Parachute Parade! - GnW Social Discussion

Mr. Escalator · Sep 24, 2010

IMO, I think Marth is the hardest, but I probably only say that because of personal inexperience vs him. I'm glad you guys are agreeing on a closer matchup vs MK, though.

I'm not sold on IC's being the hardest. They're, in my eyes at least, 45:55's against us (they have the slight advantage), similar to where I would rank Snake's matchup. So I might put it as Marth/Diddy/MK as 4-6's and Snake/ICs/Olimar as 45-55's. I don't really think Falco beats us, TBH, on a vaguely related note. These are assuming MLG stages and the LGL not being there. Some ratios could move slightly, too, I guess.

Just my impressions.

Vinnie · Sep 24, 2010

I play both characters at a high level, ICs completely sh*t on his face lol.

Mr. Escalator · Sep 25, 2010

I haven't seen a lot to suggest that (maybe you guys need to upload more G&W v ICs matches!), what with G&W's mobility and ability to split them up. Planking helps too, and platform camping if you can get something like YI/Lylat/BF. Their Uair isn't so bad, since they go to engage you and they can't grab while they're in the air.

I mean, I might be ultimately wrong, but I don't really think they're as hard as MK. Doesn't Zac do just fine vs Hylian? They seem to play each other a lot, too.

Vinnie · Sep 25, 2010

Mr. Escalator said:
I haven't seen a lot to suggest that (maybe you guys need to upload more G&W v ICs matches!), what with G&W's mobility and ability to split them up. Planking helps too, and platform camping if you can get something like YI/Lylat/BF. Their Uair isn't so bad, since they go to engage you and they can't grab while they're in the air.

I mean, I might be ultimately wrong, but I don't really think they're as hard as MK. Doesn't Zac do just fine vs Hylian? They seem to play each other a lot, too.

Yoshi's island is the 2nd worst neutral out of the beginning 5 neutrals. It goes fd-yi-bf-sv-lylat. Their uair is indeed bad for us, because it beats dair and they can just keep safely poking with uair to rack up damage. Ice block camping > planking. I have to come up with ******** theory-crafting to win this matchup most of the time =/.

I've kept this to myself, Zac, Penta, and Today, but I'll post about it I guess. 4 gimmicks/tips that allow g&w to be able to win the matchup in tourney:

1. Dtilting on platforms, especially the SV platform, is very good and hard for the ICs to get in. You can go for fairs once the platform is on either side.

2. Here's a platform. G&W is X.
______X__

You want to stand about there, and shield. Bait the uair. Here, you will fall off the platform once your shield gets pushed off, where you can buffer a uair which connects before they land, thus shooting them up, which leads to juggling/separation. MAKE SURE YOU MASTER THIS SO YOU DON'T FALL ONTO THE GROUND! If you do this, it could lead to being tech chased, which might result in you dying

.

3. Bucket has crazy range, so you can actually platform camp if they're blizzarding, bucket it, and use it to do one of two things:
-bucket through their desynch blizzard wall to separate them (the #1 priority in this matchup is to separate them and take advantage of Nana).
-use it for killing.

4. Don't let them land! Keep uairing and nairing. Don't let them air dodge through or around you. You want to juggle nana with nairs while you keep popo away. SAVE FAIR (or bucket) TO KILL NANA! It makes life a lot easier. Also don't sleep on popo, that matchup is evenish.

edit: forgot this last part. When separated, Nana can has linear DI to popo. She can only run to popo or occasionally jump (*NOT AIR DODGE*). If you hit Popo away far enough, you can actually charge a smash and she'll run right into it. You can also nair and juggle the **** out of her.

Also: When you hit nana away offstage, Popo will likely try to save her. GRAB POPO!!! Same goes for when Popo's offstage. If you have one climber grabbed, the other one will most likely be unable to recover.

Mr. Escalator · Sep 25, 2010

Well, I wouldn't dare challenge their Uair with our Dair, that'd be a losing battle.

As for your tips, 1 and 4 are pretty common sense. 3 is nonobvious and seems like it could do pretty well (I remember watching Zac bucketing a couple times when Hylian would desynch his blizzards). 2, however, is really good advice that I'm gonna try to keep to heart.

I could of sworn Zac did some planking in his latest set vs Hylian, but a skim of the video doesn't show anything. Weird.

