Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
You so rarely need to shield vs Ganon in the first place though ... what exactly does Ganon do to pressure you into shield <_<
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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Grounded attacks and Fair. A good Ganon will fight Falcon point blank, that is to eliminate the gayness of DD.. there's a lot of things Ganon can do to shutdown Falcon. The matchup on Ganon side is reaction based a lot I find. Because I know Falcon will try to look for a laggy move from Ganon to get a grab, or force Ganon to shield to also get a grab.. I also know grabs sucks for Ganon so ill even counter-attack grabs with dair for example.
Yes ganon's Ftilt is much stronger, with much more range. With his waveland distance factored in, that'll easily be the bottom 3/4ths of Battlefield. If you wan I can post some of the stuff Kage PMed me about, when we were talking about Falcon/GanonThis is a nice summary
I read about your idea for a guide discussing specific matchups. It looks like you are well on your way :D
If you make the guide you should start with a summary like this, then get into detail.
I think it would really benefit new players (like me) from a general overview of the matchup, then specifics.
Good Job! I hope you make it into the BR since I actually read ur post
One question though
what's the difference between Ganon's and Falcons F-Tilt?
Ganons is stronger obviously, more range I think? Falcons is faster though? Anything else I'm missing?
As far as wishing me luck on BR, thanks a lot! I hope I get in, but it's not a big deal if I don't. I'll just use it as more motivation to get better
D
Deleted member
Guest
you seriously don't need to dash dance against ganon
i play completely pressure based and depending on how good ganon is is how much free reign you get
it comes down to how defensive/gay ganon is and if your mechanics are fine then all you gotta do is adjust spacing, ganon really can't do much when you are in his face n-airing, crouch cancel won't work because falcon has very long legs if you n-air correctly
platform shenanigans suck unless you never experienced them, it is also invariably a free hit for falcon if they try to hit me with platform waveland gimmicks
you can also literally 0 to death regrab if ganon never DI's to edge-cancel get on a plat
so much easier to tech chase as falcon as ganon, only prodigal ganons i've played like linguini were freaking good at tech chasing
so
if you lose to ganon
you either don't know the matchup
or the ganon players better
i play completely pressure based and depending on how good ganon is is how much free reign you get
it comes down to how defensive/gay ganon is and if your mechanics are fine then all you gotta do is adjust spacing, ganon really can't do much when you are in his face n-airing, crouch cancel won't work because falcon has very long legs if you n-air correctly
platform shenanigans suck unless you never experienced them, it is also invariably a free hit for falcon if they try to hit me with platform waveland gimmicks
you can also literally 0 to death regrab if ganon never DI's to edge-cancel get on a plat
so much easier to tech chase as falcon as ganon, only prodigal ganons i've played like linguini were freaking good at tech chasing
so
if you lose to ganon
you either don't know the matchup
or the ganon players better
D
Deleted member
Guest
whoevers better wins
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Haha <_<
I think the basic rundown is both characters are very good at stuffing approaches and neither has a terribly great approach in this matchup
I think neutral game for both parties revolves around incrementally trying to push them to a corner and eventually someone has to do something or risk giving up ground
You can call Nairs with side-b but use it sparingly
Comboing Marth is pretty straightforward
Edgeguarding Marth is pretty easy
Lightshield if he has to up-b -> reverse knee or Dair -> reverse knee
Otherwise ledgehop stall - doing the backward jump is pretty good for not getting hit by the up-b sweetspot, dropping lower and doing the regular jump is good for if they do it early and try to float down as long as you don't get it
If he side-b's too close / enters your Bair -> regrab ledge range you get a free invincible Bair - really good for when he can get back using only his jump
Always DI away unless you're getting Fsmashed but I guess that applies to everyone so hopefully you already know that haha
