilt's above post, we get:

Red on block: -6
Yellow on block: -7
Blue on block: -6
White on block: -8
Purple on block: -6

If I misinterpreted any of that input that's wrong, but apparently Usmash is pretty safe on block... but you can be shieldgrabbed by most characters. Interestingly, Snake will never be able to shieldgrab your Usmash unless it's white AFAIK. If the shieldpush keeps you out of grab range you're set. Because of that, hitting with the edge of Yellow's horizontal range is pretty much unpunishable on block. Usmash is such a beast.

Weruop · Sep 15, 2010

I'm REALLY loving the hitstun data

)))))))) <333333333

something i wanted to ask is
what is the frame window for the trick where u drop back from the edge, upb, hold forward, and immediately land on the stage? its kind of strict but my muscle memory is helping me get it down. itd probably help to know the exact frames though from when u let go of the edge.

Dnyce · Sep 15, 2010

Weruop said:
I'm REALLY loving the hitstun data )))))))) <333333333

something i wanted to ask is
what is the frame window for the trick where u drop back from the edge, upb, hold forward, and immediately land on the stage? its kind of strict but my muscle memory is helping me get it down. itd probably help to know the exact frames though from when u let go of the edge.

Here's what I've found. If you upB and the tether comes out and you land on stage (not tethering the edge), you doing it too fast. If you upB and tether the edge and fall down you doin it too slow. That should help a bit (I know it did for me).

I don't think it's really necessary to get the frames on it.

Weruop · Sep 15, 2010

vVv Fino said:
Here's what I've found. If you upB and the tether comes out and you land on stage (not tethering the edge), you doing it too fast. If you upB and tether the edge and fall down you doin it too slow. That should help a bit (I know it did for me).

I don't think it's really necessary to get the frames on it.

i know that much.subconciously i was tihnking maybe the frame data would help somewhat :laugh:

im getting it down tho.

Dnyce · Sep 15, 2010

Kronar said:
Insert more obligatory Hilt <333 What would we do without you? XD

Cry. Cry a lot. Mostly about how under-developed our character is.

Weruop · Sep 15, 2010

Id like to look for real, pikmin specific combos ( for metaknight) as long as ud get the frame data hilt

for example, if a white upsmash has enough hitlag and hitstun, id find out if we cant follow up with a yellow upsmash right afterward and be able to follow up with an upair.

stuff like that

questions i really need answered >.< lol.

1.
When u say "a Yellow Up Smash with Up Smash in the first slot of the stale moves list, has 13 frames of hitlag and 31 FRAMES OF HITSTUN", does this mean only at 0 percent, low percent, or all percents?

2.
how does the yellow upsmash hitlag and hitstun for the above quote work when upsmash is say, in the 2nd stale moves slot?

3.
can we get hitstun similar to that in the quote of my first question by doing things other than having upsmash in the very last stale move spot?

4.
does having (one)upsmash in stale move slot 2-8 AND one in slot 1 affect the quote in my first question?

5.
Red white and purple d throw info is needed

6.
red,blue,white,purple upsmash info is needed too

sorry if this would take a long time. i just think it could be very helpful. private message me when u get this info. <3

DtJ Hilt · Sep 15, 2010

Weruop said:
1.
When u say "a Yellow Up Smash with Up Smash in the first slot of the stale moves list, has 13 frames of hitlag and 31 FRAMES OF HITSTUN", does this mean only at 0 percent, low percent, or all percents?

Really, really low percents. Basically zero. I haven't tested the exact percents that it combos at because it's character dependent and I haven't had the time yet.

Weruop said:
2.
how does the yellow upsmash hitlag and hitstun for the above quote work when upsmash is say, in the 2nd stale moves slot?

The more it moves down the stale moves list, the less longer it will deal hitstun large enough to combo. I haven't tested Yellow Up Smash with Up Smash in the second move slot.

Weruop said:
3.
can we get hitstun similar to that in the quote of my first question by doing things other than having upsmash in the very last stale move spot?

I'm not sure what you mean

Weruop said:
4.
does having (one)upsmash in stale move slot 2-8 AND one in slot 1 affect the quote in my first question?

