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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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So the MU is basically totally different. I can't really think of anything Falcon can do to outspace Sheik's tilts, running in and grabbing isn't really my specialty but I'm not sure if you have time to even do that between ftilts.
Ah ya for sure.. for Falcon, I'm not sure what you can do pressure Sheik, I'm not very experienced with Falcon yet.
 

$mike

Smash Ace
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So the MU is basically totally different. I can't really think of anything Falcon can do to outspace Sheik's tilts, running in and grabbing isn't really my specialty but I'm not sure if you have time to even do that between ftilts.
i would say space the **** out of nair while moving around (dding + empty short hops). wait for the dash attack, short hop fair, or another tilt. then punish with grab/stomp (for dash attack)/knee

ya stock is done

though sheik basically has an answer to everything, so hypothetically there's not anything that sheik has no options against... it's just catching them doing something stupid basically
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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The way I play the match, there is no real pressure, it's just the threat of getting completely ruined if you're hit or grabbed, I've noticed that without excellent DI (and even sometimes with it) if you get Sheik off the ground and in hitstun you can kill her pretty easily.

The problem I've been having recently is that run up + shield (to bait ftilt) gets grabbed, which leads to getting dthrow tech chased. Running in and nairing gets ftilted into a grab. It's pretty annoying.

I can reliably smash DI out of the jab reset but even that only goes so far, getting grabbed too much by Sheik is a bad sign.

Smash DI and correct CCing is something I've been neglecting to learn though and I think it really separates the boys from the men in this game.


i would say space the **** out of nair while moving around (dding + empty short hops). wait for the dash attack, short hop fair, or another tilt. then punish with grab/stomp (for dash attack)/knee

ya stock is done

though sheik basically has an answer to everything, so hypothetically there's not anything that sheik has no options against... it's just catching them do something stupid basically
ya pretty good $mike

moving a ton is the best answer for sure, i'm trying to do that vs falco too, just MOVE MOVE MOVE so you don't necessarily have to play his game

jiggs afaik is the only character where i HAVE to play her game no matter what i try to do

i can't think of any moves where sheik really has a cooldown to totally safely hit her from, besides dash attack
 

$mike

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ya pretty good $mike

moving a ton is the best answer for sure, i'm trying to do that vs falco too, just MOVE MOVE MOVE so you don't necessarily have to play his game

jiggs afaik is the only character where i HAVE to play her game no matter what i try to do

i can't think of any moves where sheik really has a cooldown to totally safely hit her from, besides dash attack
yea pretty much. when i remember to not be ******** i try to move around as much as i can vs falco, just to basically never challenge them from the front. ive finalized from watching mango's falcon vs falco that forcing the falco to make uncomfortable setups by always changing your placement is the key to ****** them. SH nairing the whole game might get you a grab or two but the lasers usually beat it which leads to the same autocombos on falcon that they've practiced 1000 times
 

Aussierob123

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Mangos approach to Falco seems to be entirely focused on dair and knee, he doesn't often use nairs unless it's for defensive reasons. And he's ****ing good against Falco, prob the best falcon against Falco.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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couldn't have said it better myself $mike

it's like attacking into siege tanks in sc2

i realized from RTS that that's what i was doing and how dumb it is lol, i've thrown away more important tourney stocks than most :p

aussierob -- def the best falcon vs falco, i think it's probably partly bc he knows falco so well
 

Fuujin

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Double posting in ur threads.
Mangos approach to Falco seems to be entirely focused on dair and knee, he doesn't often use nairs unless it's for defensive reasons. And he's ****ing good against Falco, prob the best falcon against Falco.
I personally don't feel he does very well in that match up.
You should be approaching Falco with nair and the side b when hes in the air.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
you can grab them if shiek f-tilts

up-tilt i'm not even sure if you can grab them

bad shieks and better ones too fall for this where you wavedash in place in front of them and they toss out a f-tilt, wait for it grab and then ****
 

Divinokage

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Well with what ive said, it doesnt change the fact that Shiek's oos game is not great, all she has is vertical movement, so if you stay away from that zone, Sheik can do nothing oos. It's up to you Falcons to abuse that somehow and of course mix it up.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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i'll remember that johnny... wd in place? really?

also i'm finding that after uthrow on a platform, mixing dair tech chase and nair is really good, nair covers a lot of options, and vs sheik getting a nair off like that is a really good combo starter

yo i'm about to take the GATTSU tag from sensei for ##### and beyond
 

Divinokage

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Guts is a freaking champion warrior. lol. Who the hell can stand in his way?

