Falcon Mind-Meld: A Captain Falcon Matchup Thread (now on: EDGEGUARDING))

Wenbobular · Dec 18, 2010

Loses to sweetspotted Firefox from below :|

DuckPimp · Dec 18, 2010

Pr0jecT said:
Not sure if this has been mentioned but when edgegaurding fox's who firefox onto the stage you can use invulnerability frames from a ledge hop knee to hit them OUT OF THE FIREFOX.

Hax does it all the time and I recently discovered that with proper timing you can edgegaurd fox with invulnerable reverse guaranteed knees all day.

yeah man, grab the edge to hog illusion, and if theyre going firefox, quickly renew invincibility and hit em. very nice

Zhenkai · Dec 22, 2010

I know from my post on the previous page there were %s for the fsmash and dsmash from uthrow with Falcon, depending on how the Fox DIs it of course. And from what I recall, around the 105-110ish% to 120-125ish% is near perfect for short-hop knees, while I know anything 130%+ is for full jump knees. Although then again, I know Falco weight and %s more than Fox, but just goin' with what I feel would be close to the proper %s.

Wenbobular · Dec 22, 2010

DuckPimp said:
yeah man, grab the edge to hog illusion, and if theyre going firefox, quickly renew invincibility and hit em. very nice

You still have to guess to timing I think
You also have to react to illusions that are slightly above the ledge, which I find really hard to do

DuckPimp · Jan 3, 2011

well i suppose you can get on the edge for the illusions, then immediately after ledgehop waveland in case they go for the stage. if they make it really obvious then it isnt too hard to react to, but if they just barely do it then covering all options is necessary with the renewed-invincibility-ledgehop-waveland>whatever.

lol this is a pretty complex procedure
perfect for a flowchart

Deleted member · Jan 3, 2011

regrab edge quick press back jump upair and if you don't hit them and they go for the edge the invincibility lets you regrab before the flame hits you

BigD!!! · Jan 3, 2011

up tilt is pretty good for for forward b's

do it so the heel will land just as they would finish the sweetspot, that will more or less cover any forward b cause it will hit higher too

then if they up b'd, you have time to try something against that too

s2j thats too crazy for me, i pick one option and make it guaranteed, covering multiple options too often results in making a mistake when you try to do 10 things and then they make it back

DuckPimp · Jan 3, 2011

yeah thats true, stick to occam's razor

so definitely utilt over dtilt?

BigD!!! · Jan 3, 2011

dtilt is probably easier to time and comes out quicker, so if you dont get there in time you could use dtilt, but i dont think it hits if they sweetspot nice and low

edgehogging is probably the best, but sometimes i feel like i wont make it and a nice easy utilt works alright, plus its easy to act afterwards if they up b

a lot of people who struggle with edgeguarding, in my experience, are trying to do too much, so my advice would be to actually look at them and try to figure out what theyre gonna do, then go ahead and make sure they die if youre right. from there, you start getting into the habits of making sure they die from 2 options you cover, and you realize what will kill them, which 2 options are legitimately coverable, and so on

covering 3 out of 4 options is useless if they take the 4th best option (such as, in most cases, up b'ing diagonally down towards the ledge)

Deleted member · Jan 4, 2011

BigD!!! said:
up tilt is pretty good for for forward b's

do it so the heel will land just as they would finish the sweetspot, that will more or less cover any forward b cause it will hit higher too

then if they up b'd, you have time to try something against that too

s2j thats too crazy for me, i pick one option and make it guaranteed, covering multiple options too often results in making a mistake when you try to do 10 things and then they make it back

thats true but sometimes there is no chance for them to live

but yeah my edgeguarding is fking terrible, just need to get somebody and convince them to recover into me all day

but too lazy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdYdhwvduaY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

watch at 1:32~

i also think its a decent trick since most will think you won't regrab the edge and go for it

might be too jank and unreliable though and only good vs falco

---

i think though i'm just gunna learn to predict i guess

Little England · Jan 7, 2011

s2j said:
i think though i'm just gunna learn to predict i guess

Don't do it Johnny! Grab the ledge. Hit the spacie if they are close. If they are far just wait...