Yes it does. The more slots it's in, the higher percents the opponent is able to be at before Yellow Up Smash doesn't combo into anything.

Weruop said:
5.
Red white and purple d throw info is needed

Just for reference, Purple Down Throw never combos into anything. It might on snake or someone heavier. I'll check it another time because imo it's not that important right now.

Weruop said:
6.
red,blue,white,purple upsmash info is needed too

Red/Blue/White don't combo into anything even if up smash is in the first stale slot. I haven't tested it when it's in a few other slots, but I know for sure that if the up smash is completely stale it combos into whatever you want. I don't know how long this is a combo, but I'll check it sometime. Again, more important things to check atm.

However, Luxor, I have a request of you. Somewhere on this site there's a formula that tells exactly how the formula for staled moves works. If you know this, or know where to find it, I would be greatly appreciative.

I don't plan on sleeping tonight so expect a post from me with some stuff sometime before the sun comes up.

Weruop · Sep 15, 2010

ill update this post in the morning ( about 8 hours)

1: okay thanks

2: ok so the further down the stale moves list, the worst off for frame advantage. got it. i still wanna know how itd be in the 2nd move slot so i can see how much worse it is to begin with.

3: is there a way we can yield anywhere near the 31frames of hitstun as done with a slightly staled yellow upsmash ( 31frames of hitstun)

4: so, upsmash in 1st, #th, and #th stale move slot > upsmash in 1st and #th spot > upsmash in 1st spot, in terms of frame advantage? (or are u saying that since upsmash will be more stale, the opponent wont be hit away as far after the upsmash, therefore leading to a more simple followup?)

5:thx for the dthrow info ^_^ <3

6: i heard that white upsmash might have extrahitstun for upsmash.. anyways
since fresh yellow upsmash gives us a 5frame advantage, we cant really truly combo into anything. first hit of uptilt is 6th frame, 2nd is 12. upsmash is 8, nair is 8 or 9 ( how many frames after jump til we are actually in the air? )
i think the only way we can follow up an upsmash with something is if the opponent doesnt air dodge in time. also, can they buffer an airdodge while in their hitstun?

7: now im starting to wonder how the hitstun is for yellow/white upsmash at different percents lol.

ill be heading to school soon and ill be back in 4 hours

RichBrown · Sep 15, 2010

omg

this is incredible

DtJ Hilt · Sep 15, 2010

Down Throw Summary (Meta Knight)

Alright, I finished getting all of the data for all five colors of our Down Throw on Meta Knight. So here's how much hitstun, hitlag, and frame advantage we have on our Meta Knight and at what percents:

[Collapse=Down Throw Basics (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[b][u]Basics[/b][/u]
Start Up:      1-14
Hitbox:        15 or 18
Cool Down:     16-35 or 18-35

[b][u]Hitlag[/b][/u]
Red:           7
Yellow:        10
Blue:          7
White:         7
Purple:        7

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Red Downthrow Hitstun (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]Red Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0-4%           30             17
5-8%           31             18
9-999%         14             1

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Yellow Downthrow Hitstun (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]Yellow Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0%:            29             19
1-6%:          30             20
7-12%:         31             21
13-999%        14             4

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Blue Downthrow Hitstun (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]Blue Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0-4%           29	      16
5-11%          30             17
12-16%         31             18
17-999%        14             1

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=White Downthrow Hitstun (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]white Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0-5%           29             16
6-13%          30             17
14-19%         31             18
20-999%        14             1

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Purple Downthrow Hitstun (Meta Knight)]

Code:

[B]PurpleDownthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0-999%         14             1

[/Collapse]

DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr · Sep 15, 2010

Hilt my man, I think you'll be needing this!

DtJ Hilt · Sep 15, 2010

lol squid XD

Edited the first post to include a collection of important posts. Luxor, I linked your Shield Stun post (with credit given, of course). Also I haven't said it yet but thanks for the info :D Oh, also I edited your post to make it left aligned, because if I didn't it automatically center aligns when you view the post by itself. Or maybe it's just my skin that it does that too. I don't know if it does that to every skin or if it's just one of the bugs that mine has. I didn't change anything else in the post though.

