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Official BBR Tier List v5

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Elyssa Xey Hexen

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I would say the increased weight makes bowser better than zelda. They seem very similar in other areas. Like neither can approach, but have solid defences against approaches. Imagine Snake as light as fox or falco. Snake becomes instant mid-high tier character. Weight makes all the difference a lot of the time.
 
Spelt

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Zelda does not have solid defenses. She has mediocre defenses, which is unfortunately her best trait.
 
Supermodel From Paris

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I have a question, and maybe this will move discussion a little, even though I admit I'm asking this directly related to my character (sorry for that):

What is a "good ground game?" ZSS' ground game is often considered to be pretty bad, even by me. Some ZSS players (Snakeee for instance) like barely even use her ground moves, and jump around a lot spacing with the sideways part of uair. NickRiddle's playstyle seems awfully ground-heavy by comparison, and I was talking to someone about this on AIM last night (maybe adumbrodeus) and neither of us really think her ground game is that bad anymore.

The reason for this is that Brawl is so heavily based on reads in the first place, and ZSS has a lot of very good punishes for ground-based reads, and many of them are quite fast. Also, her dsmash releases from a charge on frame 1, so when she launches someone into the air, charging dsmash becomes really dangerous (this works in a lot of other situations too). I think it's better to say ZSS has a poor shield game than a ground game. You can see in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uENGdUqxq_8 that Nick uses her very good forward roll, first jab, dsmash, dtilt, and utilt to form a ground game that is actually scary when predicting approaches against characters that have to.

This isn't entirely about ZSS, I just think that we're a little wrong about what a good ground game is. Air games are a bit more linear, since you can always force and punish air dodges and stuff, that will likely always be about the same.
 
Ripple

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ZSS has an amazing ground game.

why? how many characters can reliably get in on her via ground combat?

her d-smash is almost broken, all she has to do is mix up side-b, d-smash, and maybe d-tilt or up tilt and shes safe from everything
 
Supermodel From Paris

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Right.

Her OOS options look pretty bad at first, but utilt is frame 11 and JC usmash is frame 8 (!!!) OOS. Jab is 9. Her big weakness is not having a grab OOS, but in any staredown situation she's fast as hell and can just run.

Her mid-range camp game is pretty safe unless you're really predictable. I wouldn't say that if you say, predict a dsmash you can't punish it, she's not THAT safe (Orion will say the same thing lol), as a matter of fact, the moves are really easy to punish if you see them coming. But you can't punish them all the same, and jumping over her is mad dangerous.

I think this understanding is what makes NR so much more successful than the rest of us, because if you watch his gameplay, it's VERY VERY ground-centric and he doesn't shield a lot. In most situations other characters would shield, just runs runs the other way. It isn't like most characters can catch her.
 
Nysyarc

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How exactly do you define what makes a character's ground game good or bad though? I could say Ike's ground game is good simply because of his Jabs. Every other one of Ike's ground moves vary in usefulness from decent (Utilt) to abysmal (Dsmash), with most being pretty bad. Taking the average would leave Ike with a mediocre ground game, but since any good Ike will basically only be using Jab on the ground and the occasional Usmash/Ftilt/whatever for KOing on a read, he has a pretty good ground game competitively.

:248:
 
Supermodel From Paris

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Well, in may cases, there's more to your ground game than just your "ground moves." Peach in particular has a mediocre "ground game" hypothetically, but in reality she's quite good on the ground because of ground floats. Ike is similar, although obviously not exactly the same.

ZSS is actually totally polar in this regard because her short hop is, like, high.
 
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Elyssa Xey Hexen

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I always defined it as your options related to ground level. Which would involve how good they are at getting around other characters or dealing with other characters. Falco's lasers are an important part of his ground game for example.
 
Spelt

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i don't really consider lasers part of his ground game.
maybe silent laser.
 
Tesh

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I would consider your ground game to be however you deal with grounded opponents with the exception of being completely vertical to them.
 
Radiancy

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Why do I have a feeling Falcon, Ness, Lucas, and Ike are all going to go up next tier? Maybe just me?
 
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etecoon

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ShadowLink84 said:
Hmm gee, lets see, why would the SBR making a tierlist based around the LGL be bad?
Oh gee, LET ME THINK, IT MUST BE BECAUSE OF THE RULESET THAT WE RELEASED HAD NO LGL!


It would be a massive contradiction if the SBR tierlist, presumed a ledge grab limit (STOP GRABBING THE LEDGE SO MUCH GOD!) was present, while the SBR ruleset suggest no ledge grab limit.

Heck the reasons for no LGL was stated within the ruleset IIRC.
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then it is good that you are no longer responsible for making rulesets : )
 
Shaya

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Yo dawg, I hear people were talking about Marth 3 pages ago, and I can't really keep up with this thread in its entirety at the moment.

Marth's dancing blade has 1 frame of hit lag on each hit.
Some character's just naturally have weird hurtboxes that can actually just hold back and somehow avoid 'traditional' db. Those characters are Zero Suit, Diddy and Pikachu. Maybe Lucario too.
The BBR has been doing a match up project for a bit now, and I've found it quite humorous that some people have argued with me match ups saying that dancing blade was easy to DI.

A while back, I took the time out to publicly mention hundreds of millions of times that dancing blade should not be getting di'd out of reliably as long as you do the second hit upwards, as the direction of the move sends them towards Marth.

Also Marth's 3rd hit downwards can clash, it's a weird exception that I believe has to do with it being a spike. I also believe it has more than 1 frame of hitlag to it as well.

