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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

thumbswayup

Smash Master
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wars not make one great
Thanks Scar, sad that we didn't get our best of 5 mm in. By some random luck I may make Genesis 2 and we'll do it there if I do.

Nair will get him many times where the knee will not I think. Then again I just do things and they work so I'm not the best person to ask for advice. Also, more upsmash. Condition them to DI away and then knee the ****er
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Pivot Nair ***** in Falcon dittos ... if you think they're going to Nair after you, pivot Nair right after they start it kicks them between the hitboxes

Too bad I suck vs Fox and Falco
All I know is pivot Nair -> retreat with DI while spaced is probably about as punishable as Marth's retreating double Fair
Pivot Nair in place will get your Upsmashed / Baired if you overuse it
I'm trying to work on my Thumbswayup-like run back grabs but I suck at those still -_-

Nair is pretty mediocre vs wavedash characters (mainly thinking about Luigi and ICs) because they're pretty good at wavedash in -> big move to smack you through your Nair ... it's alright if you Nair them in their deadzone between their shield grab range and their wavesmash range

Nair out of shield to DI back to hit them with the butt is hilarious and extremely effective if they're not expecting it (I use it a lot vs floaties attacking my shield from behind)
Sometimes I use the butt hitbox to cover the roll toward if I do a Nair in front of their shield -> DI back (usually happens when they're cornered on the ledge because you can space the tips of your Nair on their shield and I don't know what they can do about it)

Spacing with the tips of the Nair in Falcon dittos ***** Falcons who don't know about it

Man I love Nair ... a little too much probably :(
 

Mokumo

Smash Ace
Joined
May 6, 2007
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nair is really, really good against fox. falco is lame. you can dodge medium/low lasers with nair of course, and a well spaced nair is harder to punish than pretty much any other of falcon's aerials.

zoso said once that falcon dittos (or the way he plays them, he's super good) is all about nair camping until you can get a grab, and then just ****.

i think nair is falcon's best "approach" because of its range, followed by the back air.
 

thumbswayup

Smash Master
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wars not make one great
Wenbo, the secret is experience. You just sort of pick these things up over time. You're improving rapidly and just need a some more exp. in the matchup. You've got to play as many spacies mains as you can, and learn what works and what doesn't. Eventually you'll find openings in their game and that's when you'll get em. Takes time and dedication.
 

Walt

Smash Ace
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Mar 31, 2007
Messages
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man nair is my favorite move and I spam it way to much, though I think uair is better overall. Against Falco I've had to stop nairing so much because his disjointed hitboxes on nair/bair will beat Falcons nair almost every time. I think if you are pixel perfect the first foot can beat out Falcos sex kick. I don't really approach Falco with any but grabs/boost under high laser/stomp or nair over low lasers. I think Falcons leg sticking out gets you shot by mid lasers during knee and approaching long jumps. There is a spot when close that Falcos feel like they can shot hop straight up and laser. It's just about the range of ftilt, right there you can react and JC grab or get the first hit nair out to kick the gun. But Falco really should just jump foward and nair or be mad safe and jump back laser.
 

_Rocky_

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I feel like nair is best used as a 'herding move' letting you get people where you want them

imo few players have the guts to actually challenge a well spaced nair
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
my main falco gameplan is to try to catch falco when he lasers too close

but your goal at all times is to figure out their fatal flaw, and EVERYbODY has a fatal flaw

whether its them snap up-tilting after a tech in place, spot dodge, roll, random f-smash for no reason

and if he shield pressures you too much and doesn't suck and is good at using lasers,
you gotta platform camp and run around till your shield comes back or ur gunna eventually eat a combo

n-air deep into them if they don't know about crouch cancelling. If they do know about crouch cancel then make sure you space so the tip of your feet hit them or they will crouch into a shine

If you hit them with a n-air both hits at low percents and they crouch and they don't suck, they will 100% expect a grab and do something about it, 70% of falcos spot dodge, the other 30% roll

quick double jump nair or full hop nair is very important especially on FD

it makes your hitbox smaller vs lasers and is a semi ok approach/ defensive spacing as long as you are smart about it

--

nair is probably falcon's 'best' approach but it'll become pretty predictable if you overuse it (i don't give a **** and keep nairing all day). Sometimes it's good to do a short hop knee approach without fast falling and it'll clip them as they try to dash dance ghey you

vs falco i think its essential that you n-air smartly and a lot. the fact it makes you smaller vs lasers is extremely good in itself and if you do Hax n-airs on platforms it can lead to good combos

quick up-air out of shields if you are close are also good because falco is tall and will get kicked in the face

--

but overall vs falco you gotta make every single movement count, I try to readjust my spacing bit by bit betweeen lasers so that if I can shield a laser too close I can quickly jump out and n-air

it's a stupid matchup, but it's barely on the border of beatable and fking up a falco is probably the most satisfying thing in match

====

so basically, vs spacies and especially falco, you gotta have a set gameplan IMO When you are techchasing and they tech in place, depending on my mood I might assume they are going to up-tilt/ spot dodge and do a delayed knee or waveland in place if I think they are going to roll. Depending on what they do you gotta adjust


also, thumbs is top tier in falcon dittos, learned like 4 things after playing him for 1-2 hours

===
===
random falcon tip:

stomp is better than knee if you can cover 1.5 options because stomp covers slightly more space

if their body falls close to the edge, you can cover two options by stomping in between their tech in place spot and the tech towards the edge. You can even NOT fast fall and adjust falcon's position to hit them. Same thing on plats.



