Match-Up Export Thread: Yoshi

Edit: I had a full summary finished and my computer ate it. With that said, while sitting in front of my computer screen hands poised to write it up again I realize, the Yoshi MU doesn't need a full summary because the entire MU can be summarized in a few points.

1. Strike FD, SV, and CS. Don't give Yoshi room to camp or throw stuff.

2. Avoid egg throw while approaching. Once Kirby is in close-quarters avoid the pivot grab or RAR-BAir.

3. Grab combos or UTilt string to rack damage. Any aerial will do though as will any variation of the grab combo. If Yoshi DI's up and away, switch grab combo to FThrow>FAir. 9/14/11 Update: Grab combos don't actually work on Yoshi. You'll get Nair'd out of it if you go for the Bair after reverseUTilt during the normal Kirby grab string.

4. Push Yoshi offstage where Kirby destroys characters. Read the superarmor jump and punish with ledgegrab, aerial hammer, BAir, FTilt (if Yoshi is close) or FSmash. (If Kirby is holding the ledge and Yoshi is within grab range of the ledge, expect the eggtoss to get Kirby off the ledge so Yoshi can grab it.)

5. Win and Ban FD or JJ.

6. Repeat 2-5.

In the event step 2-5 don't go according to plan and you somehow lose, CP to RC, PTAD, PS1, LC, or anywhere you feel comfortable.

P.S. The greatest approach is NOT powershielding. It's walk forward a bit and crouch>DTilt. DTilt makes Kirby juuussstt short enough to be able to dodge a pivot grab.

I love this match up. It's so fun to run from Kirby for 8 minutes.

well zgashi is correct if you camp alot as yoshi
but because of yoshis long range and egg roll attack id have to say it all depends on the stage

LASHING_LEAF said:

well zgashi is correct if you camp alot as yoshi
but because of yoshis long range and egg roll attack id have to say it all depends on the stage

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Stop.

Egg Roll is a horrible move and should never be used ever. Even if I do use it, it's only for random surprise factors like, once per every two tournaments.

It doesn't matter if Yoshi can't kill Kirby, because it's terribly difficult for Kirby to land a kill on a Yoshi that is playing VERY defensively and safe. The matches should last a long time.

★ Yoshi is such a confusing character, he may seem easy, but if a Yoshi main play defense all day, then this match up will be annoying to play not in a disadvantage, but a near even match up. Yoshi is known for his Egg Throw, and Pivot grabs, his Eggs will fly if your too far from fighting him, if your too close, a grab might most likely come. However, it's better to reach him if your in the air because you'll have a better chance of not getting grabbed, and air dodge his Eggs, (Jump + Dodge). To add, Kirby's air options out perform Yoshi's when it comes to range, and start up, his B-Air comes out pretty fast, and have a good distance, but due to the power, it's just used to raise damage, or push you away. Yoshi's U-Air is a good kill move, so beware of that if your in the air. His F-Smash is good kill move, but it starts up too late, it's not easy to land a hit with that move. His U-Smash is a pretty good kill move, especially if your behind him, his Down-B is a trick kill move, in the air Down-B won't kill you unless your at mid or high 100%, but on the ground, this move can kill at a low 100% if anyone where to use this as a kill move. ♛

★ Sure, Kirby has a good amount of kill options, (most common attack is F-Smash, B-Air, or D-Smash), but landing some of them will take a some time if Yoshi plays defensively. Most of this match up you will be forced to approach Yoshi, if your able to reach Yoshi, watch out for his grabs, if you manage to dodge getting grab, punish it with your grab, or U-Tilt strings if his percent is low, your kill options if his percent is around 90%. ♛

★ Stage wise, try to pick either stages with a platform, or an obstacle that get's in his way with using his Eggs, (Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Rainbow Cruise, or Luigi's Mansion), or small stages so you can approach him fast, (Brinstar, or Yoshi's Island). But avoid going to stages that or either flat, (Final Destination, or PictoChat), or long stages, (Jungle Japes, or Pirate Ship). ♛

★ Just posting to keep this alive. =P ♛

This matchup appears to be slanted in Kirby's favor, slightly at the very least. Overall, Yoshi benefits from far range fighting because of his Egg Throw. However, Yoshi tends to suffer in close combat fighting, falling prey to Kirby's strength in performing combos. As long as Kirby can close the distance, this matchup significantly tilts to Kirby's favor as Kirby can also exploit Yoshi primarily relying upon his second jump as a form of recovery.