Doing DB1 > DB2 UP > DB3 Down > DB4 Neutral is pretty much a guaranteed tipper on the last hit, which is pretty meh but its interesting.
Dancing Blade is still probably one of the individual best moves in the game.

------------

If anyone has any Marth related questions or any BBR related questions (I gotz da authoritay~) feel free to ask.
 
Poltergust

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About the ground game thing...

I believe that a character has a good ground game as long as it's effective. For example, Yoshi's ground game is great because all of his moves have good uses and can sometimes even string into each other. Snake's ground game is good because his moves are super-disjointed. Under this criteria, I'd even consider Wario's ground game to be good since, while it comprises mainly of grabs and f-smash (and the occasional f-tilt), that's really all he needs to be effective on the ground. I'd say that Wario's ground game is limited, but not necessarily bad.

There are really only a few characters that have bad ground games. Jigglypuff is the most obvious example, but I think the list can expand to Zelda and Ganondorf, too. Well, maybe not Zelda since she does have a good anti-aerial and a great d-smash. She has mobility issues, though.

:069:
 
Poltergust

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Like I said, it's effective for what it does. The problem he has is that he pretty much has only two good ground moves. Normally, I do think Wario's ground game sucks.

This point is irrelevant for Wario, though. He's going to be spending like 95% of the match in the air.

:069:
 
Spelt

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Poltergust said:
This point is irrelevant for Wario, though. He's going to be spending like 95% of the match in the air.

:069:
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Same with Jigglypuff.

Jigglypuff's ground game is slightly better than most people think.
Her actual run is the only thing that sucks, her initial dash speed is average, which I don't think most people realize. So using occasional foxtrots to move around the stage isn't a bad idea. Other than that you don't really need anything else because her air mobility is so great.

the only things she should be using on the ground consistently are dash attack (coupled with her initial dash makes a very lethal killer), and grab which both excel at their respective uses. I think utilt is a great move as well but nobody agrees with me....


TL;DR I think Jigglypuff has one of the least evolved meta games and eventually I think we will see her rise to top of low tier. Now I just need to stop sucking at this game so I can prove it.
 
Supermodel From Paris

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ShadowLink84 said:
It is good you NEVER did make rulesets.

Ah but I forget, you're probably one of the scrubs who think infinites should be banned cause their "cheap" right?
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The only rule set you ever hand a hand in making was mostly mocked, even if I liked a lot of it.

Puff is one of the main sufferers of 'The Golden Rule of Brawl'
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That's true. Jigglypuff is genuinely really bad, but there's also absolutely no reason to play her, as there are characters who do what she does better. We may never know how good or bad Jiggs really is, but like Zelda, she might as well be bottom tier.

I have expressed similar feelings about Mario before, who is probably not really low tier, but might as well be, because anyone with any inclination to play him would play another character better.

Does anyone feel that Zelda and Lucario have an eerily clone-y moveset? I'm not saying they're at all similar, just that a lot of their moves have similar animations lol. This is totally irrelevant to game balance, just something I've noticed about them.
 
Delta-cod

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Supermodel From Paris said:
I think this understanding is what makes NR so much more successful than the rest of us, because if you watch his gameplay, it's VERY VERY ground-centric and he doesn't shield a lot. In most situations other characters would shield, just runs runs the other way. It isn't like most characters can catch her.
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Damn, all Yoshis should start learning Zero Suit now. We've been running instead of shielding for years!
 
Steam

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Supermodel From Paris said:
Does anyone feel that Zelda and Lucario have an eerily clone-y moveset? I'm not saying they're at all similar, just that a lot of their moves have similar animations lol. This is totally irrelevant to game balance, just something I've noticed about them.
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not really... only nair. and her Fsmash= lucario's Ftilt.

I've always thought zelda was a lucario without any sort of versitility and more power... and no approach too
 
Sinister Slush

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Delta-cod said:
Damn, all Yoshis should start learning Zero Suit now. We've been running instead of shielding for years!
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Not sure about running, but to make Yoshi's seem worse. I've been Spot dodging her Side-B's.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, after around the 10th or so time i've played CPU ZSS and SA's ZSS I learned to just Sheild mostly ALL her attacks.

Surprising, yet scary at the same time, that Sheild grab ACTUALLY works on her.
 
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etecoon

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ShadowLink84 said:
It is good you NEVER did make rulesets.

Ah but I forget, you're probably one of the scrubs who think infinites should be banned cause their "cheap" right?
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I'd say MM me if you think I'm a scrub but you don't even go to tournaments, you're just the american version of BPC.

actually he has way more cred than you at this point LOL
 
ShadowLink84

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etecoon said:
I'd say MM me if you think I'm a scrub but you don't even go to tournaments, you're just the american version of BPC.

actually he has way more cred than you at this point LOL
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Which would prove what exactly?
How does me, MMing you change the fact you are a scrub?
Do you even know the definition of a scrub?
Even if I did even bother entertaining your demand for a MM, you'd still be a scrub win or lose.
You want to know who else challenged me to a MM over the same reason?
DA K.I.D.
I believe he still has yet to pay me back or buy me a meal.



Now do me a favor and get your bulimic *** to the hospital since the stuff flying out your mouth looks gnarly. LOL


When will the 6th tier list be out?
Click to expand...
The tierlists have been coming out every 6 months.


Supermodel From Paris said:
The only rule set you ever hand a hand in making was mostly mocked, even if I liked a lot of it.
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Yeah I was not surprised at the reaction.
Considering how the community bans infinites, instituted an LGL and then tries to defend scrub mentality through MM's, I am not the least bit surprised.

By the way, moving to SoCal soon, Myrtle Beach specifically, please tell me I wont be the only smasher in that area.
 
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