Smash is a game of adjusting and mixing it up


Conclusion:

nair is fking good, it's at least top 3, if not falcon's best move and you should learn to use and abuse it to win. It is extremely good and almost unfair vs foxes who don't know how to deal with properly spaced nair spam
 

Aussierob123

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
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Gold Coast - Australia
I actually experimented with this yesterday. My friend plays falco and I have always had trouble against him. My main approach was the same as I play with fox; Nair a lot to get the grab and follow up from it, and it just wasn't working well.

After watching mango I decided to try an extremely aggressive stomp and fair approach where would I only Nair when I was certain it was the only way I could continue to apply pressure.

I think the benefits of stomping a predicted roll ( and if you miss, keep applying pressure with Nair or fair) far outweighs the benefits of Nair and regrab because e opportunity to hit falco hard with a fair and take the stock is just so valuable.

IMO Nair against falco is only helpful in few circumstances and an aggressive pressure game with knee and stomp are the way to go. Even if you are unsuccessful, knees and stomps mess up peoples spacing game which puts you in the advantage.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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hey scar ggs in our money match, it was a shame we didn't get any friendlies in afterward. i'll hit you up next time we're both at a tourney, probably genesis 2.
 

JPOBS

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meh, that was just the fanboy in me. but for real, is there any reason to not consider hax as the best as of now?

lol <3 bladeblaster.
 

Walt

Smash Ace
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Mar 31, 2007
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Scar isn't maining Fox. I don't care what he said that's BS. What will we do without our Falcon Hero? Scarduzio or however it's spelled is too righteous of a name to be a pus.sy fox player.
 

Tomacawk

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I don't know if people ignored my post due to length or it being bad, but please read what I posted about nair vs fox and reply accordingly.
 

Walt

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It made sense I just had nothing to say to it? Like no one really said anything to s2j's or my post but if no one responds I assume that means people agree but don't want to waste time making white noise posts by quoting it and being like "yeah". The overall level of insightfulness wasn't enough for multiple posts of praise but they weren't so terrible that there were multiple posts of hate.
 

Windrose

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what about Nair vs jiggs? I find I'm using it alot against jiggs because I use nair alot of other matchups but I can't break through the bairs when they just patiently space bairs like what hbox does.
 

Tomacawk

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It made sense I just had nothing to say to it? Like no one really said anything to s2j's or my post but if no one responds I assume that means people agree but don't want to waste time making white noise posts by quoting it and being like "yeah". The overall level of insightfulness wasn't enough for multiple posts of praise but they weren't so terrible that there were multiple posts of hate.
you're right
sometimes I forget the magnitude of this thread vs what I said ratio =X
 

Kanelol

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Ohio yeeeee
has anyone else ever reverse ledge-cancelled a weak nair into a double jump dair

because that combos on marth from like 17.5%-18.3%
 

0Room

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Aug 21, 2008
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It made sense I just had nothing to say to it? Like no one really said anything to s2j's or my post but if no one responds I assume that means people agree but don't want to waste time making white noise posts by quoting it and being like "yeah". The overall level of insightfulness wasn't enough for multiple posts of praise but they weren't so terrible that there were multiple posts of hate.
I was going to say something about it
but this sums it up pretty well.

Nair is only good when spaced perfectly in my experience :/
I play with such good players that if I misspace I get wrecked

The only problem is that it's freaking difficult to space perfectly.
That's why I don't really like nair much except on floatier characters.

Like someone else said it's more of a zoning in my particular game than a combo move.
 

Hax

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i'm not the best. if you guys think i'm the best cause Darkrain/SS don't play anymore, then sure i guess.. but to me i'm not the best until i'm better than Darkrain/SS are - regardless of them quitting.

i'm still 3rd
 

linkoninja

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i'm not the best. if you guys think i'm the best cause Darkrain/SS don't play anymore, then sure i guess.. but to me i'm not the best until i'm better than Darkrain/SS are - regardless of them quitting.

i'm still 3rd
Darkrain/SS still play don't they? I thought they were just too busy to go to Pound.
If you think your still 3rd then 3rd isn't that bad, but I know you'll take the crown for best Falcon soon.
 

thumbswayup

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wars not make one great
lol s2j I learned a lot from playing you as well. A lot of it I had forgotten to do, like run out there more and how much weak knee gimps ****. You're definitely amazing, I was actually shocked you didn't beat Chu.

People don't realize how good SS is. I remember praising him back in 08 and everyone on the EC was still saying he sucked. What a bunch of noobs
 

linkoninja

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 26, 2009
Messages
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I don't know if it's just me, but I hate how avatars are strictly from brawl. They should have them for both Melee and Brawl
I don't want Brawl Falco avatars below my name, or Falcon. etc
 

Juggleguy

Smash Grimer
Premium
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Aug 16, 2005
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Ann Arbor, MI
I think in terms of potential to make a deep run at a national tourney as of right now:

1. SS
2. Hax
3. Darkrain
4. s2j
5. Scar
6. GG7

Just my opinion. Top 3 is extremely close though.
 

_Rocky_

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I don't see Darkrain/SS ****** at Nationals and beating Amsah. Aziz come play at Tommys this weekend and bring the volcano.
Getting top 16 at pound 4 (and in ss's case beating armada) is not ****** a national???
 

Shroomed

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jeff is too out of practice atm

and i said "atm" because jeff could still get back into shape

but even then you guys are close to even, but jeff at max is kinda stupid
 

JPOBS

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lol i remember the days before pound 4 when everyone thought Jeff was one of those overrated all-flash no-substance players who was only doing well because he was used to playing in his region so much.

its kinda stupid the blind hate he used to get circa 08-09
 
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