If you see them upB double jump and regrab the ledge right away. You'll have invincibility for days and plenty of time to roll edgehog if they go into you. If they go on the stage that's also easy to react to. Watch for them to forward B into you, and just roll right when you see that flash. If they forward B on the stage **** them.

idunno, you're a crazy Falcon dude. Maybe I'm missing something. This works for me though. xD

BigD!!! · Jan 10, 2011

it depends on where they are

if theyre above the stage, they can go diagonally downwards toward the ledge, straight over, or upwards at an angle, and you wont have time to react to the difference

plus forward b messes it all up, you can hit them if youre sitting on the ledge and they decide to forward b over you but if they forward b right as you grab the ledge, you wont make it in time, forward b also messes up the going out there strategy

i do think that in some situations its possible to cover all of the options, but i think its more important to get yourself in the habit of killing them when youre right than it is to guarantee you land a hit

i think too many people underestimate how easy it is to tell when spacies are gonna up b downwards toward the ledge, especially after you hit them nice and high off the level

i watched that set though, i thought you did alright, the up b's you missed were situations where it seemed like you reasonably feared a forward b recovery

BigD!!! · Jan 10, 2011

im watching you vs lucky and it looks like youre just choking it up more than not knowing how to do it

utilt the wrong way, for example

one thing i would say is that, at least for me, i dont like utilting fire cause it usually just trades and then they make it back, if theyre coming from below and you know theyre gonna come over the edge i just back off then bair them, from there you know they dont have a jump so if theyre below like 80 you can jump out there and follow up the bair for free

Wenbobular · Jan 11, 2011

You only really know that they're going to come over the edge on Battlefield and Stadium though

Most other stages the Fox doesn't have to angle it at an angle that goes over the edge, it's just that most Foxes still blow at recovering

Is it possible to do a ledgehop Bair regrab that covers the straight at the ledge Firefox option? It'd be pretty beast if it could but I'm not sure if it does
Whenever I try I usually fail ~.~

Roneblaster · Jan 11, 2011

pretty sure u can ledgehop bair regrab.

Wenbobular · Jan 11, 2011

Can you do it to cover the horizontal Firefox is my question
It's amazing for covering all angles that aren't the horizontal Firefox but it just straight up loses to that

Deleted member · Jan 12, 2011

depends if u do it fast

if you do it fast you can regrab before fox grabs and u still have edge invincibility

but doing it too fast might be bad

Wenbobular · Jan 13, 2011

That functions the same as a ledgehop then xD
Although I guess that's probably what I should be doing anyways
Except in reality I should be trying to get weak knee -> upair because it covers way more options
B> aim

linkoninja · Jan 13, 2011

Maybe we can talk about Falcon vs Samus next?
I always tend to have trouble with that matchup.

DuckPimp · Jan 13, 2011

i s'pose we can do that

BigD!!! · Jan 14, 2011

wenbob i dont think you can ledgehop regrab bair and cover the straight into the ledge option

edit: tried it, maybe you can, but i cant do it consistently enough to where i'd try it and assume it would work

and also, on the "you dont know theyre gonna come over the ledge" thing, you'd have to time utilt differently if you think theyre gonna do the angle to not come over anyway, so you still gotta read it

best thing to do probably is grab the ledge ledgehop stomp to cover the most options if theyre going diagonally from below, unless youre thug enough to go down there and weak knee or dj uair them (you can do it pretty low and get back). but that allows for all sorts of meteor canceling and teching, so i usually just try to get them as they come over the ledge and if they do one of the shortened ones, next time i edgehog and then its a wild card from then on

Wenbobular · Jan 14, 2011

Good thing the only stage where it's easily doable on is FD haha
I'm pretty good at sweetspotting from below with Fox but it is HARD to do on Yoshi's and FoD, probably impossible to do on Stadium and Battlefield, and doable on Dreamland but is much more limited due the stage not being thick enough xD

You can get around sooo many onstage edgeguards with proper sweetspotting from below on FD though
Curse you Fox

DuckPimp · Jan 17, 2011

ok, how about a few words on tech-chasing?

Walt · Jan 17, 2011

Just meta-knowledge of peoples minds/tech-patterns: At low percents people tech in place more often so they can get back to fighting/moving. There is a mentality on tech-rolling that's it is running away from dying so people do it more at higher percents. Also if you hit someone where their body moves fast enough across the screen that the camera isn't quick enough to zoom out to where they are people tend to tech in place more than roll there also. Just tips for predicting, luckily Falcon is fast enough to just react to all tech movements instead of predicting but w/e.

Against Fox specifically if you are a little slow on having active frames out during the starting vulnerable frames 90% of the time Fox's will spotdodge/shine on wakeup so just bait these and hit them with move of choice. After you do this a couple times smart Fox's will shield so just grab.

Also Lucien says upthrow on fastfallers gives you more time to prepare options for tech-chasing than downthrow. I still mix it up sometimes because I swear people tech in place more on downthrow.

These are all habits I've noticed with the people I play against so don't take any of this as super maximum truth.

Windrose · Jan 20, 2011

What do you guys do after you throw someone for tech chasing? Some people I notice use wavedash out towards the person and react to tech, others dash once and then dash towards direction they teched....

