Match-up Discussion 1 - Falco

Sky Pirate · Apr 5, 2011

FALCO LOMBARDI

Advantage/Disadvantage: -2

With a fast jab, a good projectile, and a chaingrab, Falco is most certainly a threat.
The BBR says that Falco is our worst match-up.
What can we do to change that?

We need the following information:

-STAGES-
"Best" starters for Oli:
"Worst" starters for Oli:
"Best" counterpicks for Oli:
"Worst" counterpicks for Oli:

Notable "move beats move" situations:

Opponent's primary tools:
How we can deal with opponent's primary tools:

Anything else:
(This section includes gimmicks, minor notes, and anything else that isn't covered)

Don't restrict conversation to just these points.
These are just guidelines to help discussion.
Discuss!

Sky Pirate · Apr 5, 2011

Falco Frame Data

Falco Board's Olimar Discussion

If I may provide a little bit of previously stated information:

Notable "move beats move" situations:
- Our Utilt clanks with Falco's Side Special and leaves him vulnerable for 48 frames. The earliest we can act is frame 16, leaving 32 frames for action.

Anything else:
- Laser Lock - Failure to tech a move may result in a laser lock.
- Chaingrab - Falco has a chaingrab on us until 30% damage (assuming his Dthrow is fresh).

QUESTIONS -
- Jab has been called one of Falco's primary tools, but how is it used and how does it affect us?
- Can they Dthrow -> Jab -> Laser lock us? If so, how can we DI to avoid it?

clowsui · Apr 5, 2011

Don't DI down on the jab and there's no laser lock. There's Q2 answered

Turazrok · Apr 5, 2011

Personally I struggle with this matchup a lot, but I've seen the most success on castle siege.

I've tried platform camping to deal with chaingrabbing, but it doesn't let you punish falco effeciently imo. Unless you want to camp until 40% then duke it out. The problem I found was he still ***** me close up. I've tried baiting phantasms into utilt, but it's hard. What one player did to me at whobo was phantasm so he'd wind up behind me then turn around and jab or grab.

You gotta play it like falco in melee imo. Stay at a certain range.

Sky Pirate · Apr 6, 2011

Castle Siege actually sounds like a good idea.
Uneven terrain on the first phase, statues and platforms on the second, and uneven terrain on the third.
What about Lylat, Halberd, or Brinstar?
Lylat's uneven terrain and extra yellows sound useful.
Halberd has that dip in the middle and lets us kill early, but Falco has that DACUS.
I hate Brinstar as a stage, but it might help with camping him. I don't know.
Should we strike/ban FD?

I wish I knew more about this match-up.
Apparently Larry likes to air dodge to jab to get in.
Can we Usmash OoS after any of his jabs?

Asa · Apr 6, 2011

derp i'm bad

Dnyce · Apr 6, 2011

I can't tell if Asa is intentionally attempting to derail discussion... or is posting false claims just to troll the community and prevent advancement of the metagame.

Regardless, please don't post matter-of-fact statements when you are not 100% certain - it hurts more than helps.

Asa · Apr 6, 2011

what is wrong? i don't troll and i believe these things to be true. i have experience in the falco matchup.

This is a discussion, after all, and if you think I'm wrong, then correct me, so I can learn >->

Sky Pirate · Apr 6, 2011

What Asa said.
Just running in and saying that he's wrong REALLY isn't helping either.

Dnyce · Apr 6, 2011

Asa said:
what is wrong? i don't troll and i believe these things to be true. i have experience in the falco matchup.

This is a discussion, after all, and if you think I'm wrong, then correct me, so I can learn >->

Believing things to be true does not make them true. Experience may justify why you have an opinion on something, but I know for a fact you posted a lot theory craft as fact... which was my beef. Feel free to post opinions, I'm just saying check your facts. ;o

Asa · Apr 6, 2011

believing things to be true would make them my opinion IMO

what's your opinion on stages?

Llumys · Apr 7, 2011

Asa said:
believing things to be true would make them my opinion IMO

Wow.

I apologize for my lack of contribution to the discussion, but I had to address that sentence somehow. Carry on so I can continue lurking, please.

Dnyce · Apr 7, 2011

Yeah...
I didn't know how to reply to it either, lol. Great job guys with discussion!

Sky Pirate · Apr 7, 2011

Getting a bit off-topic.

EDIT: O-kay, to put us back on-topic:

Punishing Bair from a Platform by Greward/Vocal

A Bunch of Random Falco Stuff by RichBrown

More Random Falco Stuff by RichBrown

How to DI Falco's Jab by RichBrown

Some Random Grab Stuff by RichBrown

RichBrown said:
We can duck under Falco's reflector
So if he's watching your lineup and you have a purple next, jump at him, then duck

RichBrown said:
Our dtilt beats Falco's upB btw.