Vinnie · Sep 25, 2010

I assume you meant 2 is really good advice lol because you mentioned 3 twice.

Mr. Escalator · Sep 25, 2010

Yeah, that's what I meant lol.
Got any tips for dealing with Marth?

Vinnie · Sep 25, 2010

Use someone else. =/

Alphicans · Sep 25, 2010

But you're saying IC's is GaW's worst match-up ON FIVE NEUTRALS. Of course it's gonna be bad >_>.

Vinnie · Sep 25, 2010

huh ?

Alphicans · Sep 25, 2010

Your match-ups are based off of the neutrals being FD, SV, YI, BF and LC. 5 neutrals. FD isn't even considered a solid neutral anymore, and rulesets are becoming more liberal with stage. 7-9 stage list starter changes the match-up considerably.

I'll quickly show you, but I am sure you already know....

fd/sv/bf/lc/yi:

IC's strike LC and BF. We strike FD and SV, so we go to our second worst stage, YI. Yay, we lose a lot match ups there. We CP a hard counter game 2, and are forced to play on SV game 3 if we win. Obvs they beat us badly.

7 neutrals (fd/sv/bf/lc/yi/ps1/halberd):

IC's strike LC, BF and halberd or ps1, we strike so we either get halberd or ps1. IC's suck on halberd's flying portion of the stage. Blizzard wall isn't as effective, and if they are on the edges, they can't do much. I play IC's as well, and I used to think halberd was an alright stage, but the dip really sucks. PS1 will probably be the stage we play on, which has a lot of room to run around and be GaW like.

9 neutrals (fd/sv/bf/lc/yi/ps1/halberd/delfino/castle siege):

Hard to tell, I can see it going to BF, castle siege or lylat all equally, so it's hard to tell. All 3 are decent stages vs them. Castle siege is a little tough cause the last transformation is a bit like FD.

With 7 or 9 neutrals we have a fighting chance vs them, with 5 neutrals, it's pretty grim.

Hylian · Sep 25, 2010

Mr. Escalator said:
Well, I wouldn't dare challenge their Uair with our Dair, that'd be a losing battle.

As for your tips, 1 and 4 are pretty common sense. 3 is nonobvious and seems like it could do pretty well (I remember watching Zac bucketing a couple times when Hylian would desynch his blizzards). 2, however, is really good advice that I'm gonna try to keep to heart.

I could of sworn Zac did some planking in his latest set vs Hylian, but a skim of the video doesn't show anything. Weird.

I had a large lead the entire game until the very end. He couldn't have planked me. I believe Zac is a better player than myself but if you watch the video you can tell he struggles greatly against me and barely barely barely pulled out a win, mainly because I got really aggressive. That is because IC's beat GW pretty badly when they are playing defensive.

UTDZac · Sep 25, 2010

True, but you pulled a win out of Game 1 when I SDed lol

A2ZOMG · Sep 25, 2010

Mr.Jake and Skate said:
A2 how do you it again?

The important part is learning to buffer frame perfect midair jump + F-air. Practice this until you manage to execute it correctly (when G&W does a midair jump, he beeps, but if you frame perfect buffer a F-air with the midair jump, you will not hear that beep).

Once you master that, it's very simple. Press back lightly to ledgedrop, then input jump + F-air. The ledgedrop does not have to be frame perfect, you can wait a few frames after ledgedropping before ledgehopping. However the input consisting of jump+F-air does have to be frame perfect.

Mr. Escalator said:
Also, I'm not a huge fan of the ledgehopped Fairs, as a mistake can cause you to go into the ****ty landing lag, right next to the edge (which in turn is near the blastzone). I can see if being good if you can master it, but you haven't even got it down, A2, judging from the video. Well, maybe you did get it down by now.

Yeah true, the matches on that video were from like last year. I'm much more consistent at it now and I can confidently say that this is a lifesaver in real matches. Especially since most players aren't trained to react to this exploit, I get a lot of free grabs after sourspot F-airs (or even after whiffs sometimes). I'll keep doing that shenanigan over and over until G&W mains prove to the masses that this is a legit technique that everyone should be aware of.

While I'm probably a very technical player (I can play both Brawl and Melee proficiently), I do not actually like having to learn a lot of difficult and technical exploits. I am confident that this is something that every G&W main can pull off consistently.

