The Sonic Boards Community Guide (Reformat) - General/Moveset

Is that all for Down throw?

... Wanna just throw up my thread in the link description and call it a day? Somebody just happen to recently bump it too, how kind of them.

Nah, but on a more serious note, unless somebody wants to get D-Throw spikes going on, I think I have anything and everything anybody could want to know about D-Throw in that thread. Though if you're going for very brief but still informative, I guess we'll think of something.

Just be sure you don't forget the little "tech" counters, like facing in towards a 2-way platform. Even if the opponent tries (which is rare for me, strange enough), they will just fall through the platform and your throw is safe.

Even though that in itself is still rare, I think it's worth a mention.

Otherwise, there's nothing you could possibly say about this move that is any good other than a pseudo-spike set-up if you happen to somehow catch the opponent at the very edge of the stage, where there is no ground to tech.

And yes, some characters it's safe to use this move on. To others, it's another mix-up/risk-taker, and for others still, you're simply much better off using something else.

If you must, it's a sure-fire set-up for your teammate in a doubles match should you happen to both have the time and the opponent's partner isn't anywhere around/is incapable of punishing either of you two.

Does everyone wanna take a couple stages and test sonic's dthrow on each member of the cast to see where it spikes?
save replays when it works and ill record and assemble it into a vid if there are enough instances where it spikes.

That would be amazing Wedge. Sounds good to me.

That would be great Wedge. Maybe Espy could help you out with that.

Forward throw now. Almost finished with the moveset section.

What exactly are you testing? If Sonic's dthrow will push people under solid stages?

Tesh said:

What exactly are you testing? If Sonic's dthrow will push people under solid stages?

Click to expand...

Yes.

WedginatorX said:

Does everyone wanna take a couple stages and test sonic's dthrow on each member of the cast to see where it spikes?
save replays when it works and ill record and assemble it into a vid if there are enough instances where it spikes.

Click to expand...

I believe that vs Sonic, if the one being thrown has downward DI on the left edge of smashville, it works. It's almost good because in the ditto, they might like doing downward DI to counter a d-throw, and being thrown towards the stage, it feels like a safe thing to do... and then suddenly a stage spike. :v

As for F-throw,

Can someone give me some followup ideas / damage ranges to look for?

My followup game is terrible, and I remember Speed doing a F-throw pseudo chaingrab on me on wifi lol.

Fthrow CG useful on heavy character with slow Fairs/Dairs. At low percents, you can't really change where you are going much with Fthrow.

Fthrowing people off the stage makes it more likely they will DI straight up.

I've seen Fthrow-Fsmash at 0%, Fthrow to Homing attack (this really blows though)

oh god

F-shot

09status

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8030609

SX580. Never forget.

It's his quickest throw. So if you accident grab your team mate it's your best choice. Can also be used as a make shift up throw if your opponent has a habit of DIing towards you when you up throw them.
Leading to fair>spring>up air.

fthrow is quick which means a lot of times if you rush forward afterwads at low % your opponent will AD. Which is cool for a free grab or a FH uair> bair/ fair / uair string. As Chis and KID said fthrow DIed wrong can get us our spring> uair. I also like to fthrow> spring>bair due to the spacing. Fthrow around 70% places people in a nice position for a delayed spinshot> bair or at times a spinshot>uair>spring>uair. People just seem to fall for baits easily due to the quickness of the throw. Like KID did with his Falco vs Kinzer.

Its also a nice throw for the fact that it still gives us our land camping options at a very safe spacing, instead of directly ontop where b - reversing and ish could sometimes mix u up. Gives decents damage and if used in a string you can continue to push your opponent offstage due to its trajectory. Baits are too good with this throw!!!

Fthrow at 0% puts spacies into that cool "omg its not enough knockback for tumble" backflip. It doesn'y actually combo into anything because they can jump out just before they land, but I have yet to have a spacie not get regrabbed out of it. Though Fthrow-Upthrow isn't really better than upthrow -upthrow.