RichBrown said:
We have dthrow-purple toss-purple toss-regrab on Falco, just figured that out a second ago

Remember, dthrow-dair-usmash is guaranteed too

RichBrown said:
With super campy falcos, I learned that it's best to literally never EVER jump. This doesn't work on all Falcos, only the ones that really laser camp. You can just do grounded sideB and Fsmashes to keep them away. Try to learn their sideB habits and bait the sideB while putting yourself in a position to punish it.

Something I recently found that really works is when Falco is recovering, put myself at a position that will make him want to sideB on the stage, but face away from falco. That way the moment it hits my shield I can grab because when he lands he will be past me.

-STAGES-

Hilt said:
My usual counterpick for Falco is Delfino. It's a naturally bad stage for him, it's difficult for him to approach us on the stage, he can't really laser camp us well, and the platform of the main stage messes up his recovery.

Smashville works well too because we can camp the platform until he lasers us to 20%, to avoid the cg. Uhh Frigate works okay against them tbh. I'm not sure what else... Rainbow Cruise?

But yeah Delfino's definitely my #1 counterpick against falcos.

RichBrown said:
I like PS1 against Falco as well, although I CP that against almost everyone due to personal preference.

Hilt said:
SV isn't a free win for falco. The platform is amazing for us at the early parts of each stock. And of course you should be camping all day and taking advantage of the moving platform. Do what you need to do twin. Camping the platform removes the possibility of him being able to chain grab us out of a stock. Camp the platform until he lasers and nairs you to about 25%, all the while tossing pikmin (grounded) and fsmashing off the side. Be careful though because if the Falco lands on the platform and it's moving in the direction he's facing, he can CG us without him having to move, and I think he gets one more grab from it. But he can't spike us off the side at least, unless we're standing at the edge when he grabs us, or the platform reaches the end of the trip around the time he dthrows us. And Falco takes better advantage of BF's platforms than we can. SV is the best neutral that Falco will allow you to take him to, in a five starter set. Seven and Nine sets, it gets more and more in our favor.

Delfino is the best stage to take falco to. Halberd is okay, but nothing dramatic. But Delfino is definitely, without a doubt, the best stage we can take Falco to. Frigate is okay as well. Rainbow Cruise is a great choice, definitely better than Frigate. Lylat is misunderstood, and is definitely not as bad as people think it is for Falco. It's not bad for us, but it's nothing amazing. Castle Siege isn't bad. PS1 is okay. Smashville is a good choice, and is my second CP against Falcos, if they know to ban Delfino. I can give reasons if you'd like.

dabuz said:
SV, castle siege, halberd, lylat, in that order IMO (never faced falco on delfino though)

if olimar camps the moving platform correctly, falco can do nothing as long as olimar focuses on being safe, falco has to fullhop or double shorthop to land on the platform, so its easy to see him coming on, he pretty much can't approach us on the platform until its hovering over the stage which is when olimar can use a mix of shielind attacks and taking like 2% poke damage, trying to dair falco out of his attacks, or just jumping away, when it is hovering offstage, we can just side a lot and grab every possible approach falco can have except for jumping offstage to get under the platform, which should never work for falco if olimar spaces and reacts right

for castle siege, 2/3 forms mess up almost all of falco's game, the third part is pretty bad for us though in this MU, as everyone knows, i really like this stage so most people will disagree on this

halberd is the generic olimar CP, no special notes, if you like YI, you should like halberd even more

lylat's platforms and the fact is doesn't hurt our recovery or spacing makes it good because falco only gets disadvantaged by itt

How much of this is still true?

I'm tired, I'll go on another search rampage in a little.

Dnyce · Apr 7, 2011

CloverLeaf said:
*stuff*
How much of this is still true?

How to DI Falco's Jab by RichBrown

That's outdated for sure.

Jiom · Apr 7, 2011

^
Ya I've been using falco a lot lately and all falco has to do is shield once you are to far away, sometimes he can just restart the jab combo to.

Ok if falco is around 80% and you have him off stage, charge up smash until he is level with you horizontally, that way if he phantasms you kill him, if he goes to the ledge yo can stil have time to f smash spam edgegaurd, one thing I like to do o's SH dair cuz he like to ledge hop side b.

Sky Pirate · Apr 11, 2011

O-kay, I think this one's going to go up for rediscussion.
I asked Rich to give his two cents, but he didn't respond. T_T

Cracker1204 · Apr 11, 2011

uhm i've been having trouble with camping on SV platform, also because falco can simply pc on it so can we still camp on that thing really?

