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X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

I say: "OS fails to follow up on CDubs until after I call him out on it"

OS changes this to: "X1 is saying I didn't follow up on CDubs the way he wants to"

Clear change. The second one is much easier to defend against as it actually gives the false impression that OS followed it up at all, and makes it sound like I am just being pedantic, whereas the first one is my true argument.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

Actually, yours is the straw man.

I showed how I was interested in CDubs prior to your questioning because, hey, guess what? I'm the one who brought it up.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

:o

Are you serious? I'm talking about how you failed to follow up on your read on CDubs. You thought he was indy, then didn't mention him ever again until I called you out on it. This is perfectly clear from my posts on the matter.

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

X1-12 said:
:o

Are you serious? I'm talking about how you failed to follow up on your read on CDubs. You thought he was indy, then didn't mention him ever again until I called you out on it. This is perfectly clear from my posts on the matter.

Over all 15 hours?

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

Overswarm do not drag this round in a circle. I've already proved that it over 4 days had passed and you had not followed up the read.

You acknowledge the read here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12150491&postcount=1207

I call you out on not following up here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12175783&postcount=1365

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

A derrrrrr

I don't seem to see much in a read there. More like a statement that, after my posts later where I had to explain my read on CDubs to you, would be more clear.

Are you saying instead of posting that, I should have said

"I BELIEVE CDUBS IS INDIE

CDUBS, ARE YOU INDIE?!"

and called it a day?

Enlighten me, because you seem to be stretching things preeeeeeeeetty far to not make yourself look bad.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

I asked you about that post, and you said it was where you saw a post by CDubs which made you think he was indy.

I am saying after that post, you should have pursued you read on CDubs. This is perfectly clear.

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

X1-12 said:
I asked you about that post, and you said it was where you saw a post by CDubs which made you think he was indy.

I am saying after that post, you should have pursued you read on CDubs. This is perfectly clear.

Yes, yes. When did I say that to you? Go ahead and link it for me.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12173739&postcount=1357

Beat! · Feb 15, 2011

@Ran

I could see a x1/os team. I'd rather lynch X1 first.

Expand on how they could be a team. I've seen you mention it, but I'd like to hear a little more.

I agree. Luxor can be scum, along with you. Not Rajam. I think he was legit pushing cases on everyone.

It wasn't? You said "Also, what Zen said" in the very post you voted Glyph. Luxor joined along to fill the wagon with gas for mileage. That was your term, correct?

I also said

Very good post by rajam.

Rajams post and Glyphs responses were my major reasons for voting. I also agreed with Zens post. You can't say agreeing with someone is "blindly following". You're just picking out the parts that make your case look better.

No, that wasn't a contradiction. I meant that it would be good if you guys didn't blindly follow him, even though you did in my eyes.

Look, in the first quote you say "I don't like how they stopped following you", and in the other you say you want us to think by ourselves. It is a contradiction.

This is quotes in order from page 10 to page 11. Nothing here states your reason about voting Glyph. Luxor didn't state a reason to follow along either, but he did make a small case on Glyph before hand, while you didn't. You were on OS.

I have provided reasoning for voting Glyph. If you really can't find it, I can quote it.

What Zen said? Can you be a little more elaborate?

I agreed with his post. I didn't want to make a large post saying the exact same things.

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.

What'd I do before that?

What'd I do after that?

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

my brain is imploding.

Before that point, you were defending yourself from Cdubs' case, not answering my questions, questinoning glg.

After that point you do pretty much more of the same kind of thing, until I call you out for not following up on CDubs, when you do start to pursue him.

ranmaru · Feb 15, 2011

@X1: So you are pursuing OS. Give 1-2 reasons why he should die today. If his lynch got derailed, who would you lynch then? Why?

@OS: Who are your scumpicks? 2-3 please, with brief explanations.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

Ranmaru said:
@X1: So you are pursuing OS. Give 1-2 reasons why he should die today. If his lynch got derailed, who would you lynch then? Why?

If you read the thread then the answers to all of these should be more than obvious

#HBC | Red Ryu · Feb 15, 2011

X1-12 said:
@Red Ryu: The things you just attacked me for don't even apply any more. I start playing properly and give reasoning and now you are still brining stuff up from ages ago. People saw it the first time that you posted it. Also pretty sure I've asked you this before but explain why specific actions are scummy. Think about the intent a player has when they make the posts. Think what reasons the player could have to do it as town, then think what reasons they could have to do it as scum. Saying 'trying to make deals is mad scummy' isn't enough.