Here's my little schpele on fthrow...
1. Like Chis said, if you grab your teammate, it's probably your best throw option.
2. Vs IC's(As KID said), it's a GREAT seperation tool. Just because IC's can CG, doesn't mean you shouldn't be afraid to grab them. I use it with MK's fthrow, as well.
3. Yeah, yeah. We all know how this feels, you can't seem to nail a kill. So now you're opponent is pushing 200% and he's overshielding, but he's not quite in uthrow kill range. So you're pummeling, and you're afraid he'll mash out. Just fthrow, to keep uthrow fresh, and to put yourself in a position to punish a landing.

Otherwise, there aren't too many uses for it, unless you're willing to overcommit/have a read.

Espy Kasrani said:

In team matches, fthrow also doubles as a handy method of attacking a pursuing secondary opponent. Not sure if Sonic's foot has a hitbox or whatnot, but when it hits the secondary opponent, the hitstun actually gives you enough time to feasibly grab them as well.

I've done it several times in team games myself. It's an incredibly good weapon to utilize in doubles when the circumstances are met.

Click to expand...

Mhm. Most people try to save their teammate from a grab, and get hit by the hitbox from Sonic's foot on fthrow. Depending on the percent, you can usually get a grab/ftilt.

So how are we going to do Spin charge and Spin dash? Because I was planning on having SDSC and ASC uses be looked into at depth later in the guide.

In terms of general discussion on the moves, talk about them together.
And towards the end of it, try to get a writeup of both, separately.

sounds bueno.

Yeah, let's do that.

Spin Charge is 13 frames to release (assuming you don't get the dead charge).

Spin Dash is 17 frames to release as soon as possible).

More fancy frame-data later. I'll probably edit this post. Good time too!

Edit: Alright, time to fix this up.

For the DTilt cheat sheet, this is mainly for the sake of knowledge. I don't know how this will/if it is going to get incorporated into the community guide but from a competitive players' standpoint this I think is worth the read.

So as you all understand, DTilt is a pretty cool move. Decent range, speed, flexibility, and goes into some "pseudo-combos" at low %s. I say pseudo because sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It sort of depends on the character.

Some of you might question or wonder whether or not these DTilt chains work, and if they do, just on who.

The general idea is that the opponent needs to be at low %, needs to be a fastfaller, a heavyweight, or a combination of the aforementioned and then some I left out for the sake of simplicity.

Once again for the sake of saving you the trouble, I will go over the characters that DTilt tends to give Sonic a frame-advantage on hit, from 0%, with no directional influence or moveset decay to alter the landing time (if applicable) (did I mention U-Throw was fresh for the U-Throw cheat sheet? I think I did but just in case I didn't, yeah... Though I would've hoped that'd be obvious, can't be too sure now.).

If a character is not mentioned, then it's safe to assume that they can double-jump/attack/airdodge just as soon as Sonic can act again/before they hit the ground; meaning frame-neutral and no "true" links or combos, especially not into another DTilt.

For the characters that are mentioned, I'll go over their frame disadvantage, and just what options Sonic has (if any).

Sheik - 5-frame advantage.
Fox - 5-frame advantage.
Falco - 5-frame advantage.
Wolf - 4-frame advantage.
Captain Falcon - 4-Frame advantage.

Well hey look at that!

I'm not making that up either. Those are the only characters with no variants to anything are the only ones that have to suffer these sorta character-specific shenanigans. Notice how a 2nd DTilt won't even chain on them, every one of them can Powershield the next one if they get it right.

Then again, who am I not to leave some disclaimers around right?

At the very least, I learned it also works on Captain Falcon. I had figured the spacies and maybe Sheik, but that's awesome at the least.