With respect to performing KO's, Yoshi appears to have the advantage because all of his smashes, his Uair, and Fair can KO Kirby at about 100%, while Kirby has only his Fsmash and Giant Hammer to reliably KO Yoshi at 100%. Even though Kirby has less options to KO Yoshi, Kirby has many more options to build damage up on Yoshi, and because of Yoshi's predictable movements, landing Kirby's limited KO attacks becomes easier. On the other hand, Yoshi has to rely on using his Egg Throw to avoid close combat and build up damage.

Kirby can also counterpick smaller stages eliminating Yoshi's ability to use his Egg Throw, such as Brinstar and Castle Seige (or at least, the first part of it). Additionally, any sort of obstacles decrease the influence of Yoshi's Egg Throw, but platforms are not necessarily enough. Instead, Yoshi's Island (with the Shy Guys and platform that can tilt towards Yoshi), both Pokemon Stadiums, Castle Seige (particularly the second part), and Rainbow Cruise are Kirby-favored stages.

Overall, it seems that this matchup is still favored towards Kirby at perhaps at 60:40 ratio seeing as Kirby has a great deal of stages to counterpick against Yoshi, nulifying Yoshi's Egg. While Yoshi may still have pivot grabs, the reason Yoshi would grab Kirby would only be to space with Egg Throw afterwords. Also, Kirby's strength in performing combos can quickly bring Yoshi up to killing percentages, while Yoshi must rely primarily upon Egg Throw to build up damage. If Yoshi cannot maintain proper distance from Kirby, the outcome of the match seems clear.

Bair/egg lay mixups say hi! Eggs are most definitely NOT Yoshi's primary damage builder... and I think I've double jumped out of Kirby's grab/uair string after the throw, so that may not be as reliable as you think. Why are you mentioning Fair at all and not even mentioning, say, rising Nair or some other un-situational KO move?

Depster said:

Bair/egg lay mixups say hi! Eggs are most definitely NOT Yoshi's primary damage builder...

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While the Egg Throw is not the best way to build up damage, Yoshi can usually do more damage against Kirby by keeping him away rather than up close. If Yoshi instead relys upon grabbing Kirby, his only logical option after grabbing the Kirby is to quickly pummel and throw Kirby away from him. A grab release would prove fatal for Yoshi (as Yoshi does not have an infinite on Kirby, if I am not mistaken), allowing for Kirby to follow up with a combo, and an attempt to combo would be risky for Yoshi, as most of Yoshi's combos can be avoided with smash DIs. You are right in saying that Yoshi's Egg Throw is not his primary damage builder, but against Kirby, a character that struggles when distanced, Egg Throw can be a better option to build up damage.

Why are you mentioning Fair at all and not even mentioning, say, rising Nair or some other un-situational KO move?

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My appologies. I realize that Fair is highly situational in most cases, I was only mentioning it because it is a great KO move for Yoshi. As for a rising Nair, are you referring to using it as a stage spike or as a gimp? You know the latter is more difficult to perform against Kirby.

Nair is just a good move. It has good priority, keeps some super armor I think from the double jump, and will kill around or before 130 against Kirby I think (near the ledges). And I wasn't clear on what my first sentence meant. Bair and egg lay mixups are arguably yoshi's primary approaches and deal more than half of the damage he does against most characters, seeing as egg lay gives us a free attack and bair will combo into something else most of the time.

I see what you mean, Yoshi's Nair, and his jab for that matter, have nice priority. I never really saw them as a killing move, but if the sex kick is not used then it does have considerable knockback. Alright, so this adds yet another move to Yoshi's aersenal of Kirby KOing attacks, and might actually improve Yoshi's matchup against Kirby more than I initially thought.

As for Yoshi's approaches, Yoshi's Bair can be shield grabbed if it does not shield poke first, putting Yoshi at a disadvantage if he approaches. As for using Egg Lay as an approach, I have never actually seen it performed before and figure that Kirby could dodge it by ducking if Yoshi used it in the air. However, if he used it on the ground, Kirby would have no choice but to retreat. I see your point, but it still seems that Kirby's ease of aerial approaching can really put Yoshi off if Yoshi cannot perform a good string on Kirby first. Yoshi's approaches might change the tide of a game occasionally, but are they substantial enough to adjust the proposed matchup ratio?