You obviously skimmed my post because I did explain why.

In case you missed it the first time, it's because your trying to get people to jump onto an unexplained lynch on the preface you will help others with another lynch the next day. There is nothing to ensure that you will follow up on such a promise, more so if town wouldn't follow up on it except for the few looking for that lynch.

Your cases have been weak in this game, you tried this same stuff before with Gordy and tried passing it off as getting reads and yet your doing it again and claim it is not such.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

Red Ryu said:
You obviously skimmed my post because I did explain why.

In case you missed it the first time, it's because your trying to get people to jump onto an unexplained lynch on the preface you will help others with another lynch the next day. There is nothing to ensure that you will follow up on such a promise, more so if town wouldn't follow up on it except for the few looking for that lynch.

Your cases have been weak in this game, you tried this same stuff before with Gordy and tried passing it off as getting reads and yet your doing it again and claim it is not such.

You're not explaining why at all.

Why is making deals scummy? I want Overswarm lynched toDay because I find him scummy. That's not scummy. I'm doing whatever I can to get my top scum pick lynched, what reasons do you have to believe it is otherwise? Talk about scummy INTENT. This is the third time asking. The last line is also completely whack, do you genuinely think I'm just pursuing OS for reads?? How can I make it more clear that I want him lynched?

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

X1-12 said:
my brain is imploding.

Before that point, you were defending yourself from Cdubs' case, not answering my questions, questinoning glg.

Sounds like I was being productive.

After that point you do pretty much more of the same kind of thing, until I call you out for not following up on CDubs, when you do start to pursue him.

The same thing:

OS said:
Hey look everybody, we've got a cool guy here.

What are you trying to do, GLG? I agree, that statement makes no sense.

But voting someone without saying anything and thinking that they're just going to lose their **** isn't going to help anyone. Especially when the guy in question speaks English as a second language (which, btw Rajam? I'm impressed with. I'm awful with languages. Totally non-mafia related, just saying). Ask questions! Then, when he answers, people can always GO BACK even if the wagon immediately dissolves now.

Town has an advantage in numbers. Scum has an advantage in knowledge. As the game goes on, town's advantage in numbers decreases while their knowledge increases. The goal of the game is for Town to get enough information so that scum doesn't surpass them in numbers by that point. Voting and not saying anything won't help.

Post #1 after the one X1 linked.

OS said:
I thought you were scummier than Nich, and a lynch is better than a No Lynch. The possibility of you being scum was there, and that was enough to go off of in that scenario.

pooooost 2

OS said:
Luxor, what do you think of CDubs?

What made you uneasy?

aaaaaaand post 3.

Aaaaaaaand then you bring up CDubs in the post immediately after the one where... I... mention CDubs.

I get this resopnse from luxor

luxor said:
Cdubs isn't active enough. Every time he does post, it's a big wall of text saying bla bla vote person X. I find him rather scummy, and wouldn't hesitate to lynch him if the opportunity arose.

Uneasiness was due to Cdubs doing the above, GLG being led not once but twice, and three people claiming they'll post later (none of whom has posted yet). I just don't like it.

And Jungle's votecount was missing my vote on Zen but whatever.

OS said:
@CDubs

Make a post on what you think of every player in this game. Give reasoning for anything important.

Hey, that's me again making a logical step.

Did I also mention that in this entire exchange, CDubs hasn't posted at all?

So, to be clear, what is posted above is what you have a problem with, right?

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

@OS: Who are your scumpicks? 2-3 please, with brief explanations.

Zen is on my radar... as posted earlier.

CDubs is on my radar as an indie... as posted earlier.

I'll hit this more later when I'm done figuring out what exactly X1 is smoking.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

Overswarm STOP.

I have made it perfectly clear that you were doing some things which were useful, like answering questions, and asking questions. HOWEVER you were not pursuing your scum read, something you have no justification for not doing.

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

Your cases have been weak in this game, you tried this same stuff before with Gordy and tried passing it off as getting reads and yet your doing it again and claim it is not such.

I didn't really think about X1's gordito play as anything that would connect to toDay. I tricked myself into thinking X1 was just being stupid and put it out of my head.