Everybody else as I've said before is frame-neutral. It's up to you to decide what your follow-up action is. be warned though, in order to think of the best options, you'll need to know each and every characters' frame data to know what not to try. For example, MK has a 2-frame Uair that will beat everything you have since Sonic's fastest attack is his 3-frame jab. Marth can up-B to just power through anything you try and hit you out of it, and so on.

Oh, I should say this though. For Fox, Falco, and Sheik, you can grab them out of your DTilt if they're close enough. None of those three really have anything that's on frame 1 including their spotdodge, so DTilt -> Grab -> throw (preferably U-Throw -> potential follow-up (remember, U-Throw; like DTilt, is an ambigious cross-up on hit!)). It might work for the Captain and Wolf, but I'm not sure about their spotdodge speed if you go for a grab. At the very least though, DTilt -> Jab will work if they're close enough for sure.

You mean the DTilt chains? I suppose, but Sonic doesn't have anything that'll do 10% even. Unless you go with a handicap or a hit. I could eventually get that data myself, but I know for sure that it won't work on anyone else because they could DJ before they hit the ground.

As for Spin-Dash and Spin-Charge's frame data stuff like Spinshot (if debug mode will let me), VSDJ, turn-around, duration, invincibility, all that jazz, I'll get it tomorrow when I'm at a friend's house. I'll probably edit this post if nobody else says anything afterwards.

Hey Kinzer how about after you begin to charge spin dash or spin charge. How long does it take for the release to happen?

B.A.M. said:

Hey Kinzer how about after you begin to charge spin dash or spin charge. {What?} How long does it take for the release to happen?

Click to expand...

... Uhm...?

... Anyway, glad you asked!

I had already posted it, but I might as well go for the full-blown break-down while I'm here.

Warning you though, there's a lot of data here though. I'm not going to bother putting this in collapse since it's all data and I feel very important to at least have the general idea of. My apologies though. I may or may not have said before that I'd have the data done by then. I'm sorry if I'm late, but it's here now. If I never said that, go ahead and ignore this disclaimer. >_>

Start transmission.

First, allow to me go over what's specific to Spin-Dash.

Frames 1-16 are start-up.
After frame 16, you may continue to hold the B-Button for a longer charge or release for the active active hitbox.
The soonest possible first active hitbox is frame 17.
Assuming soonest charge release, Sonic has an active hitbox on Spin Dash (Hop) from frames 17-48.
The aforementioned is if you release the Spin Dash in the air. If otherwise Sonic will go into his Spin Dash Roll on frame 47 on an even level.
Sonic may cancel Spin Dash's charge phase on frame 8 into a shield if grounded. This is also the same frame Sonic may jump-cancel the Spin Dash Charge into a Vertical Spin Dash Jump. With the former, the shield button can be held. With the latter, the jump button must be pressed on frame 7 the earliest; the game will not register any jump inputs beforehand.
If Sonic continues to charge Spin Dash, it takes 45 frames to fully charge itself. It is on this same frame that Sonic can no longer cancel the charge into a shield.
Sonic is invincible from frame 17-22 or the first six frames of Spin Dash Hop.
It only takes Sonic 1 frame to release, jump-cancel, or shield-cancel (assuming Spin Dash has not fully charged in this time).

Now to go over what is exclusive to Spin Charge.

Frames 1-11 are start-up.
Frame 12 checks for a charge. If there is no charge (A.K.A. you're not holding the special button on this frame), Sonic will go into what most, if not everyone has coined "the dead charge."
The dead charge has no active hitbox or charge-seeking frames and frames 13-40 are cooldown lag; for a total of 29 frames of cooldown lag.
If there is a charge, Sonic will acquire a spiky blue aura around him and one charge.
Assuming so, on frame 13 Sonic can release. This is also the soonest first active hitbox if Sonic immediately releases. this is also the same frame where Sonic can Jump-cancel Spin Charge.
It takes Sonic 1 frame to release/jump-cancel.
If Sonic continues to hold the first charge, the charge lasts for 24 frames.
If Sonic does not gain a new charge or release or jump-cancel in this time, frame 25 will be the same as the dead charge.
If Sonic presses the special button again during the previous/current/first charge's duration frames, he will gain a new charge.
Sonic can hold up to three charges.
If three charges are maintained, Sonic's Spin Dash Roll will go at full speed and is at full power.
In order to acquire a full charge, you must press the special button three times afterwards during the first charge's duration frames; remember it's 24.
This means that within the 24 frames you've acquired your first charge in queue, you must press the special button three (3) separate times afterwards, or Sonic will revert into the previous/dead charge.