I'd call it even, maybe 55-45 kirby.

Kirby Yoshi even? >_> Name me one Kirby you've faced that will say that this is not based on some theorycraft BS.

Yoshi can use eggs to zone and read for some damage or camp which can make getting in somewhat of a nuisance. Chances you'll play somewhere Yoshi can actually do this? Only on a CP when Kirby wins the first match.

Once Kirby gets in grabs, FAir, BAir mixups to rack damage and gets him off stage.
(If you can't get him offstage keep dealing damage for a USmash, UThrow, FSmash, AerialHammer kill)

If Yoshi is offstage Kirby takes a stock by baiting the superarmor and punishing with Aerial Hammer, Rock, or DAir. You can even gimp him if he is far enough out.

Yoshi/Kirby, large Advantage Kirby.

Would the Yoshi discussion that has been clogging the GD thread please come here. I personally think it is an even matchup, but I've only played a yoshi main once ever in tourney.

Kewkky said:

That's what I said, you'll be throwing eggs at us and we'll use that advantage to land a hit/land and regain our jumps, but then you said you guys would never egg toss if we're close. Which is it, man?

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It really depends on how close/how high up you are i can't tell how high you're thinking so we're probably at an impasse.

Kewkky said:

Uhhh... You're gonna have to help me out here. I've never heard of a 'super jump' tech before... Is it new?

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Yoshi specific thing. Its basically a raising double jump airdodge but we keep our double jump so we'd doublejump airdodge through you and then be free to do another double jump land w/e just puts us away from you with more options

Kewkky said:

I'm trying not to jump into that area. Right now, I'm just comparing option pools. To me, it seems like Kirby has more options than yoshi in this situation, and with Yoshi's lack of solid options to cover ours in the same way as our 'jumping out of your deceptive usmash's range, ready to land and regain our jumps/land a falling attack' covers most of all the options Yoshi can do in that position to my knowledge (since we'll be zoning you until you run out of stage to retreat to).

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Yoshi has ALOT of options in this position. I think delta cod said a few in the other thread, one of them is his Fsmash which will make a perfectly spaced bair at that range a slight miss and nail you in the face for about 15%. This is also one of the times eggroll is actually a pretty safe option. Up smash would honestly beat out just about all of your aerials but you can jump over it assuming you still have jumps. Eggs are another option, uptilt is an underrated move that can also be used in this situation. Pivot grab is also amazing cause even if we wiff you have a small room to actually punish if we space it right. alot more. Put it like this Yoshi has about as many options as you do air dodgeing to the ground would beat a few of them but lose to the others, jumping a gain will beat upsmash and up tilt but will be pointless if we didn't attack or egged or hell jumped up and uaired you dropped aerials can be beat by a few options too. It turns this situation into a really big guessing game where the person with the best read wins. Thats why this matchup is so boring to me. We run for 8 minutes you chase for 8 minutes.

Kewkky said:

Okay, that's good. Any option of Yoshi's that covers most of Kirby's possible choices in this position? If Kirby is hovering just outside of your usmash range waiting for you to commit to an action so that he can land and hit you while randomly landing and regaining jumps to bait a reaction, what can Yoshi do about it to harass us in a way that we will feel threatened whenever we have to land? I really see this as a very advantageous position for Kirby, and seeing as Yoshi's metagame is almost all about retreating specials/pivot grabs/making space between him and his opponent, forcing you to run from us until you're near the stage's edge is very possible.

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Yoshi doesn't like to commit. He waits until you commit first then he'll punish. Thats what yoshi does. He punishes what you try to do. If he has a free upsmash on you he'll go for it. If he thinks you'll escape he'll back off.

Kewkky said:

I'm sure we'll never gimp a good Yoshi, what with his super armor, nice air dodge, and great second jump. We'd be doing it to threaten you into reacting in some way, and if not and you have the advantage the player will probably get desperate and actually try dairing through you.

