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The Official Ike Video Critique Thread

theeboredone

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Guess I'll take a shot at this. First off, I lol at wifi...but okay.

Your first n-air that connected against him was...well, he should have shielded that. Way too predictable.

:13 why are you b-airing after you get hit? Lead to you getting hit by DA.

:30 kinda dumb to aether back on stage when he's charging QD

:43 there are better ways to gimp Ike's aether...learn them depending on the situation. Most common used moves are, F-air and Bair. If you wanna get fancy, D-air and DA.

:48 dumb QD move...don't do that.

:53 try to do more retreat b-airs instead of going into your opponent with them

That was really ******** of him to counter you off stage...again, a good Ike would just gimp you with the moves listed above.

1:20 if you do your b-air right, you can go into a turn around jab immediately.

Becareful when playing off stage aether games, that counter could have easily sent you under the SV stage and gimped you. He also messed up on reverse aethering you which could have killed you as well.

1:45 if his F-smash ain't gonna hit you, what makes you think yours is?

2:00 use Air dodge to momentum cancel instead of b-air.

2:04 after he whiffed that f-smash, you should have done an aether or up-air for more damage.

2:08 speaking of up-air...don't do that, that's a recipe for getting gimped even if you could grab the edge.

Overall, your move choice is kinda dumb and you need to work on spacing and using more save moves (n-air instead of QD for example).
 

theeboredone

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqdMh_vLzBI

I'm the Ike, obviously. What can I do better with him? Any habits I should remove?
Pardon the double post guys, but I feel obliged to critique this since NO ONE ELSE will.

In the beginning, I know you didn't get hit by it, but don't try to spot dodge Marth's dancing blade. If he had continued it, you would have gotten hurt.

Unfortunate SD in the beginning. That's wifi for you. Pro tip, don't keep mashing jab around the edge, be self conscious about it.

:33 random counter? Uh...why? Don't do that lol.

:47 you should have known F-smash wasn't gonna work from where you were...up-smash would have sufficed. Plus you hit your partner.

1:01 you hit him with it, but there is no point doing an F-smash on the very tip of the edge...I mean..you're not gonna hit anybody with that often. Better options are retreating f-air or upsmash.

1:18 that QD was unnecessary, Lucario should have canceled his charge and grabbed you or something.

1:32 in Doubles, you always have to be aware of what's happening to your partner. Because you kept holding your up-smash charge pointlessly, your partner suffered, and then you got punished as well.

1:58 solid read on gimping Lucario, btu I think a smart Lucario would have clung to the lower portion of the edge.

2:28 f-smash was not gonna work there...either should have up-aired him on the way down or turn around and jab.

3:02 you were doing a great job stock tanking, DI'in and staying alive in general after your first stock. However, that's a dumb move to QD like that. Either air dodge the upcoming f-smash or grab the edge.

You got read pretty hard and took a lot of damage until you started hitting Marth. Sometimes it's best to retreat and restart if you are getting your butt handed to you. Also, pointless F-smash attempt on Marth. Don't be so desperate, stay calm.

Overall, nice match. Unfortunate you SD'ed in the beginning, and just for future notice, Marth can gimp Ike pretty hard, but either he doesn't have the knowledge or he doesn't wanna risk it on wifi (can be difficult). On top of that, Lucario can continuously use his projectile if you're trying to recover, so be wary of changing your aether timing off stage (super low, low, high, etc.)
 

•Col•

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Because I felt grimy after using MK on RC. It's my friend so we don't do real tournament style pick stage then character.
Ah, I was just wondering cuz Ike doesn't do too great on the first part of the stage... And even though he does a lot better on the 2nd part, Falco can become nearly untouchable if he plays right...
 

Nysyarc

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Thank you for critiquing those Bored, I'll update the OP right now while I have a minute. I'll also try and get back on track with this thread.

:034:
 

Blubolouis

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I know you guys prefer to critique videos where the Ike loses, but still, would you critique some in which I win?
Cause I think the vids I'm thinking of show the best I can do at the moment, and I'd rather have them critiqued than some in which I utterly fail x3

If yes, they'll be up in a week =3
 

Nysyarc

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As long as it's not you completely destroying someone (like a 2 stock or worse), then yes, your best is what we want to see even if it means you end up winning. We prefer to see a match where you lose while playing your best though, so that we can help you with that particular player/character match-up as well as giving general advice.