[I don't know, maybe it's only twice. I could've messed up and not have it register in debug, but AFAIK you need three despite Sonic only having three separate states of Charge in Spin Charge]

Now I'll go into Spin Dash Roll.

It takes Sonic 56 frames to cross the entire Battlefield stage in his Spin Dash Roll on 1 charge of Spin Charge.
It takes Sonic 44 frames to cross the entire Battlefield stage in his Spin Dash Roll on 2 charges of Spin Charge.
It takes Sonic 39 frames to cross the entire Battlefield stage in his Spin Dash Roll on 3 charges of Spin Charge.
Spin Dash's variant of the Spin Dash Roll varies in speed and power moreorless based on how long the charge was held before release (or until it reaches its maximum charge).

[It's not an exact frame figure like 1:1, but if you would like to do the math yourself by all means tell me how many different charges Spin Dash can/should acquire.]

That means if Sonic released immediately, and did not put any influence left or right during the Spin Dash Hop, Sonic will cross the entire Battlefield stage in 43 frames.
The full charge of Spin Dash Roll crosses the entire Battlefield stage in 24 frames assuming Sonic did not put any influence left or right during the Spin Dash Hop.

[maybe 23]

If Sonic tries to turn during Spin Dash Roll, he will take 35 frames to regain a hitbox.
Spin Dash Roll; and any variant thereof, will always be a constant 110 frames regardless of the charge/state/charge's state.

[somebody help me coin this/these please.]

Whatever you can think of; Spin Dash Roll -> (Aerial) Spin Charge and vice versa, (Aerial) Spin Dash (/Hop), Spin Dash turn-around, etc.
Speed does not affect the duration, just the placement of the hitbox/Sonic.
The only thing that can alter the duration of Spin Dash Roll is canceling it into another one of Sonic's free-acting states such as (Vertical) Spin Dash Jump, shield-canceled (Aerial) Spin Charge, DJ-canceling the state of the roll/attack (if applicable), hitlag modifications (A.K.A. you hit something in this time), and obviously being hit out of Spin Dash Roll.
After the Spin Dash Roll wears off, and assuming Sonic didn't go into one of his free-acting states, Sonic takes 33 frames of skidding before he can go into neutral position.

Next up we have (Vertical) Spin Dash Jump (just the state of itself For more information about how to make the transitions into this state, read back).

[Or the rest of the guide/post. Again, the purpose of this post is to gather data, if I didn't properly explain the input, too bad. You should know. This is directed at the veterans.

If you're a newbie don't feel bad. If the guide hasn't already been updated to a certain point, it should better explain each state of Sonic's attacks and how to get into them. I might explain myself (better?) later (in this post or one in the future) or somebody else can probably cover it for me.]

Frames 1-5 are start-up.
You may cancel the (Vertical) Spin Dash Jump state into an aerial on the second frame.
If you did not cancel (V)SDJ into an aerial, the first active active hitbox is on frame 6.
The hitbox lasts from frame 6-34

[Actually, I couldn't find out when the hitbox on it disappeared for sure. I managed to get it hit on frame 34 in a couple of cases and not on frame 35 but I'm not sure if that was a matter of me misspacing/mistiming the attack/hurtbox placement or if it's really 6-34. If no one from here can confirm my number, I don't mind looking like a fool in the Research Lab and seeing if one of those guys can help me get the hard numbers.]

