Creation of BBR Ruleset Committee; Brawl Nationals Agree to Same Stagelist! New TO's!

Suspect · Dec 1, 2010

Espy Kasrani said:
Maybe he's thinking of uh...uhhhh....Suspect? :<
Who else has a name with "Su" in it?

Susan

Luxor · Dec 1, 2010

I should have made that list. I need to share my inflammatory liberal opinions some more, obviously.

Life · Dec 1, 2010

Thank you Pierce, but....

While it's pretty obvious by this point I'm not getting anyone to come around, really Nap? You just told AN ENTIRE SIDE OF A DEBATE to go kill themselves. You've potentially just invoked horrible memories in any smashers who knew a suicide. Shame. On. You.

I will go away if one of the following things happen:

1. The discussions that led to this stagelist are released to the public. All of them. Part of the reason the recommended ruleset failed to take hold is because the BBR is opaque, no?
2. I am forced to stop, either because this thread gets closed or because I am banned for "trolling". If it's the former, fine and dandy, we'll just have to see where the BRC goes from there. If I am banned because I lose my temper and did something that deserved it, fine. If I am banned for speaking my mind, in a way that does not violate SWF's terms of use... let the reader finish the sentence. (In retrospect, this could be viewed as a veiled threat. I will assure you now it is not one.)

And unity is still overrated <_<

Espy Rose · Dec 1, 2010

Inferiority, you DO know that all they could do is post a thread with this reasoning for the stages:

"Because we felt like it."

-and get away with it, right? If they feel like the stages they've chosen are right, and a majority feels that the stages they've chosen are right (and participate in tournaments with those stages), then that's that.

SuSa · Dec 1, 2010

Ding ding ding.

Espy wins the thread.

Hell, they don't even have to say "because we felt like it"

Albert. · Dec 1, 2010

Pierce7d said:
Okay, so for about the past week or so, I was on vacation, which is why such a large level of flaming, trolling, etc was tolerated up until this point.

Oh Pierce, I didn't know you were the only moderator on this website

That's awesome

Espy Rose · Dec 1, 2010

SuSa said:
Ding ding ding.

Espy wins the thread.

Hell, they don't even have to say "because we felt like it"

True.

Really, all this thread essentially is, is those 5 TOs making an announcement, using AZ as a megaphone.

That's all it was. An announcement. All of these arguments, in this announcement thread, about stage legality and whatnot is just meaningless hodgepodge.

SuSa · Dec 1, 2010

In essence it just lets local TO's know:

If you want to prepare for every (currently known) national for next year. You will adopt this stage list:
*gives stage list*

Kthxbai.

Which I think was pretty cool. Let's TO's know to use that stage list. Rather forces them too in a way. I feel unity is worth that, especially due to nationals.

We're testing who is the most skilled at rules we agree too. Well if I have a few months to try and learn Distant Planet because some regional is using it.. and it's ONLY that regional (which I'm traveling to from OoS) so it's only really that REGIONS local TO's running that stage. I'm going to be at a disadvantage, and I may not place well.

All because the community can't agree upon a standard. I don't have as well as a shot of placing.

/that's why unity is important people. Just because YOU don't travel doesn't mean it's overrated.

Xyro77 · Dec 2, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Xyro and AZ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVEvg4jtGlk

Name searching "xyro" to this song^ is a phenomenal experience. Do it again, please!

Budget Player Cadet_ · Dec 2, 2010

SuSa said:
In essence it just lets local TO's know:

If you want to prepare for every (currently known) national for next year. You will adopt this stage list:
*gives stage list*

Kthxbai.

Which I think was pretty cool. Let's TO's know to use that stage list. Rather forces them too in a way. I feel unity is worth that, especially due to nationals.

We're testing who is the most skilled at rules we agree too. Well if I have a few months to try and learn Distant Planet because some regional is using it.. and it's ONLY that regional (which I'm traveling to from OoS) so it's only really that REGIONS local TO's running that stage. I'm going to be at a disadvantage, and I may not place well.

All because the community can't agree upon a standard. I don't have as well as a shot of placing.

/that's why unity is important people. Just because YOU don't travel doesn't mean it's overrated.

I just thought I'd take the moment here to say: "GET BETTER NOOB". Seriously, this is about as legit as johns from someone who comes from a region that bans MK and has to suddenly learn the MK matchup to compete OOS. Or worse, a european melee player like Armada, who has to completely relearn the game.