DtJ Hilt · Sep 15, 2010

Down Throw Summary (Snake)

[Collapse=Down Throw Basics]

Code:

[b][u]Basics[/b][/u]
Start Up:      1-14
Hitbox:        15 or 18
Cool Down:     16-35 or 18-35

[b][u]Hitlag[/b][/u]
Red:           7
Yellow:        10
Blue:          7
White:         7
Purple:        7

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Red Downthrow Hitstun (Snake)]

Code:

[B]Red Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0%             29             16
1-6%           30             17
7-12%          31             18
13-999%        14             1

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Yellow Downthrow Hitstun (Snake)]

Code:

[B]Yellow Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0-2%           29             19
3-9%           30             20
10-16%         31             21
17-999%        14             4

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Blue Downthrow Hitstun (Snake)]

Code:

[B]Blue Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0-8%           29             16
3-15%          30             17
16-22%         31             18
23-999%        14             1

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=White Downthrow Hitstun (Snake)]

Code:

[B]white Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0-7%           29             16
8-16%          30             17
17-25%         31             18
26-999%        14             1

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Purple Downthrow Hitstun (Snake)]

Code:

[B]Purple Downthrow Hitstun[/B]
[U][b]Percentage[/b][/U]     [b][u]Hitstun[/b][/u]        [b][u]Frame Advantage[/u][/b]
0-999%         14             1

[/Collapse]

DtJ Hilt · Sep 15, 2010

Every character except for Bowser, Donkey Kong (who are heavier than Snake), Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Mr. Game & Watch, Kirby, and Pikachu (who are lighter than Meta Knight) will be somewhere in between those two lists, so use your best judgement because I am not testing many more characters lol if any more at all.

If I test downthrow hitstun for anymore characters, it will either be because
A) It's an important matchup that this data would be important for (Marth or Falco, perhaps)
B) We combo the **** outta the character and I wanna see exactly what percents it works at

I'm also thinking about testing dthrow hitstun with dthrow in the first move in the stale list, and dthrow with dthrow in the second move in the stale move list. This being that a lot of the time we can predict and land a regrab on an opponent, whether it being straight after a downthrow, or after a forward air. I'm pretty sure that a yellow downthrow with downthrow in the second slot will still be a legit combo on snake after a downthrow -> forward from most colors, but I'd like to know for sure.

-Vocal- · Sep 15, 2010

Hilt my man you are awesome :D I now have a specific order that I'll sort to after stocks: yellow, whatever, blue/white, whatever, purple. If I can get that, I'll be happy ^_^

Weruop · Sep 15, 2010

i updated my above post. cant wait for more info

also, where can i find get this program that ur using (PSA?)?

Noa. · Sep 15, 2010

My god.

What is going on here.

Blissard · Sep 15, 2010

After seeing how much **** this is, I suddenly don't want to help so much anymore XD Yeah but Hilt if there are any smaller, less important side-projects that you have, I wanna help! (but I said small, and less important, because I haven't done this stuff before, lol).

Weruop · Sep 15, 2010

i just got the idea of upsmash to platform cancel to jab lock to smash attack
it seems possible but i think theyd be able to get out of it, and it works best at a few percentages. i was wondering if it would work when u use the 31frame hitstun yellow upsmash..

edit:
knowing the frame data, im betting d throw to dair works on most characters, atleast with certain pikmin. we should find out how much histun and lag is dealt with certain dair. this way we can find out if we have d throw > dair > regrab
(also, does olimar undergo hitlag from his ownd air? )

DtJ Hilt · Sep 16, 2010

Weruop said:
3: is there a way we can yield anywhere near the 31frames of hitstun as done with a slightly staled yellow upsmash ( 31frames of hitstun)

I don't know, I might check it sometime

Weruop said:
4: so, upsmash in 1st, #th, and #th stale move slot > upsmash in 1st and #th spot > upsmash in 1st spot, in terms of frame advantage? (or are u saying that since upsmash will be more stale, the opponent wont be hit away as far after the upsmash, therefore leading to a more simple followup?)