Personally Marth doesn't really terrify me. But then again it's been a while since I played guys like DSF or Mikehaze. I think things like D-throw -> DA (which puts Marth in a GREAT position for followups as well as dealing 17 damage), edgeguarding consistently (to make up for the necessity of F-air spacing in this matchup), and appropriately timed U-airs out of shield (to put Marth in more bad positions) make the Marth matchup much more manageable.

Vinnie · Sep 25, 2010

@Alphicans I can see what you're saying now and I agree with everything except for ICs thinking BF is a bad stage for them in this matchup. SV actually isn't that bad for us in this match-up because of the platform. They wouldn't strike Lylat and BF. At a really high level, they're probably going to know to strike Lylat and SV.

Oh and onstage bair is theoretically unsafe on ICs

...
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GOING TO KTAR3 TODAY! WISH ME LUCK! I think it's a fairly big tourney so yeah. :V

Today · Sep 25, 2010

I can see Icies 35:65 max, but I still don't believe it's 30:70...

GnW's worst matchup is Marth.

I agree with MK being 40:60... which just means it's MK advantage. MK doesn't destroy GnW.

I still hate Snake. </3 but I can also see that as 40:60.

Only 35:65 is really probably Marth and I guess Icies (or worse according to Vinnie.)

Just a few 40:60s, MK, ZSS, Falco, Snake, Diddy? Maybe Olimar ish (still think that's just slight disa.)
And that's it.

With the new stages, though and 9 neutrals GnW can really take advantage of that.

Also, does anyone else agree with the whole ZSS? being 40:60? I know a lot of people had ZSS problems..

A2ZOMG · Sep 25, 2010

Honestly I think the problems I have against ZSS are matchup inexperience. I don't think she's actually that bad for G&W. 40/60 is the Falco matchup, and I think Falco is clearly a better character against G&W than ZSS in terms of how many options Falco has for keeping G&W out since he actually has existent Jab followups, a reasonable grab, an intangible projectile that is very hard to deal with, and probably a better recovery.

Today · Sep 25, 2010

Hm. I know the ZSS boards have it as 60:40 for them, too.

Yeah, it is really difficult if you don't know the matchup, though that's for sure.

Tbh, I don't know what I would say it. The matchup is strange... I feel like GnW if he can get in ZSS face he can do well, but viceversa. If she can get into GnWs face she'll do well. I guess it's just a back and forth motion. I know the matchup, but I can't really explain it. I just know I hated it for awhile.

A2ZOMG · Sep 25, 2010

Playing against ZSS requires you to powershield (her specials and if possible her B-air) and to punish oos very consistently. She definitely requires a learning curve to play against if they know how to be tricky and hit you with options you don't know exist.

Also I don't understand how to edgeguard her, but I believe it's important.

Mr. Escalator · Sep 25, 2010

I don't have a problem with ZSS at all, playing a few here and there, and by the looks of it Vinnie has been able to deal with Snakeee (as well as Penta???). Either way, I thought only Zac was vocal with his hate of this matchup. That and Lucario, I believe. IC's are def. not 65:35 or worse. I would even be hesitant to say it's that bad with 5 starters (I assume all matchups to have at least 7 starters).

Sort of late, but good luck at that tournament.

A2ZOMG · Sep 26, 2010

Lucario is honestly easy, but SUPER tedious. If you get impatient against him, you probably will lose. In a sense, he's very reminiscent of Blanka from Street Fighter 4.

The premise of the matchup is really simple. Never run into his predictable walls/Aura Sphere, never let him forward roll for free, space away from his terrible shieldgrab, and edgeguard him. Especially since Lucario can't really challenge G&W in the air that well, G&W honestly shouldn't have trouble against Lucario statistically. He doesn't really have the tools to get in when you implement a solid turtle playstyle (any pun is completely unintentional) and his poor recovery leaves a big hole in his ability to survive.

Vinnie · Sep 26, 2010

I'm gonna main ICs now... I haven't actually had fun with G&W in like six months now, and ICs are really fun (and good). I'll probably use him for match-ups I like, and some counterpicks... but mainly ICs now.

Zac is G&W's last only hope

.

derkapalooza · Sep 26, 2010

this result screen made me lol, its from a tourney match i had yest. the marth is broly, a marth main from south tx.