I'll critique almost anything though, so send me whatever you've got, lol.


:034:
 

Ussi

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When the Ike wins, usually you were doing it right. Meaning you don't really need a critique....

Unless you're like showing a full set which you lost in the end
 

Nysyarc

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Well, it means you were doing it better than the other player, not necessarily right. You can win by charging Dsmash at the ledge and having your opponent roll right into it. Doesn't mean you were doing it right, just that you're opponent was doing it very wrong, lol.

:248:
 

Teh Brettster

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gslq09J1ZRA
I don't really remember what happens and don't really remember just how I played, but I'm about 90% sure that I want these 3 games against Poltergust critiqued.
 

Nysyarc

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gslq09J1ZRA
I don't really remember what happens and don't really remember just how I played, but I'm about 90% sure that I want these 3 games against Poltergust critiqued.
I'll critique game 3 in-depth, cause it seemed like the one you had the most trouble with, albeit one of your deaths was an SD. Maybe someone else can critique the others but I don't think match 2 needs critique. LolJapes. Alright, let's begin.

7:54 - Early on against Yoshi you should be very wary of the pivot grab, so try to approach more on the ground, ready to spot-dodge, until you know what he wants to do.

8:02 - Your aggressiveness was clearly getting a little predictable here, after you ate the Usmash it would have been safer to land farther away and maybe try for some Jabs.

8:08 - Although full-hop or double-jump Fair in that situation is relatively safe, you knew from the previous matches that he never used his double-jump right away after being sent off-stage. Hold your ground on the stage and se what he does instead, you can always punish an early double-jump with a grab or Jabs if he air-dodges.

8:10 - Bad idea at such a low percent, high risk and low reward on the Usmash. May be better to just get far away and let him back up when he's planking like that.

8:35 - It can be difficult to remember in the heat of the moment but you would have been better served with a ledge-drop double jump there, followed by Jabs to punish his air-dodge. Be especially careful with how you choose to get back from the ledge over 100%.

9:37 - Yah... QD recovery is really only usable when your opponent is nowhere near you at all. A KO like that just sucks for momentum.

10:41 - Holding a shield on against Yoshi will almost never work, 90% of the time he'll go for a grab or a neutral B.

10:43 - Counter? I dunno... you'd either pointlessly counter an egg and then likely get punished, or just get punished, luckily neither happened though.

10:50 - That lip sucks; along with lack of platforms it's why I always ban FD in tourney... unless I'm up against a Ganon or something.

Like I said with Bored, I can't help too much with the Yoshi MU in particular since I'm unfamiliar with it myself, but it seems like hanging out near the ledge when he's planking is generally a bad idea. You took a good ~15% of unnecessary damage each time you tried to read his get-up and he chose to just plank instead. I think just staying near the center of the stage and baiting him up would be better... although that would be more effective on a stage that isn't FD.

Your spacing was good for the most part and I liked your use of pivot-grabs, since they worked. You Jab canceled at all the right moments too and managed to finish off each Jab combo for a solid amount of damage, which is very important. In that last match your main issue seemed to be finding an opening to KO. Part of the problem is that a good Yoshi is very hard to edge-guard because of eggs. You can try jumping off-stage a bit below them to bait an AD and punish with a Bair/Uair but otherwise you pretty much are going to have to play it safe on-stage and rely on a read.


:248:
 

Teh Brettster

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Wow, didn't realize I SDed twice that match. Someone critique the first one. Second one doesn't need a critique, as it is me 2-stocking the opponent. I don't require one of those minute-second-specific critiques, just general things people notice.
 

san.

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Remember that ftilt goes through eggs, so it may aid against a yoshi on the ledge if he doesn't snap correctly. All I know about yoshi is to just expect the spot dodge and grab. If yoshi shields, keep jabbing, because it'll be easier to follow up what yoshi's going to try to do next. Most of the rest Nys got.
 

Nysyarc

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Well I actually found a video from my first Tournament I was able to go to back in August I realize I did several very stupid and bad things but I might as well get it critiqued.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lm54aESzg0
Sorry I didn't notice this until now, not sure why I'm not getting notices for updates to this thread. I'll PM you or something to let you know I've done the critique.

