• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official BBR Tier List v5

Status
Not open for further replies.
-LzR-

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
Puff isn't tall, so she can be light, Puff is mobile, so being floaty isn't so bad, it's in fact one of her strengths. She also has a great gimping game for a lowtier and has a great recovery with all the jumps and pounds. She can also kill pretty early with a fresh fair offstage.
And Puff doesn't need much ground moves. A situational ftilt and utilt, a good DACUS and a really good grab for her size are enough. Zelda has smashes that are telegraphed and can be DI'd out of. And her jab is slow as hell too.
 
Psychoace

Psychoace

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
2,689
Location
Manliest city in Texas
Nestec said:
My apologies; I had a little fit. <3

But anyways, on this Captain Falcon business...

He definitely needs to be below Samus and Link, in my opinion. As I see it, the bottom 10 goes:

-PT
-Lucas
-Bowser
-Mario
-Samus
-Link
-Falcon/Zelda
-Falcon/Zelda
-Jigglypuff
-Ganon

I feel that Zelda and Falcon are just about interchangeable...

:green:
Click to expand...
I would like to know your thoughts about why you think Link is better than falcon.
 
smashkng

smashkng

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,742
Location
Malmö, Sweden
NNID
Smashsk
3DS FC
0318-7423-9293
SFP, lol at saying Falcon's recovery is better than average. Even Ganon can gimp him effectively. Good gimpers have little to no trouble gimping him or at least getting some damage on him offstage. His up b is 14 frames slow and it has no hitbox above him, and then side b, lol any aerial beats it.
 
M

Meru.

I like spicy food
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
3,835
Location
The Netherlands, sometimes Japan
NNID
Merudi
3DS FC
0963-1622-2801
Psychoace said:
What the **** happened while I was gone?

All this over little old me? You guys flatter me.

Anyway I messed up and didn't double check my post, I fixed it get over it..

As for Falcon's dash > shield I don't believe we have frame data for it, but it is one of our more common approaches used. I know his isn't the best, but it is definitely useful. Falcon rarely has trouble when it comes to being camped. I can run up to a Falco camping with lasers shield them and if I'm close enough I'll grab him. If I'm not I will either get behind him or set up with something else. I think if we can handle/get around Falco's lasers then most other projectiles aren't as troublesome. Dash > shield is probably our primary set up for grabs as well. I will see if we can get some of that data up in the near future.
Click to expand...
I highly, highly doubt that Falcon doesn't have trouble when it comes to being camped when you have such a moset. I won't doubt your Falco experience, however I find it unlikely he can't camp Falcon well. As a Peach player I can camp Falcon just fine... really fine. His moveset is terrible for approaching.

Shield approaching is an option, but... every character has that and Falcon OoS options aren't exactly great. Not to mention using shields as an approach has its own flaws as well.

:053:
 
Steam

Steam

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
6,322
Location
Hell, Colorado
zelda also has a projectlie and jiggz doesn't. just throwing that out there.

@yaay- peach is like one of falcon's worst matchups :/

peach's camping is waaaaay different from falcos so don't compare them thx.
 
M

Meru.

I like spicy food
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
3,835
Location
The Netherlands, sometimes Japan
NNID
Merudi
3DS FC
0963-1622-2801
Steam said:
zelda also has a projectlie and jiggz doesn't. just throwing that out there.

@yaay- peach is like one of falcon's worst matchups :/

peach's camping is waaaaay different from falcos so don't compare them thx.
Click to expand...
It was a response to

Psychoace said:
I think if we can handle/get around Falco's lasers then most other projectiles aren't as troublesome.
Click to expand...
******slap*

:052:
 
Pikabunz

Pikabunz

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
6,084
Location
San Antonio, TX
NNID
Pikabunz
3DS FC
1134-8730-8374
Ok, so I found this really easy and fast way to grab break. First of off, you need set your d-pad to anything that helps you grab break. I set mines to shield and jump. When you get grabbed all you gotta do is use your index finger to hold the control stick in a direction like down, then start rotating the d-pad with your thumb and rapidly hit the c-stick with your other thumb. The direction you're hitting the c-stick must be different than the direction you're holding the control stick. This alone will break out of grabs almost instantly. You don't even need to rotate the control stick, just holding it makes hitting the c-stick count as 3 inputs every time. Doing this method also leaves a lot of your fingers free to hit other buttons like L+R and the face buttons to break out even faster!