Help me out =(

Metal Reeper · Jan 20, 2011

I agree with Walt. I Dthrow more because people tend to tech in place for some reason. People usually roll on Uthrow because if they feel that if they tech in place you'll have enough time to get to them so they usually just roll forward or away, and if they miss a tech, Dair>Whatever

You just need to predict and make notes of everything they do. You Dthrow them, they tech in place, take a note. If your unsure or not very confident in your tech-reading abilities I'm sure you can just Dthrow>Tech-chase>Dthrow.
Some players will always look for the best option
"Oh no, he Dthrow me and im almost towards the ledge, I don't wanna get gimped so im gonna tech towards the middle" Some think like that, while others think "I don't wanna tech towards the middle because that's where he is"
Everyone just has a different mindset when it comes to tech-chasing/being tech-chased. So just note what they do and make inferences.

Mew2king always covers the best option because he condiotoned himself to always find the best move and counter it, which is why he's so godly. But he never picks the obvious answer. And even if you do pick the obvious answer Mew2king has insane reaction speed, so you'll be dead either way

J_Noodles · Jan 20, 2011

Something that has gotten into a habit for me during tech chasing is wavedashing in place after d-throw/u-throw. I'm not sure if it has any use, but I react to tech rolls better.

Deleted member · Jan 20, 2011

wave dash in = guaranteed grab if they tech away tech in

if they Don't DI down-throw like a n00b then you can react to tech in place no tech (jab reset)

i personally would rather dash dance quick

Hax · Jan 22, 2011

wavedashing in is good cause the beginning of falcon's dash can overshoot/undershoot where the opponent techs. you often have to dashdance to move yourself slightly right/left to position yourself for the regrab/stomp/knee. if you wavedash you avoid this hassle

Windrose · Jan 24, 2011

What if they DI away and tech roll away? Is wave dashing in after down thrown still fast enough to get the regrab?

Mokumo · Jan 26, 2011

yes if you dash right after, but you dont have to wavedash if you KNOW that theyre teching away. wavedashing allows you to be versatile to chase either tech direction. overall i prefer dding

Windrose · Jan 29, 2011

Today when I was playing, I noticed that I wasn't able to get the regrab if the opponent DI away on the throw and techs away if I use wavedash after I dthrow and dash in the direction of their tech. They'd be able to spot dodge or jab/shine or w/e. before I can regrab.

I don't know if this is because I dashed too slowly or it's because wavedash is slower...but I don't have problems catching that tech (on reaction) using dd.

Bamesy · Jan 31, 2011

When Fox reaches around 50%, I tech chase the dthrows with dash attack if they tech to the middle of the stage.
If they DI in, jab reset>stomp/knee/whatever.
If they DI out, they're at the edge again and you're headed there already.

Usually that's when hoping they'll tech in place but don't so you're not ready to get the hit, and your DDing but regrabbing in the middle of the stage just means you're setting yourself up for me reads. DA cuts it down and it's tough to tech at the lowest knockdown %

I miss chases a lot by undershooting the aerial at the mid-roll area. Need to get used to momentum or something. I'm alright pivotting the aerial, but often there's not enough time to go far enough and it's too technical to pivot and go backwards in the air stomping LOL Bair is great against the spacies hax. :D

Nair too I guess s2j. ;D
lol

Mokumo · Feb 1, 2011

if fox or falco keeps f*cking spot dodging your tech chase grabs into a shine (a lot of people love doing this but the better people get at this game the less they spot dodge) you can bait it with an empty SH and if they spot dodge you have enough time to react to that and knee them while you're still in the air.

Scar · Feb 4, 2011

if they KEEP dodge in place shining you can just knee when you know you're too late

this works until they start rolling or shielding, i personally don't mind kneeing their shield though, i'm pretty sure falcon has the frame advantage there (jab will beat jumping out of shield and then pressure from there)

sorry to interrupt

Mokumo · Feb 5, 2011

uthrow -> dtilt -> misstech isai stomp ->(uair) knee only really works when fox/falco/falcon is at like 40ish% because they think their too low damage to expect the tilt. if you do it past 50% they easily have enough time to react so youll have to tech chase (or even regrab/do an aerial if theyre dum and don't di away from the dtilt).

just throwing that out there. i mean they can still tech it even if you do it at a good low %.

/bored

n0ne · Feb 6, 2011

Tech chasing with Falcon is sooo **** for comebacks.

This is how i techchase. 2 stocks down
Starts @ 2:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBR4aHc1JdI

0Room · Feb 12, 2011

Guys to be honest
Lazy Falcon *****

utilt for the win.

0Room · Feb 21, 2011

So do we need anything more on Fox, or can we move on?

DuckPimp · Feb 21, 2011

ive been a bit behind on the compilation of the advice, school johns

so idk what is missing atm

how about some percents

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