Re-reading later. Will post more after, possibly with a case on X1 and I'll try to summarize my picks for Ran.

@Ran what do you think of X1's current play? What do you think of his recent statements about me not pursuing CDubs fast enough?

ranmaru · Feb 15, 2011

BeatStick said:
@Ran

Expand on how they could be a team. I've seen you mention it, but I'd like to hear a little more.

I also said

Rajams post and Glyphs responses were my major reasons for voting. I also agreed with Zens post. You can't say agreeing with someone is "blindly following". You're just picking out the parts that make your case look better.

Look, in the first quote you say "I don't like how they stopped following you", and in the other you say you want us to think by ourselves. It is a contradiction.

I have provided reasoning for voting Glyph. If you really can't find it, I can quote it.

I agreed with his post. I didn't want to make a large post saying the exact same things.

I say that because it seems they have been pushing hard for each other. Their arguments are dragging on for long too. I almost forgot that we need to lynch someone in 3 days. (That is why I asked them both questions up above)

Although them being a scum team is only a possibility.

You say they can't be a team. Can you show me why you think that? I may be wrong, and I'd like to know your point of view.

Can you say why you agreed with Zen's post? I'd like to see that.

I want you guys to think by yourselves the whole time. Not follow and then change up. I'm ok with you guys doubting zen, but I find it odd you would doubt him after that, and not before. Maybe you can help me understand that? What made you doubt Zen?

No, I haven't found it. Was it before page 11? Please quote it, thank you.

If Rajam didn't make a case on Glyph, but Zen made that post, would you think otherwise?

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

X1-12 said:
Overswarm STOP.

I have made it perfectly clear that you were doing some things which were useful, like answering questions, and asking questions. HOWEVER you were not pursuing your scum read, something you have no justification for not doing.

What if I didn't ****ing feel like it?

What if I was waiting for, oh, I dunno, CDubs to make a post after I post something that implies I think he's indie to see his response?

What if I was BUSY ASKING AND ANSWERING EXISTING QUESTIONS which you've admitted I've done.

HOW does not grilling CDubs, who I have suspicion of being INDEPENDENT, over the course of the FIFTEEN HOURS after confirming with you of why I thought he was indie, make me scum?

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

Also X1, answer my questions. You're avoiding them.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

Which questions haven't I answered?

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

You didn't feel like following up your scum read at a time when you only had 2 scum reads? Why not? That's scummy, you are choosing consciously NOT to do the pro-town thing.

You were waiting for CDubs? Why were you not quizzing him yourself?

You were asking other questions? Why does that take priority over pursuing your scumread?

OS said:
HOW does not grilling CDubs, who I have suspicion of being INDEPENDENT, over the course of the FIFTEEN HOURS after confirming with you of why I thought he was indie, make me scum?

STOP LYING ABOUT OR MISCONSTRUING GAME DATA. YOU SPENT 94 HOURS NOT FOLLOWING UP ON CDUBS. Regardless of whether you told me you thought he was indy, you saw the indy tell 94 hours before I called you out for not following it up.

ranmaru · Feb 15, 2011

Overswarm said:
I didn't really think about X1's gordito play as anything that would connect to toDay. I tricked myself into thinking X1 was just being stupid and put it out of my head.

Re-reading later. Will post more after, possibly with a case on X1 and I'll try to summarize my picks for Ran.

@Ran what do you think of X1's current play? What do you think of his recent statements about me not pursuing CDubs fast enough?

Thank you. I think he isn't being helpful because I know that he is trying to lynch you, yet he doesn't even answer the second part of my question. I am trying re-direct the conversation to lynching possible scum.

@X1: Is OS is scum, who do you think would be his scum mate and why?

I think his statements wouldn't matter because even if you did follow up on it, Cdubs probably wouldn't be here to answer that. Maybe this argument is a misunderstanding between the both of you?

@OS: What do you think X1 is trying to pin on you? I mean, I figure he thinks you are lying, so why do you think he would think you would lie about you following up or not following up on your Cdubs read?

ranmaru · Feb 15, 2011

Overswarm said:
I didn't really think about X1's gordito play as anything that would connect to toDay. I tricked myself into thinking X1 was just being stupid and put it out of my head.

Re-reading later. Will post more after, possibly with a case on X1 and I'll try to summarize my picks for Ran.