(Vertical) Spin Dash Jump may be double-jump canceled (assuming you had one before you made the transition into the state before the VSDJ) on frame 11.

End transmission.

Whew!

I don't remember when I started this project, but I got all of this in one sitting.

I hope you learned as much as I did. Who knew that Spin Dash Jump and Vertical Spin Dash jump were really the same thing but the only difference is where Sonic is? At least I assume they're the same thing, since I did them both at the same time and they more or less ended parallel on the X-axis and went through the same animation.

I won't even bother to mention what else I learned. Spin Dash Hop has 6 frames of release. I always thought it was five. Heh.

Chis, you got a lotta copypastaing to do this time around. Although it can't be word for word, I want you/anybody else to help me out where I asked/format all this better. It should be obvious where I'm actually talking to you guys since I put them in brackets. Parenthesis are just notes, ignore the fourth wall/put those in the guide as well please.

So with that said (and as promised?), let me follow the format of the guide and see if I can explain these two moves briefly and to the best of my abilities:

"Spin Charge/Dash

[If we're going to separate these into two or put them into one let me know. For now I have them in the same. I know, I'm going against everything I was taught and I am very well aware that these two moves are very different but this is how I did it; if you got a better way to do it by all means. Just make sure you credit me if you used my ideas/data/formatting somewhat as an inspiration to get you to do your thing.]

*Insert nice boat picture here.*
Damage: Varies by charge/state.
Range: Actual hitboxes are poor. Range of attack is near limitless.
Frame Data: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! (look up please...)

Description: Two of Sonic's staple moves in Brawl and in home-console games (Or at least Spin Charge is.). This move allows Sonic to attack opponent directly as a ball with blistering speed.

The moves themselves are really a charge/input. The actual attacks are quite complex but offer a great variety of uses and applications. From one method of approach (although not recommended), to directly beating out some attacks with invincibility, to combo ability and damage-racking, and in some very strange cases actual outright killing.

Those are the direct applications too, and just as those are near limitless in quantity, so are the abstract uses of the moves. Sonic vary rarely has to commit to any one action, and the sheer fact that it all links nicely from into the other allows the Sonic player to mess and mangle with fake-outs to scare the opponent into a committed action from which he can punish thereafter, .

The only problem with these two attacks is that they can be very easy to abuse. If you for example do not have your second jump reserved when you go into these attacks, you are forced to go through some of the phases and more often than not can put you in a very bad situation.

One who can master both is all that much more closer to being a formidable foe against even the most brilliant and talented of opponents.

... Oh~!

You mean an approaching Bair.

I suppose it could work. Weak Bair does 9%, and even the strong one only does 13% but they're still close enough that it could work.

Makes perfect sense. I just wonder if that's what the game has to say about that too.

Kinzer said:

[If we're going to separate these into two or put them into one let me know. For now I have them in the same. I know, I'm going against everything I was taught and I am very well aware that these two moves are very different but this is how I did it; if you got a better way to do it by all means. Just make sure you credit me if you used my ideas/data/formatting somewhat as an inspiration to get you to do your thing.]

Click to expand...

well, I'd go towards putting them in separate posts, mainly because
1) they are different inputs
2) their usage is too different

Kinzer said:

I hope you learned as much as I did. Who knew that Spin Dash Jump and Vertical Spin Dash jump were really the same thing but the only difference is where Sonic is?

Click to expand...

...and the difference is Sonic's initial x velocity.