Mr. Escalator · Sep 26, 2010

lol, awesome results screen : )

As for IC's being fun? I don't believe it.
First Hylian and now Vinnie. Ah well. We have Zac/kaak/Vex(?) still as heavy hitters. It's less impressive, but I think we can live.

It's not gonna help us out keeping ahead of weak Lucario/ZSS in the tier list by losing another good G&W, though.

PentaSalia · Sep 26, 2010

he's not quitting <,<,he's just saying that because he didn't do so well yesterday
same for me lol

oh well

Vinnie · Sep 26, 2010

Nah, Vex mains ICs now, too. (and like, Pit/Snake/MK/G&W/Dedede/etc)

A2ZOMG · Sep 26, 2010

Mr. Escalator said:
lol, awesome results screen : )

As for IC's being fun? I don't believe it.
First Hylian and now Vinnie. Ah well. We have Zac/kaak/Vex(?) still as heavy hitters. It's less impressive, but I think we can live.

It's not gonna help us out keeping ahead of weak Lucario/ZSS in the tier list by losing another good G&W, though.

The ICs look fun when you realize that their options are not limited to infinite chaingrabs. Basically if you play like NinjaLink's ICs. =S

But then again NinjaLink is insanely technical and just insane in general.

Mr.Jake and Skate · Sep 27, 2010

This means i need to stop ****ing up and improve then.

bearman96 · Sep 27, 2010

hey! i got a funny pic here!

btw, mr. g&w is awesome!

2-2 · Sep 27, 2010

overgamer · Sep 27, 2010

Mr.Jake and Skate said:
This means i need to stop ****ing up and improve then.

Easier said than done.

Noraa · Sep 28, 2010

Vinnie said:
I'm gonna main ICs now... I haven't actually had fun with G&W in like six months now, and ICs are really fun (and good). I'll probably use him for match-ups I like, and some counterpicks... but mainly ICs now.

Zac is G&W's last only hope .

People usually switch mains to characters there placing better with, not because of fun. I think people just use it as an excuse lol. Not saying you but alot of people who say that...

Valdens · Sep 28, 2010

It's okay everyone, I still main Game and Watch even if I don't go to tournaments! That means something, right?

UTDZac · Sep 28, 2010

Vinnie said:
I'm gonna main ICs now... I haven't actually had fun with G&W in like six months now, and ICs are really fun (and good). I'll probably use him for match-ups I like, and some counterpicks... but mainly ICs now.

Zac is G&W's last only hope .

So I'm trying to make it to VC8... but I need help.

See sig. Quoted so sig would show.

Hylian · Sep 28, 2010

UTDZac said:
So I'm trying to make it to VC8... but I need help.

See sig. Quoted so sig would show.

Go to the tournament in my sig!!!!!

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UTDZac · Sep 28, 2010

I cant go to your tourney cause I dont have any money >>

2-2 · Sep 28, 2010

Hylian said:
Go to the tournament in my sig!!!!!

<asjhdblajshfbljhsbgflhkjsbfljhsbflkjhbslkjhfblksejfsdfljhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhasjhdblajshfbljhsbgflhkjsbfljhsbflkjhbslkjhfblksejfsdfljhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhasjhdblajshfbljhsbgflhkjsbfljhsbflkjhbslkjhfblksejfsdfljhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhasjhdblajshfbljhsbgflhkjsbfljhsbflkjhbslkjhfblksejfsdfljhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhasjhdblajshfbljhsbgflhkjsbfljhsbflkjhbslkjhfblksejfsdfljhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I would love to go to that one but I'm going to Ni-Kakuto-Geemu that weekend. Closest and my birthday present.

turning 20 on the 3rd, still feel old :D

Splice · Sep 29, 2010

I met Mew2King today!

Jason is pretty good at this game... lol. I took the first stock off him in the one match we played today lol <3 He still ***** me hard with the other two though

He's so quick with Shuttle Loop! @_@

PentaSalia · Sep 29, 2010

Good stuff zac,i'll contribute!!!!

then i'll win it back in ditto MM's !!! muahahah:D

@ splice
all of them were 2stocks?=(

Mr.Jake and Skate · Sep 29, 2010

Splice he makes mk seem x10 faster than he already is lol.

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