Wow... that first match isn't really worth critiquing since it's... well. Short. Very short. But I'll critique it anyways. I'll do both matches, so here's the first:

0:00 - You know Falco is going to come out shooting lasers so work on your powershielding ability; it just takes practice and timing.

0:02 - The one thing in your head when you're below 50% in this match-up should be "Don't Get Grabbed!". Space Nairs very carefully, use your Jab at maximum range and otherwise try to predict when he'll go for the grab and spot-dodge. Just don't get grabbed.

0:12 - You have to be aware of and ready for those kinds of situations. I don't really know how you ended up inputting a sideB there but clearly you weren't expecting to be it out of Aether. When you are hit out of Aether by anything, do not be so quick to try and QD back to the ledge.

0:15 - Just a quick tip but when you fall out of the halo like that, there's no need to set yourself away from your opponent. Make use of that invincibility time and close the gap.

0:18 - Try not to roll at all, especially not right into him, rely more on your shield when dealing with lasers.

0:25 - You could definitely have survived that at the % you were at; use the control stick (with tap jump on) to double-jump after being spiked instead of a jump button. It allows you to meteor cancel earlier if you mash the control stick instead of a jump button.

0:32 - Right there you had a very large opening to start Jabbing him, after his last laser hit and before he grabbed you. It is very important as an Ike player to be able to recognize every situation where you can sneak in a Jab, and take every opportunity you get.

0:39 - It seems like you pulled away from the stage there at the last second, because I was sure you would grab the ledge. Practice recovering backwards from under the stage like that on BF and SV to get the hang of how much you have to move the control stick backwards or forwards to adjust to the ledge.

And now I'll just point out a few things in the second match:

0:57 - No offense, but you really need to work on your reaction time, lol. That Dair came way too late and it's no good trying to spike Falco out of his sideB with Dair anyways. You'd be better off going down near the water's surface and trying to snare him in an Aetherspike first.

1:05 - Don't land on the stage with Aether unless you have someone caught in it to do some extra damage. If they are avoiding or shielding it, always grab the ledge.

1:20 - You have water beneath you, so you don't have to charge QD, that's just going to get you punished. Instead, focus on fast-fall air-dodging the bulk of the lasers to minimize the damage you take.

1:23 - You were Ike, and you were directly below your opponent in the water, so there's no excuse for what happened here. Right when he was at the peak of his jump you should have immediately thought of the one tool that makes Ike so dangerous in the water: Aether. Jump out of the water just enough to use Aether and drag your opponent back to the water with you, then proceed to keep them there with Dairs.

1:33 - You definitely need to stop jumping right at him when you use Fair; after throwing out the Fair make sure you retreat before you land so he can't get an easy grab/whatever else he wants on you.

2:54 - Don't roll away from him so much, you need to stay at a fairly close range so you don't eat lasers all day and you can get some Jabs in.

2:57 - That shouldn't really have worked; try to refrain from using Dair into the ground, it's a really bad idea in basically any situation. If you're falling from above your opponent, use an Nair, Fair, Uair or Bair instead depending on the situation. But never a Dair.

3:10 - Even at 190%, that Dash Attack shouldn't have KOd you. Make sure to DI properly by bending your trajectory (if you're sent flying up, like in this case, hold your control stick left or right as you're hit; if you're sent flying sideways, hold your control stick up), and momentum cancel accordingly (here you air-dodged, but that is only good for stopping horizontal momentum when followed by a double-jump; to stop vertical momentum, use any aerial attack and fast-fall at the same time, the easiest way is to just manually input a Dair).

So in summary, you've got a lot to work on, lol. There's not much I can actually say as sort of a general statement, so just review everything I went over in the points above and start practicing. If you'd like clarification on anything that I've gone over, please let me know and I'd be happy to elaborate for you.


:248:
 

Rangerike

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I think I'll post some videos of myself tomorrow. Thing is they will be crappy quality
 

Nysyarc

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Quality doesn't matter too much as long as I can tell what's going on. Feel free to post vids here anytime and I (or occasionally someone else) will critique them!