You can jump out of most Uthrow combos I think ... it's kinda wonky (DI Utilts with the trajectory of the sword to get out)
If you have the option to recover super high DI his Fsmash / whatever he does and you should live 'til 150+ unless he manages to tipper yo
When you're forced to recovery lower it should be an easy edgeguard for Marth
I think the basic rundown is both characters are very good at stuffing approaches and neither has a terribly great approach in this matchup
I think neutral game for both parties revolves around incrementally trying to push them to a corner and eventually someone has to do something or risk giving up ground
You can call Nairs with side-b but use it sparingly
Comboing Marth is pretty straightforward
Edgeguarding Marth is pretty easy
Lightshield if he has to up-b -> reverse knee or Dair -> reverse knee
Otherwise ledgehop stall - doing the backward jump is pretty good for not getting hit by the up-b sweetspot, dropping lower and doing the regular jump is good for if they do it early and try to float down as long as you don't get it
If he side-b's too close / enters your Bair -> regrab ledge range you get a free invincible Bair - really good for when he can get back using only his jump
Always DI away unless you're getting Fsmashed but I guess that applies to everyone so hopefully you already know that haha
You can jump out of most Uthrow combos I think ... it's kinda wonky (DI Utilts with the trajectory of the sword to get out)
If you have the option to recover super high DI his Fsmash / whatever he does and you should live 'til 150+ unless he manages to tipper yo
When you're forced to recovery lower it should be an easy edgeguard for Marth
Divinokage
Smash Legend
ryankam10
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2009
- Messages
- 279
Lol haha. when I'm up against the side of the stage as falcon vs ganon, I'm like fk what do i do, he keeps jabbing me with his one frame jab, if I jump up i'm gunna get uaired lol
although tbh i dont actually have too much trouble beating ganon, I just certain situations (such as when he does anything into his jab) annyoing lol
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
It was even cuz you guys were high as ****.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
LOL, I'll show you high!It was even cuz you guys were high as ****.
CF vs Marth, this is very very true. This is an absolutely even match up if there ever was on, focusing on grabs and edgeguards.
If someone gets offstage they're dead.
More or less this. The edgeguarding really becomes a guessing game of "is he going to sweet spot the ledge or not?"
Once I get the Marth/Falcon MU, I think that I'll spend a lot of time on that, since it's so crucial to the MU.
I feel like we should really get started on that MU thread again. It's kind of stagnant atm.
Rather than focus on MUs everyone's really having problems with, [spacies] we should knock out the ones we know first [Marth, Ganon, etc]
Just my opinion
It's actually 3 frames. I know that's a minuscule difference but every frame counts. I think the best option there is just to DD and wait for him to do something dumb like Fair
Just make sure to watch out for his ftilt, the range difference between his jab and ftilt are quite substantial
CaptainNanD0
Smash Journeyman
yo guys falcon vs marth
falcon>marth
falcon>marth
Falcon's grab followups on Marth > Marth's grab followups on Falcon
D
Deleted member
Guest
ur the only ganon that can possibly change my mind lol
i've played the relevant ones, rockcrock, linguini...
dunno lol guess we'll wait till genesis 2
Sorry Kage, gonna have to bet on my boy s2j on this one
CaptainNanD0
Smash Journeyman
i got a MM with Kage at zenith, once i take down the warrior ill show you guys how just grabbing ganon obliterates him
i havent played linguini, but ive played rockcrock and kage, and with as much respect as possible for rockcrock, theres a big difference between rockcrocks anti falcon game and kage's
kage was significantly harder, i just remember spacing a nair and he full jump daired my toe and being like wow come on
kage was significantly harder, i just remember spacing a nair and he full jump daired my toe and being like wow come on
Divinokage
Smash Legend
LOL, I forgot about that situation.. I guess it's pretty good.
Oh ya I'm def going to Zenith, can't wait to see you all there.
Sraigux
Smash Journeyman
So when I use an aerial (say captain falcon's nair) and am unable to follow up quickly enough and they hit the ground, what can I use to follow up if they don't tech?