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We usually recover high so that isn't really much of a problem. We can return on you easily without taking much damage if we recover low too. but again its a guessing game

Kewkky said:

DownB will break through the egg and keep on going. I use it to punish every getup option, or to bypass ledgeplay from non-broken characters. Since we have such a good recovery, we can afford to downB straight through the enemy in an attempt to cause some major damage. If we miss we recover, if we don't it means we timed it right to go through your egg toss and hit you before you regrabbed the edge. Not really reliable since you'll be paying attention to us as we're hovering over you, but the threat of a downB happening and hitting them while they're offstage is enough to threaten characters who don't have good offstage games.

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Edit: that was a hell of a bad sentence. We have a really good ledge game that no one abuses. I dont feel as if Down B will work at all if Yoshi payed attention.

Kewkky said:

Fsmash is just a safe way of trying to hit you if you get too close to the ledge instead of sweet-spotting as far as possible. If we hit you you're probably dead, if we miss then we clash with your egg and return to a neutral position, no damage done to either character (which means we're on the attack and you're on the defense, advantageous for us unless you predict it and run around us back to the stage by ledgehopping an airdodge through us while we fsmash).

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k

Kewkky said:

IMO Kirby's running after you threatening you with his options throughout the whole game, and you're trying to keep him away from you and punishing his mistakes. Thinking top play vs top play here and trying to keep fatal mistakes to a minimum, it's gonna be harder for Yoshi to find an opening on Kirby's game and punish it, since both characters will be being careful not to make mistakes in which to get punished. Kirby's advantageous positions near the edge after zoning Yoshi away from the center force Yoshi to play a keep-away game most of the match, running to avoid Kirby's damage-dealing threats... Yoshi has a fairly decent defensive game which is very effective against grounded approaches, but Kirby only has to go so far in the ground and when he's near enough, he'll take to the air to avoid Yoshi's usual grounded defensive threats.

I'm not saying the MU is our advantage (although I totally believe it is, but I won't go so far as to try and convince you it is), but I still can't feel it being dead even.

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The way you said it it Honestly sounds like more of a neither of us are on the offensive until the other screws up. But i still think its Even

Well, here's what I think based on my experience with Kirby.

In theory, Kirby should be able to beat Yoshi. He has the priority, the kill power, and the air-game to beat Yoshi's. However, there is one crippling thing that Kirby has that Yoshi can take full advantage of.

His mobility.

Think about it. Kirby's speed in the air, while fast-falling, and one the ground are pretty below-average. Yoshi can easily take advantage of this with his far superior mobility. Yoshi is able to space better against Kirby than against most other characters because Kirby cannot move fast enough to keep up with Yoshi in most situations. Thus, Yoshi's defensive options are very effective against Kirby in comparison to other characters.

Of course, this doesn't leave Kirby without any options. This is an even match-up for a reason. Due to Kirby being able to have multiple jumps, he is able to utilize them to bypass Yoshi's defensive options. B-air tends to do very well in this regard, because Kirby goes just high enough to avoid something like a pivot-grab and still hit Yoshi.

But wait! Yoshi could predict that you wouldn't fall for his pivot-grab, and counter your b-air with an up-angled f-tilt (works surprisingly well against Kirby's b-air, by the way). However, Kirby may think that you would try to use something like that and counter Yoshi's counter.

Basically, the match-up degenerates into a game of Yomi. Kirby has the priority and kill power, while Yoshi has the mobility and defense. They can beat each other with moves that beat out moves that beat out other moves (confusing...). This is why I think this is Yoshi's most even match-up.

@ What Polt said- >_> That's my thinking for this MU as well. I'm sad I moved from Austin before you got there.

>_> I'm saying it's our advantage again, but only slightly, barely even-ish.

<_< And the majority is right w/ the Marth MU as well you naysayer.

Kewkky said:

I really truly really truly believe that this is our advantage. But oh well, majority wins again I suppose, like the Marth MU. I am not swayed, still gonna see it as Kirby's advantage until I feel threatened whenever I play against an(other) USA Yoshi mainer.

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I know how that feels (I was the only one who said that Samus does not **** Yoshi... but then it later turned out that I was right ), but I really think that it is even. Are you planning to go to any OoC tournaments? Playing other Yoshi mains may broaden your perspective on the match-up.