@Ran what do you think of X1's current play? What do you think of his recent statements about me not pursuing CDubs fast enough?

Thank you. I think he isn't being helpful because I know that he is trying to lynch you, yet he doesn't even answer the second part of my question. I am trying re-direct the conversation to lynching possible scum.

@X1: If OS is scum, who do you think would be his scum mate and why?

I think his statements wouldn't matter because even if you did follow up on it, Cdubs probably wouldn't be here to answer that. Maybe this argument is a misunderstanding between the both of you?

@OS: What do you think X1 is trying to pin on you? I mean, I figure he thinks you are lying, so why do you think he would think you would lie about you following up or not following up on your Cdubs read?

#HBC | Red Ryu · Feb 15, 2011

X1-12 said:
You're not explaining why at all.

Why is making deals scummy? I want Overswarm lynched toDay because I find him scummy. That's not scummy. I'm doing whatever I can to get my top scum pick lynched, what reasons do you have to believe it is otherwise? Talk about scummy INTENT. This is the third time asking. The last line is also completely whack, do you genuinely think I'm just pursuing OS for reads?? How can I make it more clear that I want him lynched?

I just explained it again.

it's because your trying to get people to jump onto an unexplained lynch on the preface you will help others with another lynch the next day. There is nothing to ensure that you will follow up on such a promise, more so if town wouldn't follow up on it except for the few looking for that lynch.

You go after who you think is scum, yet like I showed before and other times you jump on people with zero explanation on why people should jump on other than you think they are scum.

Anyone can say, "You are scum." Town can explain why their choices are scummy. You have continuously, until OS called you out on it, have been remaining minimal and demanding people follow your lead.

I'm not talking about OS, because you seemed to jump it up when he started calling you out on the BS you have been doing this whole game.

ranmaru · Feb 15, 2011

@X1: Why do you the told you about that? Why would he tell you that so early instead of just keeping it to himself?

ranmaru · Feb 15, 2011

EBWOP:

Typo. Also accidental double post above.

@X1: Why do you think he told you about that? Why would he tell you that so early instead of just keeping it to himself?

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

I'm trying to get people to jump on an unexplained lynch.

Why is that scummy, talk about INTENT. Think about why players do what they do, what they can gain as either faction.

There's no guarantee I will follow up on my promise.

Why is that scummy, talk about INTENT. Think about why players do what they do, what they can gain as either faction.

Here: tell my why this isn't a perfectly good explanation:

I was busy when playing the game, bumping along as I could without time to write a large post but I had a read that OS was scum so I ask others to vote for him. Several others do. I then get more free time and make a good case on Overswarm

Another exercise: Write what you think might be my thought process as I did all those actions which you didn't like. Then before you post it, read it and see how far-fetched it is. If you think its not then post it.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

Ranmaru said:
EBWOP:

Typo. Also accidental double post above.

@X1: Why do you think he told you about that? Why would he tell you that so early instead of just keeping it to himself?

Answering other questions now, but I don't understand what you are talking about who is 'he' and what is he telling me

ranmaru · Feb 15, 2011

Ok. Sorry, "he" as in OS telling you about the indie tell. (When he said he gave you town points if you noticed it)

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

X1-12 said:
I'm trying to get people to jump on an unexplained lynch.

Why is that scummy, talk about INTENT. Think about why players do what they do, what they can gain as either faction.

There's no guarantee I will follow up on my promise.

Why is that scummy, talk about INTENT. Think about why players do what they do, what they can gain as either faction.

Here: tell my why this isn't a perfectly good explanation:

I was busy when playing the game, bumping along as I could without time to write a large post but I had a read that OS was scum so I ask others to vote for him. Several others do. I then get more free time and make a good case on Overswarm

Another exercise: Write what you think might be my thought process as I did all those actions which you didn't like. Then before you post it, read it and see how far-fetched it is. If you think its not then post it.

I find it amusing you haven't considered "intent" when discussing me at all.

You're presenting (yet again) another bad argument.

"I can't be scum because you don't know why I'd do this if I were scum" doesn't work, X1.

Just checking updates while I reread, you'll get a post about you sometime tomorrow probably.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

False statement OS. Every time I talk about how there's no townie reason to act as you did, thats talking about intent, plus I directly talk about intent in these posts.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12189613&highlight=intent#post12189613

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12184114&highlight=intent#post12184114

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12184042&highlight=intent#post12184042

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12183643&highlight=intent#post12183643

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

Ranmaru said:
@X1: Is OS is scum, who do you think would be his scum mate and why?