:248:
 

Ussi

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crappy = domination throughout the entire match

Can't critique that, if you get 3 stocked, well, you clearly need more than a critique.
 

Nysyarc

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I think I know what may have happened: he grabbed you with momentum towards the ledge (the animation is definitely MK's grab) and slipped off of it, dealing 3% damage to you on the release and then immediately footstooled you to cause the downed state and launch himself so high.

As for a critique... I so tired, lol. Possibly tomorrow if I have time between studying.


:248:
 

Watkins

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I generally know what lost that match, a few spacing errors and me repeatedly trying to upsmash the best air dodge in the game.

What I'd be really interested in is any tips that other Ike's may know about the matchup. For instance, pivot grab was a huge boost in my ability to play the matchup, as MK can efficiently punish of Ike's normal routine aerial punishes.
 

theeboredone

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I don't know. I saw you pivot grabbing too much, and the whif got you punished hard. Nothing against that MK, but I would be waiting for you to pull that stunt, only to rush in and punish you. I prefer N-air and jab, since they are safer.
 

Watkins

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I prefer N-air and jab, since they are safer.

That's actually not true at all, and that thinking is why I believe most Ike's lose to MK. It requires a matchup specific strategy, as you can't simply space with aerials like every other matchup because of MK's top class ground speed and grab game.

If nair hits his shield (even perfectly spaced), he can tilt you out of it, grab you, or he can loop you (EASILY); many ways putting Ike into the place he doesn't want to be (above MK). If Nair doesn't hit his shield, it's fairly easy for him to time a dash attack or shieldgrab before you can jab or outspace you with fair.

Even if you hit with nair, unless it's at low percents you have no real follow ups as MK can simply fly away, or get to the ledge, or nado, or easily air dodge past you to switch the position. High risk for little reward.



I believe the key to the matchup is staying on the ground as much as possible.




That being said, said play revolves around proper pivot grabbing. Done far enough away, it's an entirely safe option and stuffs the quick grabs and dash attacks that are half of MKs ground game and advantages on Ike.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPeHWWV2X8w



Since nobody has any tips, I'll review the concept myself by bouncing ideas off you guys for maximum brainstorming. For the purposes of using the video (critiquing myself I guess rofl), I'll point out its uses in it. I'm aware that I overused it for the sake of testing its application, but the amount of times it paid off or went unpunished says something for itself.

Examples of punished (aka poorly spaced) PGs:

0:41 (MK was way too close, that distance is to MK's advantage so I should have ran further)
2:24 (too close again, but doing it twice in a row was a called mixup.) Only twice in the whole video, neat.


Excellent PGs:

0:06: Let :dazwa: know it was jam time.

0:50. Most players know about nair to bair, but PG adds an extra option to add to the end of the chain which covers the bair that people often try to punish (Ike landing facing away).

1:29 PG counters air dodging to the ground perfectly btw.

1:43 I called the approach, but was too far. Still, my cooldown was faster and I got a free jab, always nice.



The bottom guideline I've found however, is that if you initiate the PG outside of MK's ftilt range, it's unpunishable and the only thing you lose is ground. Meanwhile, if you called the MK's running grab or dash attack, he gets 10%+ (<3 Ike pummel). If you have ground to spare, use it.

It's incredibly quick, and the range and hitbox window are deceptive. When used properly, there's no way for MK to punish it in time as you'll already be facing the direction to jab right away. What makes it so amazing is that it's basically an unpunishable version of sidedodge for dealing with grabs, which is an amazing gift.

It actually plays right into the Ike's hands when MK tries to bait to punish it by dashing in, as a pivot grab easily turns into another pivot grab which stuffs the approach. Happens all the time, and it's hilarious.


The threat of being pivot grabbed will consistently make MK's hesitate to approach on the ground or even follow up. Running up to Ike and shielding is no longer an instant win, and many will be tempted to try a more aerial approach to which Ike has far more tools to deal with (bair, fair, utilt, aether). All great things to happen for Ike, and makes the matchup playable.



And oh man, Ike's have got to stop running around so much. WALK, it's the perfect mixup to just spamming run and shield.


Edit: On a side note, PG also works great on Snake when you're right outside his ftilt range, as he'll often try to mortar dash away.
 

Watkins

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Since I kinda hijacked your spotlight, I'll give some tips.

1. Stop double jumping over the stage so much, it cuts out over half your options and there few things easier to punish than a double jump nair.

2. Take your time, no need to cut up grenades. Running itself puts you as a disadvantage, as you can no longer jab or tilt (which sucks when Snake mortar dashes at you). Try walking more when possible.

3. Make sure you're in jab range when you stop to jab, Snake won't let you get away with poor spacing.

4. Air dodging into Snake is rarely a good idea, as with other characters.

5. Try to read his nadebouncing when you're below him, and make sure you know how ridiculous your up airs hitboxes are.

6. Bair when Snake is behind you, don't spam roll.

But the biggest advice I could give that shines above all the others is to stop with the predictable aerial approaches, mix them up with more ground approaches. Fair and Nair are pretty unsafe on block against characters like Snake, so stop consistently attacking his shield.

You can't rely on the opponent to be dumb and drop his shield when you're in the air when all you do is jump at him and aerial.
 

-RedX-

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If nair hits his shield (even perfectly spaced), he can tilt you out of it, grab you, or he can loop you (EASILY); many ways putting Ike into the place he doesn't want to be (above MK).
Are you sure about tilt? I figured with shield stun+drop, Ike could probably shield/retreat(possibly with a turn-around SH Bair to punish Ftilt whiff)/roll/spotdodge. Spaced Nair shouldn't be grab-able either. >.>
Even if you hit with nair, unless it's at low percents you have no real follow ups as MK can simply fly away, or get to the ledge, or nado, or easily air dodge past you to switch the position. High risk for little reward.
Usually when I hit MK with a Nair or get him in the air in general, I would try to make him use up as many jumps with empty hops/aerials. MK ends up with like 1 or 2 options trying to land. (lolnado) Situation doesn't happen quite often for me though. =/
The ledge is, imo, one of the best positions to put MK at. (if he doesn't have a lead of course)
Ike has range+transcendent priority on aerials to beat out MK's ledge options when he's trying to get back, especially the common ledge-drop->nado. If he shields Ike's aerials(or anything really) at the ledge, he's pushed back and the situation is reset. I can't seem to punish ledge-drop->airdodge for whatever reason. -.-


That being said, said play revolves around proper pivot grabbing. Done far enough away, it's an entirely safe option and stuffs the quick grabs and dash attacks that are half of MKs ground game and advantages on Ike.

It actually plays right into the Ike's hands when MK tries to bait to punish it by dashing in, as a pivot grab easily turns into another pivot grab which stuffs the approach. Happens all the time, and it's hilarious.
*thumbs up*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtpDNF7k9Qs#t=2m16s

It's not MK but Fox has a similar dash speed to him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94IOX5du18#t=1m09s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94IOX5du18#t=1m57s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94IOX5du18#t=2m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94IOX5du18#t=2m42s

Basically, I agree with pretty much everything you've listed about pivot grabbing.
 

theeboredone

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If nair hits his shield (even perfectly spaced), he can tilt you out of it, grab you, or he can loop you (EASILY); many ways putting Ike into the place he doesn't want to be (above MK). If Nair doesn't hit his shield, it's fairly easy for him to time a dash attack or shieldgrab before you can jab or outspace you with fair.
I have never been tilted or looped ever by spacing n-air or b-air. There is little time to react during these attacks, and the shield stun (unless p-shielded) is a bonus. Ike comes down fast enough to jab immediately if they want to try and run at us again. But I do agree with you that f-air is one of the worst options to use vs MK.

Even if you hit with nair, unless it's at low percents you have no real follow ups as MK can simply fly away, or get to the ledge, or nado, or easily air dodge past you to switch the position. High risk for little reward.
And a back throw has options even at high percents? Other then dash attack, you're not going to punish MK much after the throw. Like Red say, count the jumps either way, and you'll be fine.



I believe the key to the matchup is staying on the ground as much as possible.
For sure.

That being said, said play revolves around proper pivot grabbing. Done far enough away, it's an entirely safe option and stuffs the quick grabs and dash attacks that are half of MKs ground game and advantages on Ike.
Pivot grabbing is way too predictable in my opinion. Yes it can be seen as a surprise when the opponent rushes at you only for you to pivot grab, however it can become very predictable. Against speedy characters like MK or Sonic, if they are pressuring you, you may not even have time to pivot grab. Also, if you do whif the pivot grab, you are easily in for a world of hurt. You honestly think any good MK will be pivot grabbed that much? That MK was an embarrassment. Ike doesn't have the best grab range so timing is very critical to that component as well.