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
knee
duh
duh
I play linguini and rockrock on a constant basis and i have to say that dash dancing to wait for a whiff aerial (which will happen cuz ganons create walls. just make sure not to get baited) and grab to **** is the most effective. on rockrock spacing nairs work but on linguini they def dont because he frame perfect u-air oos which beats nair. or he can do wut bigD said and fullhop dair to beat falcons nair. I agree with some things that S2J says but idk.... i'm from Florida, ganon is literally my fav matchup lol.
Grab ***** all ganons. Nairs **** mediocre ganons. Down throw to regrab or tech chase and up throw to nair, uair, or knee at certain percentages.
Oh yea i forgot to say approaching with really fast uairs also **** ganons. its better than nairing imo.
Grab ***** all ganons. Nairs **** mediocre ganons. Down throw to regrab or tech chase and up throw to nair, uair, or knee at certain percentages.
Oh yea i forgot to say approaching with really fast uairs also **** ganons. its better than nairing imo.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I'm so angry my set vs Redd wasn't recorded T_T
I had some janky rising Uair -> falling Bair -> up-b combo or something ... sigh
I have me getting whooped by Thumbs caught on camera though ... have to rethink my Falcon dittoing
I had some janky rising Uair -> falling Bair -> up-b combo or something ... sigh
I have me getting whooped by Thumbs caught on camera though ... have to rethink my Falcon dittoing
Falcon Dittos are easily my worst MU :/
Falcon just does weird things that I don't react well too
On the plus side I attended a tournament and took first place :]
ASU has a lot of hidden talent, and I'm glad to have seen that! We apparently have a closet Jiggs [need practice on] and Peach [one of my favorite MUs], as well as a Spacies player [whom, despite being actually fairly good, I cleaned out in 1:13, go figure] This is good stuff.
Oh
btdubs
Go Kage
But also
Go Falcon
Falcon just does weird things that I don't react well too
On the plus side I attended a tournament and took first place :]
ASU has a lot of hidden talent, and I'm glad to have seen that! We apparently have a closet Jiggs [need practice on] and Peach [one of my favorite MUs], as well as a Spacies player [whom, despite being actually fairly good, I cleaned out in 1:13, go figure] This is good stuff.
Oh
btdubs
Go Kage
But also
Go Falcon
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well I did a best of 101 vs SSF that lives around here, simply another guy that got 51-2 by me again and i recorded it lol. I did go Falcon more this time... perhaps there could be some interesting stuff for you guys to use in there.
D
Deleted member
Guest
lol
i wish i had someone who'd do best of 101s
just that i do it unconsciously actually
i wish i had someone who'd do best of 101s
i probably do dash dance
just that i do it unconsciously actually
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Hey if you want to do a really long MM, I wouldn't mind either. =P
D
Deleted member
Guest
i'm down haha
lets meet sometime and do a best of 21+
that way if i do win i won't win through gimmicks, but by being better
lets meet sometime and do a best of 21+
that way if i do win i won't win through gimmicks, but by being better
Divinokage
Smash Legend
If you destroy someone really badly, those 51-2, only took around 2 hours lol.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
best of 21? Hm.. Maybe less than 2 hours, idk. =P
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
where da vids @ kage?
Walt
Smash Ace
I basically do first to 255 KO stars with bob$ most nights we both have free. We don't have any set rules just that's usually what happens. I think I usually have about half as many as he does? But that means I'm getting 2 stocked every game lol.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ah it's not uploaded yet, when SSF is on, I'll talk to him.
The Upholder
Smash Journeyman
You could lose every game and still win by that rule >_>
Grinin
Smash Journeyman
Kage vs S2J best of 21 MM at Genesis, start your die bets!
Yo Kage, are you watching Gurren Lagann right now? Couldn't help but notice the avatar.
Yo Kage, are you watching Gurren Lagann right now? Couldn't help but notice the avatar.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ah no, I already watched the whole thing twice.. It's just a reminder to keep moving forward towards the heavens and universe. lol. =)