WD in place I find can be good as it changes your timing for things and can sometimes screw up the opponent's pace. It's a good mindgame.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
it's a good noob pwner and good mix up in general, it helps that most shieks are gawd awful and that even the decent ones fall for it a lot

i've found that f-tilt even if it hits falcon is not good if falcon knows about crouch cancelling

up-tilt is better for shiek since the 2nd hit has extremely little lag

--

you deserve the gattsu tag loool
 

Roneblaster

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you can CC the ftilt to grab, idk if its JC or Dashgrab. but you have to react real fast (which is no problem for a man like scar)

btw this is only page 379, **** hasnt gotten serious yet.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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i think my issue with sheik is that in most matchups i get a lot of use out of overshooting aerials really far, and this doesnt work as well against sheik because she doesnt try to get out of the way as much as just hit me out of the moves

but then again, if she does outspace my moves, i can get grabbed which is pretty bad

i think knee as an approach might be worth looking into a little more scar, i think if youre sufficiently staggering and mixing up the timing of your approach then the sheik cant really react fast enough to react differently to a knee than a nair as you approach, and since a nair was a gamble anyway like you said its not too bad to bet a little harder. plus if you trade hits, which is pretty possible i think, then its better instead of being horrible

its still a risky move, but im not sure if you can beat sheik without them, i think it comes down to the rewards for your risks outweighing hers
 

ChivalRuse

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you can CC the ftilt to grab, idk if its JC or Dashgrab. but you have to react real fast (which is no problem for a man like scar)
Both work. But it's important that you let go of the CC and dash immediately after the f-tilt hits you, which is kind of tricky but once you learn how, it becomes a natural movement.
 

Jeapie

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when you shield sheiks ftilt , you can wavedash -> grab , if your fast enough.

Although when sheik hits you with her toe in a ftilt ( spaced ) wavdash -> grab is not fast enough.

I reccomand up B oos then. when her %s is like over 30 or something.

If it isnt , your probly going to get punisht for your up B since she didnt need to tech ^^

Trust me I live in the country with the best sheiks, I know this **** =D


Up tilt is sheiks best move, gtfo out when you see it!


random : basic combo on sheik? uptrow to uairs off stage -> wait -> sheik gets back -> dair reversed knee, repeat.


A good way to build up %s is just by doing the 3 jabs.

I guess it isnt that easy in ntsc then in pal unfortunately ;(

We play ntsc here too, sometimes. Mainly for marths sexy dair only fox is disgusting in your game -_-
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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lol good **** jeapie hahahaha yeah fox is pretty good in NTSC

bigD you right, you right. good points.

what do you guys think about FD as opposed to other stages? it seems like non-FD is easier than FD, since you basically need to attack directly into sheik on that big flat stage
 
D

Deleted member

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almost every shiek i know hates FD

i think its better than yoshis and if they don't suck fountain, yoshis is too dinky and fountain sux
 

Reaver197

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What are the thoughts on full-hopping and timing the dair so that the very tip of the feet hit the top of the other character, especially against Spacies that like to utilt?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
If they shield it or you whiff, you're extra ****ed.
stomping on shields is fine if you space like a champ

i don't think full hop stomps are generally a good idea though

but even against up-tilt happy spacies you can super space so that you barely dodge the up-tilt and still stomp them

it's not that good against super good spacies since they actually time the up-tilt

but lesser players like to mash up-tilt especially after a tech in place
 

$mike

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What are the thoughts on full-hopping and timing the dair so that the very tip of the feet hit the top of the other character, especially against Spacies that like to utilt?
the only time i do this is to punish falco's lhdl, that way even if it misses you still have time to jump again and evade

there are probably better options vs uptilting spacies though. you can punish an uptilt happy spacie the same way you do as if they were spotdodging, though the timing needs to be a bit tighter
 

Jeapie

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sorry for changing the subject ....

someone has to explan falcon-fox for me cause I have a feeling im just doing random stuff in that matchup.