This is really effective against the IC's and Olimar! Makes it really hard for IC's to cg at lower percents and makes it impossible for Olimar to throw after a grab at low percents. TRY THIS!!!
 
Jimmyfosho

Jimmyfosho

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
5,317
Location
Being sarcastic and pointing out the obvious.
K Prime said:
Ok, so I found this really easy and fast way to grab break. First of off, you need set your d-pad to anything that helps you grab break. I set mines to shield and jump. When you get grabbed all you gotta do is use your index finger to hold the control stick in a direction like down, then start rotating the d-pad with your thumb and rapidly hit the c-stick with your other thumb. The direction you're hitting the c-stick must be different than the direction you're holding the control stick. This alone will break out of grabs almost instantly. You don't even need to rotate the control stick, just holding it makes hitting the c-stick count as 3 inputs every time. Doing this method also leaves a lot of your fingers free to hit other buttons like L+R and the face buttons to break out even faster!

This is really effective against the IC's and Olimar! Makes it really hard for IC's to cg at lower percents and makes it impossible for Olimar to throw after a grab at low percents. TRY THIS!!!
Click to expand...
You're not trolling me right? :bee:
 
Pikabunz

Pikabunz

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
6,084
Location
San Antonio, TX
NNID
Pikabunz
3DS FC
1134-8730-8374
No trolling. I believe this will change the IC's MU and even the Olimar MU a little since he can't do his low percent grab combos anymore.

Here's a bunch frame junk:

Every time you rotate the d-pad that's 4 inputs, which is 32 frames subtracted from the grab hold.
Hitting the c-stick every time counts as 2 inputs, but if you're holding the control stick, it counts as 3 so that's 24 more frames subtracted. That comes to a total of 56 frames (almost a second!) every time you rotate the d-pad and hit the c-stick once. And you only need 90 frames to break out of a grab at 0%.
 
Tagxy

Tagxy

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,482
I was testing it with K Prime. Not that Im an IC pro so take this with a grain of salt, but dash grab felt essentially useless until pretty high percents. It also felt like sopos dthrow cg no longer lead into a regular cg for those susceptible to it. Pivot grab still seemed to work fine for setting up cgs and standing grab was obviously ok.

As for the CGs themselves Bthrow Dthrow is a lot harder and pretty much useless until a decent percent. Basically everything needs to be buffered until a decent percent. Obviously this is still technically possible, but its no longer a free ride for ICs anymore, and they have much less room for mistakes.

In regards to killing, usually has to come at a higher percent if you want to make sure you get it.

As for olimar, this is also to be taken with a grain of salt, but at low percents you can mash out as long as he doesnt grab you close, as in normalish grab range. If it has to extend to grab you you can probably mash out in time. Obviously wont save you if hes going to kill you with a grab, but it will get you out of his low percent combos assuming he doesnt grab you at close range.

We tested this with other tethers and it didnt work for some reason (maybe different mechanics or their grabs were just too fast). But yeah, Im guessing it would work against force palm or if theres any other slow grabs im not thinking of, but it probably affects ICs most and sorta oli.

It does not work vs pikachu all his grabs are buffered.
 
Ripple

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,632
K Prime said:
:pika: and stuff
Click to expand...
I just do what reflex does and rotate the control stick while mashing every single button rapidly. I can usually break out under 130% if ICs to charge upsmash.

anyway, jiggs does NOT have a bad jab at all. whoever said that has no idea about puff.

her jab isn't falco good or even link good but her jab has almost no cool down so she has a short range falcon jab.
 