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

I'm unable to play on the stage. If my region bans MK that's my region limiting me. My region should get better and unban MK. Just like my region should get better and unban the stage. I have little-to-no influence unless I become a major TO in my region and run things my way.

Which to a certain extent totally screws over the community - when you decide to add limits or vast differences amongst the community.

So what if your community has Distant Planet legal and it's ALWAYS picked. The moment you go OoS and can't play on your favorite and bestest stage what happens?

Oh right. You get wrecked.

It works both ways. Having TOO MUCH legal can **** you over too, while having less just means "Win Game1 so you can play on a stage you know Game3".

/unity > disunity

Orion* · Dec 2, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Large wall of text

while you continue to think that, enjoy getting better at a far slower pace than you could be.

Overswarm said:
I know how to space. >:[

10warios

umad

...but yeah warios pretty homo

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
See, a lot of people like to go for this whole "we tested it and deemed it banworthy back in '08" idea. Snake was considered the best, DDD one of the best, chars in the game around '08. Think about that for a moment. We SUCKED at brawl back then! We were awful! Hell, even 2009, where not everyone (read: nobody except ally) had upped their game to deal with MK, and nobody had upped their game to **** good snakes.

arent you the person who said player skill has nothing to do w/ analyzing stages

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
The analogy I'm trying to draw attention to is the simple factor that when people suck, **** changes.

maybe if you got better your view on PTAD would change also

Omni said:
So you are comparing stage analysis with character metagame growth and match-up knowledge.

It's a bad comparison.

Analyzing a stage is no where near as in-depth as evolving a character's metagame and expanding their character match-up ability.

Our level of skill has nothing to do with our ability to analyze a stage and determine if it's worth having in our stage list set. Especially since we had Melee as a precedent to help aid in that process.

@AZ: I looooooooved Skyworld. So funny.

****

swordgard said:
Why did I never see anything nearly as detailed as razieks analysis about these stages?

are you expecting the average person to write that much about... garbage *** stages. let alone care that much LOL.

raziek is like one in a million people i will give him that.

vVv Rapture said:
Just saying, but if I was a TO and, at my tournament, five people out of the eventual 100 entrants came up to me and said that Distant Planet is competitive and should be added to the stage list because of that, I'd tell them they are SOL.

Seriously, it's really not that big of a deal. I haven't heard of a time of someone not attending a tournament because Japes is banned. Would it be nice if Japes was legal? Sure. I love that stage. But the world doesn't end if Japes doesn't show up on a tournament's stagelist.

The minority has every right to voice their opinion, as they have. But this is becoming extremely circular, because, again, you're all repeating your same points over and over and have not budged since this topic has started.

You will not get anywhere doing that.

your posts have been pretty ****

ADHD said:
If you haven't realized it already, you and the same repeated 5 people are the only ones that do like it. We're not pushing it on others when you and a minority are the ones pushing what we don't like on us.

LOL *waits for **** storm*

swordgard said:
No, we use argumentation. You use a fallacy. Thats the major difference.

see this is some big *** words here, and if i try to comprehend them and respond i will have to see More big *** words, and most likely walls of text

napZzz said:
the few group of "chosen ones" seem to always be right just because they can write bigger walls of texts than we do and claim how they have superior logic

this

Omni said:
Use fallacy? What does this even mean?

LOL i had the same thought

TheTantalus said:
A fallacy to your mind.

inception

ADHD said:
This is why I classify you as a fool. There's only black and white.

adhd stepping those debate skills up

Ripple said:
if we're going to compromise please trade picto for japes

THIS

-Citrus said:
Sure glad i'm not part of the minority.... bahahaa

LOL

Yikarur said:
the Stagelist would be really good without Picto.

this

ADHD said:
Even I'll admit Picto might be worse than Japes. The only thing wrong with Picto is it's obstacles spawning into you randomly. Otherwise, it'd be alright.

pretty much

Pierce7d said:
Okay, so for about the past week or so, I was on vacation, which is why such a large level of flaming, trolling, etc was tolerated up until this point.

From this post forward, any posts flaming or trolling will receive an infraction without warning or hesitation.