Sky Pirate · Apr 11, 2011

I'm fairly certain you can. Just watch for when he approaches.

Tin Man · Apr 11, 2011

Alright I got some time on my hands now, so I'm going to put it to use with everything I know so far on this matchup.

Falco's Chain grab

Falco was deemed the worst match up for Olimar by the BBR. I believe one of his strongest tools against us is the chain grab, because it can put us in an awful situation depending on where we are grabbed. If grabbed close enough to an edge, it might kill us. I believe Falco has 4 guaranteed grabs on us, with a guaranteed spike. Assuming you are grabbed, and your going towards the edge, SDI towards the stage so that when you're spiked, you land on the stage rather than falling off it. Alternatively, you can upB after you get spiked in an attempt to tether the ledge. Do this after Olimar 's vertical height is even with the edge. I prefer the SDI because its proven to be more reliable to me than tethering the stage. Just be careful for Falco's follow ups. There are a lot of mixups he can use to get more damage as your laying on the floor.

Outcamping falco/Middle range combat

In terms of camping. Falco can either Short Hop Double Laser (SHDL) or just standing and spamming laser. If he's SHDLing, do standing pikmin throws. You will out camp him. You must be in range for this however. If he spamming grounded laser, then short hop pikmin toss. You will out camp him. He will out camp you if you grounded toss while he grounded laser's or if you short hop toss while he SHDL's. When he is SHDLing, be careful. Its quite versatile, and he can do anything out of it. Considering you have to be at a certain range to hit him, you will be in DACUS range (unless you have all whites). DACUS is one of Falco's method's for attacking you at medium range. Even though that's where Olimar is at his strongest, you're still vulnerable. Thankfully in this situation you will be grounded meaning you can send in an Fsmash to cover yourself. Try and be at a distance where the Fsmash will hit Falco anyways. It also covers his sideB option since you can hit Falco out of it with the Fsmash. As with most characters, do try not to short hop toss when too close to your opponent. It leaves you vulnerable. Instead only do so when he's spamming grounded laser. Another thing to be careful for is the reflector. Try not to get hit by it by camping just outside its range. if a pikmin is latched onto you, thats quite laughable because Olimar is especially good at getting them off himself. Almost any move Olimar uses (maybe every) that doesn't require a pikmin to create a hit box can get pikmin off. I jab personally. Whistling works too but frame data wise, jab is faster.

When to grab

You can also attempt to grab at medium range but it leaves you a little vulnerable depending on his actions. Its ideal to grab when attempting to punish one of his moves. Either punishing his phantasm, or his landing, or pivot grabbing him out of his short hop, aerial approaches. If the Falco is bad, you can grab him outside of his phantasm because he doesn't know how to space it vertically. Otherwise simply grab to punish.

Where not to be

Long range and close range. Long range will get you out camped, and close range will get you jabbed or grabbed. Falco will phantasm as a mix up when you get to a desired medium-close range. This will be to put you in the air, which is also horrible. The phantasm also eliminates pikmin that are latched onto Falco. It also puts both of you in long range combat, which is not where you want to be. Alternatively, Falco can approach and close the gap to close range. Falco can safely shield pressure Olimar so that his Dair, Bair, and Nair are spaced well enough that we can't grab or Usmash OoS to punish. Pivot grabbing these aerial approaches works well. Fsmashing also works.

Falco's Jab

If Falco is jabbing your shield, its guaranteed damage for him. SDI up and away, then Fair him out of it. Worst case scenario, he shields it, but the idea is that you forced him to stop his Jab's. Then theres the slapchop combo, or the jab cancelled jab's. Never had a Falco actually do this to me, but hopefully it can be escaped in the same way. Possibly you must SDI through it and land on the other side. It sounds dangerous though because you'd be in grab range since he can easily turn around and get you, or shield you aerial and since you'll be close, he can punish. This is all conceptually btw.

Other properties of the matchup

You can kill Falco at like 115 quite reliable with anything thats not white. About 90ish I believe with a purple. Purple Uthrow is probably 120 (this all assumes your on FD or something).

Nairing into falco at low percents (assuming it connects) will not lead to comboes. His fall speed is too much. He can shield before we can follow up. My solution is to nair then pivot grab.

Stages

According to the unity rule set. For a starter, strike FD then you personal preference of BF or SV. There has been some mention about platform camping on SV however he can platform cancel then CG you. I enjoy the overall layout of Battlefield more. It makes recovering from edge guarding easier from Olimar. Also, if you guys haven't watched this, I suggest you do. Theres also a blog on it. Olimar doesn't suffer from it. This vvvvvvv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyFtJDxsqMs&feature=feedu

So basically, Falco will strike YI/LC cause they are bad for him. you pretty much control where the match goes.