Im currently uploading videos from a small tournament i just got back from at lawrencelots place RCT7= Tourney name .

I got 2nd, won against remens fox in wf, lost against gf twice against his fox.

Hes just spamming around doing airs and stuff ( no lasers! ) and im just getting ***** or something lol.

Hes a great player so congratz to him for winning, but i just want to get better in this matchup.

vids coming in 1 or 2 days. slowwwww internetzzz

Scar, what do you do against fox? Dont say grab -> **** please :p
 

Ministry

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as good as sheiks tilts are baiting them is even better.

i have trouble when i get my tilt baited then i get grabbed or stomped.

also dthrow regrab doesnt work if they di away and down.

getting sheik in sheild is also really good cause her options are bad.

some falcons like to overshoot nair then sh bair or dash dance grab, it works pretty well if sheikd doesnt react fast enough
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
sorry for changing the subject ....

someone has to explan falcon-fox for me cause I have a feeling im just doing random stuff in that matchup.

Im currently uploading videos from a small tournament i just got back from at lawrencelots place RCT7= Tourney name .

I got 2nd, won against remens fox in wf, lost against gf twice against his fox.

Hes just spamming around doing airs and stuff ( no lasers! ) and im just getting ***** or something lol.

Hes a great player so congratz to him for winning, but i just want to get better in this matchup.

vids coming in 1 or 2 days. slowwwww internetzzz

Scar, what do you do against fox? Dont say grab -> **** please :p

camp and nair carefully 5804930 times

i have lost many fox friends with this new unbeatable tactic... lol
 

Tomacawk

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Falcon's nair is under rated against fox. If you're spacing well, it actually out prioritizes fox's nair every time. the only thing fox can do to beat it flat out is bair in between the hits of the nair, shield it and usmash/grab/shine, and utilt if you flub the spacing on an approach
protect your space with nairs and dashes, hop up on platforms with your back turned occasionally so you can drop and bair to grab, fade away short hop stomp approaches
if spacies are doing a lot of full hop nairs that land behind your shield, put your back to them as they approach and shield. then grab upon landing (this works in falcon dittos, too. Don't do it too often)
a lot of spacies, even good ones, buffer spot dodges consistently when they whiff an approach. something I've learned is that when you dodge their approach, wait just a little longer and see if they spot dodge/roll. It's a free grab. if they cover whiffed approaches with jabs, stomp em in the nuts
as a fox player, something that gets me pretty frequently is short hop non fast fallen knee approaches. use it to shake things up a bit...the hardest thing for me with fox is to control my character when my rhythm is broken. even if you get a soft hit and nothing else, they'll often panic and give you openings
 

ChivalRuse

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Getting repeatedly shield stabbed by Falcon's nair into a grab has to be one of the most frustrating things in this game. I wish I wasn't such a noob when it comes to angling my shield. :facepalm:
 

JPOBS

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how the f*** does falcons nair shield stab anything?

more precisely, how are you shielding enough to have your shield wittled enough to have his nair stab?

shielding vs falcon a lot is silly imo. either a run train of priority/speed right through his moves, crouch cancel, or gtfo of the way.
 

ChivalRuse

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I'm not shielding a lot. That move is just gay. CCing it isn't even that great because half the time you CC you just eat a stomp/knee instead.
 

Aussierob123

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Gold Coast - Australia
Man, how the **** do you guys (scar/ ss / hax /s2j etc) ****ing do this. Falcon seems like such a piece of **** sometimes (I just placed 7th at an aus "national"), I dunno how you guys win. I would just love to see one of you come over here and dominate the **** out of everyone and teach me your skills.
 

R00R

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393
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I ***** Hax at Mario Party 8 last night.

Clearly I am the best falcon in the world.
 
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