Any discussion about the legality of stages can take place in a separate thread. If the BBR Ruleset committee wants the mass public's opinion on stages, they can make an additional thread to ask for it. Otherwise, stage discussion in this thread has proven to be too degenerate and unproductive, in addition to off-topic.

This is the first and last warning oolmonke

johns

Albert. said:
Oh Pierce, I didn't know you were the only moderator on this website

That's awesome

because this. YO MIC WHERE YOU @ LOL

but i love you anyway pierce.

but srsly this thread should have never been opened, bad insight from AZ. lock or move to casual section or make a thread where people can mindlessly debate

/back to name searching

Albert. · Dec 2, 2010

How did that post deserve a 2 point infraction, MR. PIERCE 7D?

Why?

K we get it Pierce either you're A) Amazing

which, given some your guides, is plausible, or

B) A giant caricature of yourself, constantly f***ing around with people and trolling with your endless snide boasting and self-aggrandizement, which, has been going on for YEARS now, as you know. Maybe You are aware of your less-than-godly skills but chose to carefully produce the illusion of such as one big JOKE, which you know, is actually kind of funny, SO, PROPS.

C ) Decently skilled at the game but woefully ignorant of the endless self-fellatio

So, let's go with option A or B, the benefit of the doubt, and just assume that you're cool.

SO I MADE a lil JOKE POST.

Your post, intentionally or not, made it seem like YOU are the most important freaking Mod on the whole site. "Oh I've been away! So... no more trolling, I TAKE THIS SO SERIOUSLY, Oh, and there are obviously NO OTHER MODS that could have been doing their jobs because either A) they don't exist, or B) I'm calling them out on their complacency by taking a stand."

Which I thought was funny

So I made a joke post.

Do you see my rationale? It's not like that little comment caused "forum disruption"

It's a thought out post with a tangible meaning and purpose, WHICH is more than I can say for HALF of the "intelligent discourse" up in here.

Alright so there's my reasoning. I that hope any of you that have read this far have enjoyed my garrulous writing style. Yes, that's a word.

Pierce I await a response from you that's on the level of this one.

rPSIvysaur · Dec 2, 2010

Stop. Just stop. He's being a stern moderator instead of a "cool mod". I've been without a computer for the past week or so, which is why I haven't been able to monitor this thread. Pierce is right to be infracting. You have been breaking forum policy by flaming and trolling and it is our job to prevent it. We have been too lax and now we're taking action. As soon as I get access to a computer, I will be strict on this thread. iTouch out.

TheTantalus · Dec 2, 2010

Albert. said:
Oh Pierce, I didn't know you were the only moderator on this website

That's awesome

This post was not worth 2 points pierce, sheesh

Omni · Dec 2, 2010

Pierce won't be responding to your post here, Albert. Take it to PM or Forum Support.

Everyone else stay on topic.

Ripple · Dec 2, 2010

Are-Sigh said:
Stop. Just stop. He's being a stern moderator instead of a "cool mod". I've been without a computer for the past week or so, which is why I haven't been able to monitor this thread. Pierce is right to be infracting. You have been breaking forum policy by flaming and trolling and it is our job to prevent it. We have been too lax and now we're taking action. As soon as I get access to a computer, I will be strict on this thread. iTouch out.

don't praise pierce when you could have easily alerted another mod to stop the spam. even if you can't be on a computer, you can obviously still post. send a PM to another mod to monitor the thread and things could have happened in a more frindly manner.

Omni said:
Pierce won't be responding to your post here, Albert. Take it to PM or Forum Support.

Everyone else stay on topic.

so with you being in here the whole time why did you not alert someone else as to the level of trolling so someone else would have been infracting the spam and trolling since you're obviously saying there was in fact these things going on since you did not object to pierces complaint?

I don't see how the level of discussion went from completely tolerable since omni gave NO WARNING that major trolling was going on (other than future) to completely intolerable in such a short amount of time.

/waits to be infracted for a legitimate concern

HelpR · Dec 2, 2010

Jeez guys seriously?

You guys were given warnings by pierce concerning this stuff. just drop it

The overall idea behind this is good. No one is being forced to adopt this outright, and if a TO wants, they can stray from this ruleset.

It already matches up with the ruleset of most regions, with 2 or 3 differences. This is a good effort, and has potential. We should try and support this idea, and help to mold it.