Falco's strongest stages would be FD, and frigate. I say this because getting CG'd off the right side of frigate isn't good at all. No ledge to come back to. The 1st stage is actually really terrible. The second stage kinda ruins Olimars ground and camping game with the terrain. The illusion (iirc) can still hit you if your standing in the middle and he short hops it very slightly. Perhaps you can duck it. Not to sure.

Olimar has quite a few stages at his disposal. Delfino, Halberd, Yoshi's Island. PS1, and Lylat are also good. Olimar adapts better than Falco. His projectile can navigate terrain better with its arc properties, and different trajectories/speeds. and most importantly. a lot of those stages make it difficult for Falco to phantasm. Phantasm is a very important tool for Falco, so Taking that away is critical (or at least lessening its viability).

Thats all for now

Cracker1204 · Apr 12, 2011

wow didn't know some chars couldn't get out of an edge slip xD so if this happens you get a guaranteed dair, jab lock setup (with a nair cancel or smash followup or w/ e you like) sweet.

Denti · Apr 12, 2011

psh, this MU is +3

Tin Man · Apr 13, 2011

In terms of air game. Olimar can whistle everything Falco has (except maybe the Fair, which isn't practical for Falco to use anyways). Olimar's Uair beats anything Falco got in the air. Just throwing this in there.

Greward · Apr 13, 2011

falco ***** olimar

that's all folks
i'm starting to use ganondorf in this matchup its easier :D

Dnyce · Apr 13, 2011

Tin Man said:
In terms of air game. Olimar can whistle everything Falco has (except maybe the Fair, which isn't practical for Falco to use anyways). Olimar's Uair beats anything Falco got in the air. Just throwing this in there.

In terms of ground game we can also power shield everything Falco has. Match-up should be +4.... that bird neva had a chance

*dies*

Cook · Apr 14, 2011

Tin Man said:
In terms of air game. Olimar can whistle everything Falco has (except maybe the Fair, which isn't practical for Falco to use anyways). Olimar's Uair beats anything Falco got in the air. Just throwing this in there.

Actually, f-air is really good for gimping, so if you can't whistle it then that is problematic.

D Who? · Apr 26, 2011

Tin Man said:
In terms of air game. Olimar can whistle everything Falco has (except maybe the Fair, which isn't practical for Falco to use anyways). Olimar's Uair beats anything Falco got in the air. Just throwing this in there.

I don't mean to re-open this discussion, but my brother plays Falco, and I'm an Oli main. I don't want to say you're wrong, but most of the time, Falco's Nair beats everything I have. Unless I'm doing it wrong?
So to correct me, what does his nair and bair beat?

And another piece of information/theorycrafting I stumbled upon, when you grab falco off of a ledge, or if he's just hanging out there from a grab, let him release and then jump out to spike his UpB and if he SideB's to the stage, just punish accordingly.

Dnyce · Apr 27, 2011

It would be wise not to accept most of what tinman says

D Who? · Apr 27, 2011

Dnyce said:
It would be wise not to accept most of what tinman says

Noted. Thank you.
But, is there a thread where I can find what beats what? It would be helpful

RichBrown · May 16, 2011

Well this MU sucks

I'm starting to find that Dtilt is kinda good, it beats sideB and it's easier to land on a sideB than Utilt is, so throw out Dtilt from time to time, particularly when Falco is on the ledge. Falco's that perfect height to where you can follow up Dtilt with fair or whatever.

You pretty much wanna stay on the ground, and try not to shield unless you absolutely have to. We get destroyed by shield pressure. Lately I've just been trying to pivot grab things. Or do the thing where right when they are about to land, you dash away, then stutterstep fsmash.

We can duck under Falco's reflector, I completely forgot about this lmao. If Falco is trying to camp with reflector, just get close, duck under it (or you can straight up block it) and then **** him. Most Falcos don't do this though lol

Basically, treat Falco like ICs. You CANNOT get grabbed, or you could very well lose a stock. Even if you survive the CG-spike, if you get spiked on stage it's too easy for Falco to follow up. One grab could easily lead to 70%, and those are mistakes you cannot afford.

If you whistle Falco's bair, you get a free hit. I usually go for nair because it's safest but now that I'm thinking about it trying to line up a dair is actually a really **** idea (man I should post here more lol)

Tin Man · May 20, 2011

Dnyce said:
It would be wise not to accept most of what tinman says

You trolling again dude ._.

Match-up Discussion 1 - Falco

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing

Smash Legend

Smash Master

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Master

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing

Smash Apprentice

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing

Smash Hero

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Hero

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