On a serious note, I'm still not 100% sure what determines how fast the SDR is from down-B:

is it Frequency of taps? (ex: 3 taps in 1 second will go faster than 3 taps in 2 seconds)

is it Number of taps? (4 taps >= 2 taps)

Kinzer Sonic's Airdodge/Aerial/Double-Jump
U-Throw 0%

Character: Airdodge, Aerial, Double-Jump,
Mario -1 +11 +18
Luigi +0 +12 +18
Peach +0 +12 +19
Bowser +0 +12 +18
DK +0 +12 +18
Diddy +0 +11 +18
Yoshi +0 +11 +18
Wario +0 +11 +18
Link +0 +11 +18
Zelda +0 +11 +19
Sheik -1 +11 +19
Ganondorf +0 +11 +18
Toon Link +0 +12 +18
Samus +0 +11 +18
Zero Suit Samus +0 +11 +19
Pit +0 +11 +18
Ice Climbers -1 +11 +18
R.O.B. +0 +11 +18
Kirby +0 +11 +19
Meta Knight +0 +11 +19
King Dedede +0 +11 +18
Olimar +0 +11 +19
Fox -1 +11 +19
Falco -1 +11 +19
Wolf +0 +11 +18
Captain Falcon +0 +11 +18
Pikachu -1 +11 +19
Squirtle +0 +11 +19
Ivysaur -1 +11 +18
Charizard +0 +11 +18
Lucario +0 +11 +18
Jigglypuff -1 +11 +19
Marth +0 +11 +19
Ike +0 +11 +18
Ness +0 +11 +18
Lucus +0 +11 +18
Mr. G&W +0 +11 +19
Snake +0 +11 +18
Sonic +0 +11 +18

When I typed this on Notepad++ it was fine.

I just thought of something.

The thread title should have a reference to the Archie comics. Specifically the Freedom Fighters. Just thinking of the comparisons to me just screams "togetherness" or whatever.

Also, pretty much every column but the second and fifth have that gigantic font in the middle. For consistency's sake, I'd like to see that fixed. Speaking of, the overview is empty, wth is it doing there/good for then? Can I try to fix that? I'm also going to assume ATs will be covered sometime in the future, but at this rate since the last couple of posts have been a while back I'd like to go over something new please...

Also, one of these days, the frame data needs to take out the parts where I refer to myself. It looks so freaking unprofessional when I read how I talk about the (minor?) complications I ran into debug mode in some of them. :X

Double-post because I don't want to forget about this idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r9HGU39qXo&feature=related

Normally in order to test for invincibility/intangibility I just have one character attack on certain frames and see what happens.

Being that Sonic covers himself in a decently large hitbox though, it's kind of difficult to find something with the proper spacing, won't hit Sonic, or other complications I'd normally run into.

Thanks Infzy! With this stolen idea, I can use the lock-on frames for HA to search for the exact frame(s) of Sonic's USmash invincibility! I can't wait to find out just when exactly that is.

Whenever Chis decides to talk about something new, I'll go ahead and contribute then, along with any findings I come across of what has yet to be finished concerning frame-data of Sonic's moveset.

I should also mention this before I forget.

Is there going to be a section that talks about miscellaneous (frame) data? Like Sonic's jump, spotdodge, airdodge roll-dodge, get-up attack, get-up roll, run, trip, techrolls, etc.? I can obviously get those too if needed, and I would definitely like to go over that too/see it covered in the guide eventually.

Please don't make me triple post. ;_;

I won’t be visiting swf frequently soon, not like I’m that frequent already. I was about to update this thread a while ago, but swf **** on me when I tried to edit. Since then this thread has been rather dormant. However I will come back every now and then when I have time, and will get this thread back up to shape. I’d like the thank everyone so far for their patience, contributions and patience.

Hurr, I'm really glad it wasn't just me incurring problems.

Jerry, boobies Cox is a pretty damn good ISP afterall.

... Also I can't help but feel there's something I needed to talk about with you, but I can't remember for the life of me what it was, with anything. If I remember, I'll tell you; if not.... eh, carry on like normal.

Sort of. I'm hanging these red moderating boots so I can spend more time on more pressing matters. So yeah, I won’t be here that often :L

yo KID that dtilt data is kinda messed up. You're factoring in the wrong percentage. at 10-15 (like KID said) is when these combos work. can you test them around those parameters and see what you get?