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

Those that don't pick it up may find themselves missing very important practice for next years nationals.

/locals usually adopt the national rule sets to practice for them... considering this is like 6 months and announced way in advance I expect many locals to adopt this stage list at the very least.

rPSIvysaur · Dec 2, 2010

SuSa, they only don't get the practice if they are conservative stage lists. Liberal stage lists don't have any problems.

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

You focus your practice on stages you won't end up using. Ever heard of the phrase "Spreading yourself too thin"?

Those who adopt the stage list exactly will have more chances to practice on the stages and prepare. Those who don't, won't. That simple.

UberMario · Dec 2, 2010

SuSa said:
You focus your practice on stages you won't end up using. Ever heard of the phrase "Spreading yourself too thin"?

It really doesn't take that much time to learn the stages, you know. Even a few friendlies on a stage is enough to figure out what are good strategies and what are not.

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

If it only takes a few friendlies - then why must testing for a stage legality be so intense? It should take nothing more than a few friendlies to see that the stage is unfit for competitive play.

/bad logic is bad

UberMario · Dec 2, 2010

You can play a few friendlies on Temple, does that mean it is fit for competitive play? No. Do you still learn about it? Yes. On "gray area" stages, it takes more than a few friendlies to determine what is fit/unfit for competitive play because some people percieve stages differently than others, and thus have different interpretations of what is a good or poor stage roster. However, that does not mean that you are going to spread yourself "too thin" by trying out or learning about new stages, for example, it only takes a bit of research and practice to realize that the cars on PTAD are predictable and easy to avoid, or how close (or rather not) you should be to a bomb block on Green Greens. (Or when a platform appears/disappears on Rainbow Cruise)

Also, part of the reason that stage legality is so intense is because it requires a party to persuade the majority of opposers that there is nothing wrong with a specific stage, as stage usage is heavily based on what is already used, rather than what is necessarily the most balanced. For example, Pictochat and Rainbow Cruise get a lot of usage because people are used to them, even though the latter is an imbalanced stage for the character roster and the former has a substantially higher luck-based factor than ANY other counterpick, IMO even stages like Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Port Town are more balanced than Picto, but because Pictochat became a "mainstay" much earlier than they did, it will continue to be popularly used until the majority try out some of the other counterpicks more.

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

You're implying you can learn everything about a stage based on a few friendlies. If that is true - I can easily tell if it is unfit for competitive play.

Keitaro · Dec 2, 2010

So these are the stages:

Battlefield
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon
Picto Chat
Rainbow Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
*One stage ban per player

But is there a set rule for starters and cps for it?

UberMario · Dec 2, 2010

@Susa: Learn everything you can about stage usage from a few friendlies? Definitely not, even stages like Smashville and Final Destination require more practice than that, BUT it should only take a few friendlies to learn the basic and more important factors in a stage, such as determining how long it takes the fire plumes to get to Norfair's platforms (along with the fixed trajectories), or how to play on the Ice/Flying modes in Pokemon Stadium 2. Smaller tactics, such as how to keep players in Delfino's water, come naturally with more gameplay involving those scenarios.

AlphaZealot · Dec 2, 2010

Correct Keitaro. At this time we haven't decided on which will be starters/counter picks and will be adding more TOs to the room before such a decision is made.

Keitaro · Dec 2, 2010

AlphaZealot said:
Correct Keitaro. At this time we haven't decided on which will be starters/counter picks and will be adding more TOs to the room before such a decision is made.

You can officially put me on board now :D

I'm using these stages for my upcoming tourney in January most likely. Made a poll but I'm sure they'll vote for this over my current ruleset.

BSP · Dec 2, 2010

Is this BBR going to be associated with this eventually, or has the name just not changed yet?

#HBC | Red Ryu · Dec 2, 2010

Ripple said:
don't praise pierce when you could have easily alerted another mod to stop the spam. even if you can't be on a computer, you can obviously still post. send a PM to another mod to monitor the thread and things could have happened in a more frindly manner.

so with you being in here the whole time why did you not alert someone else as to the level of trolling so someone else would have been infracting the spam and trolling since you're obviously saying there was in fact these things going on since you did not object to pierces complaint?

I don't see how the level of discussion went from completely tolerable since omni gave NO WARNING that major trolling was going on (other than future) to completely intolerable in such a short amount of time.