Yep, that's right. Having it in 1, 2, and 3, is better than having it in 1 and 2, which is better than having it in 1.

Weruop said:
6: i heard that white upsmash might have extrahitstun for upsmash.. anyways
since fresh yellow upsmash gives us a 5frame advantage, we cant really truly combo into anything. first hit of uptilt is 6th frame, 2nd is 12. upsmash is 8, nair is 8 or 9 ( how many frames after jump til we are actually in the air? )
i think the only way we can follow up an upsmash with something is if the opponent doesnt air dodge in time. also, can they buffer an airdodge while in their hitstun?

White has hitstun even when it's fresh. White fresh hitstun = Yellow stale hitstun, basically. I don't have the exact percents that white up smash deals 31 (or 30) hitstun at, but it's around 8-12 and character dependent.

Jumping takes five frames.

Yeah you can buffer anything when you're in hitstun. If you're in hitstun for 14 frames, you can buffer an attack on frames 10-14 and have the attack come out on 15.

Blissard said:
After seeing how much **** this is, I suddenly don't want to help so much anymore XD Yeah but Hilt if there are any smaller, less important side-projects that you have, I wanna help! (but I said small, and less important, because I haven't done this stuff before, lol).

lol told you..

Blissard said:
After seeing how much **** this is, I suddenly don't want to help so much anymore XD Yeah but Hilt if there are any smaller, less important side-projects that you have, I wanna help! (but I said small, and less important, because I haven't done this stuff before, lol).

lol told you..

Weruop said:
knowing the frame data, im betting d throw to dair works on most characters, atleast with certain pikmin.

It does. We definitely have enough frame advantage for it to work.

Weruop said:
we should find out how much histun and lag is dealt with certain dair. this way we can find out if we have d throw > dair > regrab

lol you mean me? From my testing a long while back, I know that the sour spot of dair has a lot of hitstun, but I don't know exactly how much, or at what percents. What I was thinking was dthrow -> dair -> fair.

Weruop said:
(also, does olimar undergo hitlag from his ownd air? )

Yup. Olimar undergoes hitlag for all aerials, tilts, and jab.

As for how I'm getting this data, I have a homebrew hack that allows me to freeze the game and travel frame by frame.

Here's the code for anyone that wants it

Debug Pause:-(GCC)
80000000 805B8A08
0402E5AC 8819000B
4A000000 804DE470
38000000 EFFF1000
86410000 00000001
E2000001 00000000
4A000000 805B8A08
3A000002 00FF0000
12000002 00000001
E2000001 00000000
4A000000 804DE470
38000000 FFEF0010
4A000000 805B8A08
3A000002 FF000000
12000002 00000100
E2000002 00000000

Button Modifier:
041E6CD8 4BE1C128
041E6D1C 4BE1C114
06002E00 00000068
9421FF80 BC410008
7CE4402E 7CE738F8
7CE73039 3864FFC0
7CE3412E 7CC4412E
B8410008 38210080
60000000 481E3EB0
9421FF80 BC410008
7C03202E 3DC01000
7DCE70F8 7C007039
740E0408 3DE00408
7C0E7800 40820008
64001000 B8410008
38210080 481E3EBC

Weruop · Sep 16, 2010

ill see if my friend omar knows exactly what to do with those codes and then id love to start helping. would i just need homebrew and an SD card? thx for the replies. i think metaknight should be like the default test character xD. cant wait for u/me to find out white pikmin upsmash info. if its even better than yellow then thats just incredible.

DtJ Hilt · Sep 16, 2010

That'd be great if you could help, lol. Yeah, you'll just need homebrew and an SD card. I can help you with things once you get it running, because knowing how to do it can get difficult/frustrating XD

Blissard · Sep 16, 2010

Hilt did you just quote my same post twice just to rub it in my face twice? Lmao.

I have a question about the code though. If I already have a RSBE01.gct file for my file patch 3.51 codes, do I have to make another gct file by putting both these codes and the file patch codes in the same txt file and using cheatmanager to make a new gct file?

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