The bottom guideline I've found however, is that if you initiate the PG outside of MK's ftilt range, it's unpunishable and the only thing you lose is ground. Meanwhile, if you called the MK's running grab or dash attack, he gets 10%+ (<3 Ike pummel). If you have ground to spare, use it.
I didn't know MK's only approach on the ground was dash attack and grab...gee whiz. I must've missed the section on short hop aerials, spot dodging, and what not.

It's incredibly quick, and the range and hitbox window are deceptive. When used properly, there's no way for MK to punish it in time as you'll already be facing the direction to jab right away. What makes it so amazing is that it's basically an unpunishable version of sidedodge for dealing with grabs, which is an amazing gift.
When used properly? N-Air is unpunishable if used properly. D-air is a good killing move when used properly. F-smash works wonders when used properly. See what I did there? It's impossible to make every move applied perfectly, and there will be error. Now you can say that the risk and reward for PV is less than other moves, but I still think it's easy to read and punish.



The threat of being pivot grabbed will consistently make MK's hesitate to approach on the ground or even follow up. Running up to Ike and shielding is no longer an instant win, and many will be tempted to try a more aerial approach to which Ike has far more tools to deal with (bair, fair, utilt, aether). All great things to happen for Ike, and makes the matchup playable.
It's good to know we have another option, but MK can simply run and spot dodge if they want, leaving us open. Oh but wait, then that means we can sit there and jab...oh but what if they shield it? Yeah, it makes for a 50-50 game perhaps, rather then something in MK's favor when it comes to that part of the match, but you are still ignoring MK's short hop approaches. On paper, it's good, but in application, timing your pivot grabs correctly is tougher then it looks. I'll definitely look to incorporate it vs speedy characters, but if we're looking simply at damage output vs MK, jab is better.

Edit: Red, in all those examples you listed, you could have just jabbed...
 

san.

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Nair and jabs aren't as effective vs characters who outrange nair. Idk about pivot grabs vs MK, but if you get a grab, you need to get the bthrow to buffered dash attack down or there will be no point in hunting for the grabs.

MKs who dash at you (type to get pivot grabbed) are usually easy and don't know the matchup that much anyways, though.
 

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Edit: Red, in all those examples you listed, you could have just jabbed...
What if the other guy ran up with a shield? :l
My jabs have been getting shield-grabbed a few times lately.
I'm not a fan of jabbing characters running towards unless it was initial-dash distance.
I still think MK is very homo though.
 

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What I would like to see more is punishing those nados more often =p
 

theeboredone

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What if the other guy ran up with a shield? :l
My jabs have been getting shield-grabbed a few times lately.
I'm not a fan of jabbing characters running towards unless it was initial-dash distance.
I still think MK is very homo though.
But if you're worried about shield grabbing you, you can spot dodge and jab him >_>...
 

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Then the other guy could just hold shield until I spotdodge and punish with a grab OoS or whatever they have that's fast enough OoS.
But I could also roll/jump/retreat/etc. Seems like a rock-paper-scissor situation to me when fishing for grabs/jabs. lol
 

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It usually is a guessing game. I will say this again. Fish for grabs, and you better be getting that ~20-83 bthrow dash attack or else there's no point to getting the grabs! =D
 

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If it's MK, air release->dash attack is free. On SV platform, it could lead to some pretty stuff with platform canceling.
 

theeboredone

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Then the other guy could just hold shield until I spotdodge and punish with a grab OoS or whatever they have that's fast enough OoS.
But I could also roll/jump/retreat/etc. Seems like a rock-paper-scissor situation to me when fishing for grabs/jabs. lol
Yeah, that's been my point all along. I hate it when people say "X" move is the best approach. Especially for Ike. There is a lot of guessing involved, and it comes down to your opponent's playstyle. So for example, all three times, you could have jabbed that Fox player. However, if he dash shielded at you, you could have simply grabbed or pivot grabbed him.
 
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