/waits to be infracted for a legitimate concern

I would have handed out infractions a long time ago if i had power here.

Instead I've been reporting every questionable post that has come up, like other mods have who aren't in charge of modding this place.

Also it is quite possible the mods or admins who do have power here weren't on at the time.

Espy Rose · Dec 2, 2010

I don't run many, many tournaments, but when I host smaller ones, I'll be sure to use this list.

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

AlphaZealot said:
Correct Keitaro. At this time we haven't decided on which will be starters/counter picks and will be adding more TOs to the room before such a decision is made.

I will agree with Hax when I say the following:

There should never be a seperation of starters and counter picks. If you are saying a stage is OK to play on - it is OK to play on on Game 1.

If you are saying it is to drastic and game-breaking to be played on Game 1. Then it is obviously not a stage worthy of competitive play.

My proof?

Apply this horrible logic to other things that could be.

Imagine banning MK... but only for game 1.
Imagine having a LGL.... but only for game 1.
Imagine banning DDD's standing infinite.... but only for game 1.

It's horrible logic. (Not that the above 3 bans are horrible logic without applying worse logic to them... but that's beside the point...)

swordgard · Dec 2, 2010

SuSa said:
I will agree with Hax when I say the following:

There should never be a seperation of starters and counter picks. If you are saying a stage is OK to play on - it is OK to play on on Game 1.

If you are saying it is to drastic and game-breaking to be played on Game 1. Then it is obviously not a stage worthy of competitive play.

My proof?

Apply this horrible logic to other things that could be.

Imagine banning MK... but only for game 1.
Imagine having a LGL.... but only for game 1.
Imagine banning DDD's standing infinite.... but only for game 1.

It's horrible logic. (Not that the above 3 bans are horrible logic without applying worse logic to them... but that's beside the point...)

Not proof, reasoning would be the better word.

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

I'm about to just add everyone who wants to argue semantics on my ignore list.

You know very, very damn well what I meant.

The concept is logically flawed. Saying a stage is unfit for gameplay then turning around and saying it's fine no more than 8 minutes later.

swordgard · Dec 2, 2010

SuSa said:
I'm about to just add everyone who wants to argue semantics on my ignore list.

You know very, very damn well what I meant.

The concept is logically flawed. Saying a stage is unfit for gameplay then turning around and saying it's fine no more than 8 minutes later.

When you pretend to be "debating" as to see who is right, then use terms like proof and keep on acting like you are always right, thats a contradiction, not semantics. Its just how it is. Add me on your ignore list, that will only prove how contradictory your statements about debating are.

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

Still not attacking the fact it's flawed reasoning.

If it's unfit for competitive play, it's unfit. Period.

You don't let me foul you AFTER half time. *rolls eyes*

Omni · Dec 2, 2010

It's not logically flawed, Susa. Stop using that term to justify a concept you believe that should be applied over another.

A starter stage and a counterpick stage do not suggest that one stage is OK to play on or that one is not OK to play on.

A starter stage leans towards a more neutral setting because static stages are generally more preferred than stages with more variables in them. Whether you agree or disagree with this approach is fine, but it is what it is and it's been what it is for a long time now. We're not going to stop applying this same philosophy because someone else thinks their own philosophy/idea is "superior". It's simply another approach that wasn't taken that COULD have been taken.

A starter stage suggest, "These are the types of stages we want available for the first round," while a counterpick stage suggest, "These are the type of stages we want available for rounds 2 and 3."

SuSa · Dec 2, 2010

You're saying it's not okay to play on. Then you bite your tongue and say okay you can play on it now after the first game.

Or, you can.. you know.. apply it across the board (which is a huge precedent for the reasoning to banning and limiting things)

Don't have a LGL, that's stupid. Only have it for games 2-3.
Banning DDD's standing infinites? Only have it for games 2-3.
Temple is pretty neutral compared to Pictochat. Actually, it's completely neutral - but circle camping. Oh well, allow it... but only for Game 2-3.

:troll:

Ghostbone · Dec 2, 2010

Except by having starter stages you're doing the exact opposite of having the first stage be the most neutral, you're arbitrarily giving some characters/play styles an advantage.

Edit: Aimed at Omni

Creation of BBR Ruleset Committee; Brawl Nationals Agree to Same Stagelist! New TO's!

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Smash Hero

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