I think his statements wouldn't matter because even if you did follow up on it, Cdubs probably wouldn't be here to answer that. Maybe this argument is a misunderstanding between the both of you?

At least one of his scummates is probably in this group: Rajam, you, Nich. I will hopefully have time to re-read during the Night phase or something in order to fully discern who it is

Rajam because in his #1120 he votes OS for what seems like a not genuine reason, he says we should look at those who almost provoked a NL, and then votes OS for narrowing down the Lynch candidates - something which is actually good at stopping a NL. He also then unvotes later which makes it look like a distancing vote.

Nich because of the way he openly buddied with OS on D1, I'm not completely sold on this one but it definitely shows a connection - it could be TownNich being played by ScumOS though as I have commented on earlier

You because I think you're scummy anyway (no, don't ask me for reasoning right this second because its not you I want lyched toDay, nor do I have time to do it) and because of posts like the one I quoted, it looks as though you are trying to diffuse this situation between me and OS, presumably because you are trying to save one of us from the lynch.

@Bolded part: Why should someone not follow up on a read because he thinks the player won't be there to respond to it? If everyone did that scum could win every game by lurking. Thats not a valid reason

Ranmaru said:
Ok. Sorry, "he" as in OS telling you about the indie tell. (When he said he gave you town points if you noticed it)

He said it so it looks like he is scumhunting, his intent being to look town, not to catch scum.

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

I don't see anything there... you're saying it's scummy for me to not immediately jump on CDubs case and that there is NO townie reason for doing so while simultaneously admitting that I'm doing productive townie things like asking and answering questions at the same time. This is AFTER I make Zen have an anuerism that's so hardcore he hasn't posted since and, by the way, is one of my scum reads.

Did I also mention that there's a whopping 0 posts from CDubs and a grand total of 15 hours between my post where I explain things to you and when you say "You should be posting about CDubs!!!" and the post preceding that I'm asking about CDubs?

Cuz I don't know if I mentioned that yet or not.

X1-12 · Feb 15, 2011

Overswarm said:
I don't see anything there... you're saying it's scummy for me to not immediately jump on CDubs case and that there is NO townie reason for doing so while simultaneously admitting that I'm doing productive townie things like asking and answering questions at the same time. This is AFTER I make Zen have an anuerism that's so hardcore he hasn't posted since and, by the way, is one of my scum reads.

Stop saying "So you're saying...." Its clear what I'm saying: You should have followed up on CDubs and you didn't. You had time to and you were capable of doing so. You chose to ask some general questions, but how is that more important than following up scumreads? Its not. It makes you look like you're doing stuff, but its not the important things or the most pro-town actions.

Did I also mention that there's a whopping 0 posts from CDubs and a grand total of 15 hours between my post where I explain things to you and when you say "You should be posting about CDubs!!!" and the post preceding that I'm asking about CDubs?

Cuz I don't know if I mentioned that yet or not.

You mentioned that. But it doesn't mean anything. You only explained the read 15 hours before I called you out, but you still HAD the read 94 hours before I called you out. You can't even counter this point and you just keep shouting "no 15 hours 15 hours!!!"

Overswarm · Feb 15, 2011

You mentioned that. But it doesn't mean anything. You only explained the read 15 hours before I called you out, but you still HAD the read 94 hours before I called you out. You can't even counter this point and you just keep shouting "no 15 hours 15 hours!!!"

What makes you think I needed to persue that read before CDubs posted? What makes you think I wasn't concerned with your response?

Also, wht about your Rajam read? You posted you think he might be scum because of a bad vote on me he placed, but haven't done ANYTHING about that O_O

AND RAZIEK! You said he had no genetalia and voted for him, but have abandoned that. Why aren't you pushing your scum reads X1? I bet it's because you're scum, huh? Cuz there's no townie reason to just drop reads like that. You told me I should have been persuing CDubs and Zen at the same time, so I know you don't have a reason O_O

Speaking of which, you seem to have lost your "I'm gonna act like the boss of town and tell people who to vote for with no meaning (and btw that totall isn't scummy everyone!)" attitude since I castrated you. :B

ranmaru · Feb 15, 2011

Raziek had received alot of pressure due to that post.

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