ChocoNaner

ChocoNaner

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
469
Location
SoCal :I
This isn't "new" at all. It's been known since Super Mario Kart that you could break out of grabs like how K Prime Ribs explained it. Pay no attention to him whatsoever. :glare:
 
Yikarur

Yikarur

Smash Master
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
4,595
Location
Germany
I rotate the Controllstick, flicking the C-Stick and use the other fingers for mashing. It's really fast and effective.
K Primes method is kinda finger acrobatic :p
 
Pikabunz

Pikabunz

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
6,084
Location
San Antonio, TX
NNID
Pikabunz
3DS FC
1134-8730-8374
Maths for breaking out at 201%:

Formula
Frames Held = 90 + (1.7 * Damage) - (8 * Inputs)
Note: Frames Held is the number of frames the victim stays in the grab.
Note 2: Damage is the percentage of the victim. Inputs is the number of inputs the victim performs; a c-stick input counts as two.
Click to expand...
So at 201% a grab last for 431 frames. To break out, you need at most 53 inputs. You can do that in a second using this method. :)
 
JCav

JCav

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
1,217
Location
Michigan
Is there any way that this could help you to air break out of DeDeDe's chaingrab? Like isn't it true that if you input a button the frame you get grabbed that you will air break?
 
Nestec

Nestec

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
916
Location
STL
Psychoace said:
I would like to know your thoughts about why you think Link is better than falcon.
Click to expand...
Falcon's match-ups make Link's look like they're dipped in gold.
Not to mention Falcon is nowhere near as much of a threat in high-level play as Link is. Granted, neither of them are reasonable threats, but relative to one another, Link kicks much more booty.

The only thing Falcon has over Link is a superior air game.

-LzR- said:
Everyone blindly puts Jiggs as 2nd worst and says "she lacks representation". Why don't you put Ganon over Puff then when he has better results? And Puff is waaaayy better than Zelda. Zelda is such a limited character with a crappy jab, crappy aerials and a horrible recovery, she is tall, she is light and she is floaty.
Now how could she be better than Puff at all?
Click to expand...
Umm...because Ganon is clearly not better than Puff, even with his superior results you speak of.

And you are horribly underrating Zelda.

:green:
 
Nidtendofreak

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
-LzR- said:
Everyone blindly puts Jiggs as 2nd worst and says "she lacks representation". Why don't you put Ganon over Puff then when he has better results? And Puff is waaaayy better than Zelda. Zelda is such a limited character with a crappy jab, crappy aerials and a horrible recovery, she is tall, she is light and she is floaty.
Now how could she be better than Puff at all?
Click to expand...
Dude, ever thought if basically everyone, if not indeed everyone, is putting Jigglypuff second last and Zelda third last, there might be a reason for it?

Jigglypuff is worse than Zelda. Get over it already.

And if that "get out of IC grab for free" button method works out well and is used in tournaments: say goodbye to your top ten placing in the tier list ICs. You're falling like a brick.
 
E

Elyssa Xey Hexen

Broken!
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
It is still nice to know the reasons why.

To me, jiggs lack the ability to kill, and the ability to take hits. Her best method for kills would have to be low percent gimps, but once the opponent is outside of this range, they are not dying easily.

She has close to the top of recoveries, but in Brawl, this does not mean too much. Any character, even the bad ones can recovery decently well, Its means less when you die at so low percents anyway that you never really have to recover with more than say 2 jumps as jiggs. Her recovery really only shines when she tries to be elusive about getting hit.

Unless someone can prove to me that jiggs method of being evasive like wario/MK is a great strategy, her surviability compared to other characters holds her back quiet a lot.
 
_Kadaj_

_Kadaj_

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
9,423
Location
Throw that P***y at me? B***h I think Im Babe Ruth
K Prime said:
Ok, so I found this really easy and fast way to grab break. First of off, you need set your d-pad to anything that helps you grab break. I set mines to shield and jump. When you get grabbed all you gotta do is use your index finger to hold the control stick in a direction like down, then start rotating the d-pad with your thumb and rapidly hit the c-stick with your other thumb. The direction you're hitting the c-stick must be different than the direction you're holding the control stick. This alone will break out of grabs almost instantly. You don't even need to rotate the control stick, just holding it makes hitting the c-stick count as 3 inputs every time. Doing this method also leaves a lot of your fingers free to hit other buttons like L+R and the face buttons to break out even faster!

This is really effective against the IC's and Olimar! Makes it really hard for IC's to cg at lower percents and makes it impossible for Olimar to throw after a grab at low percents. TRY THIS!!!
Click to expand...
good stuff
 
E

emo dabuz

Guest
with this new discovery, olimar should drop 5 spots, and ICS should drop 5 as well ;_;
 
deepseadiva

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8,001
Location
CO
3DS FC
1779-0766-2622
With this new discovery everyone with a grab will drop.

Which means a rise for Toon Link!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom