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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

0Room

Smash Lord
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now that i've become facebook friends with a lot of people that i've met at local tournaments, i see people like mango, pc chris, mew2king, and A TON OF OTHER SMASHERS on my recommended list. its nuts.
Yeah it's really interesting. Why facebook does that idk, but it does.

As far as punching the other guys, that's why I was asking for the Matchup. It's not okay to just get angry and take it out on the player. We've got to improve as a whole and beat them consistently. [clenches fist stoically]

YEAH.
:p

But in all seriousness, let's show people why Falcon can be really good against Puff. Not by johning like everyone was doing in the beginning, but by legitimately destroying them in game.
 

Strong Badam

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I often see Falcons Knee into jab on people's shield. Can someone confirm that an lcancelled Knee is unpunishable by shieldgrabs? What about for other aerials like first or second hit nair, or uair?
yawn... at least I don't actually have to boot up AR for this stuff anymore. Assuming a fresh Knee...
Knee has 13 frames of hitlag for victim, 9 frames of hitlag for attacker (electric hitlag). +4
Knee has 9 frames of l-canceled landlag. -9
Knee does 18 damage and therefore has 10 frames of shieldstun. +10
Overall, +5 on shield.
Jab comes out frame 3. You have a 2 frame window to jab without them doing anything, although no one has a 1 frame Out of Shield option (unless you count YOSHI'S ROLL AWWW YEAHH) so it's really 3 frames against most characters, 4 frames against Falcon/Zelda and 5 against Bowser.

I guess I'll do the calculation for the other aerials... I'll ignore hitlag for the rest because it'll be equal for both Falcon & the victim due to no electric attacks.

Bair:
14 damage so 8 frames of shieldstun. +8
Landing lag of bair is 9. -9.
Overall, -1. Fail.

Uair:
13 damage so 7 frames of shieldstun. +7
Landing lag of U-air is 7. -7
Overall, 0. Fail.

Nair:
First hit:
6 damage so 4 frames of shieldstun. +4
Landing lag of nair is 7. -7
Overall, -3. Fail.

Second hit:
6 damage so 4 frames of shieldstun. +4
Landing lag of nair is 7. -7
Overall, -3. Fail.

Both hits:
6 damage x 2 so 8 frames of shieldstun. +8
Have to be in air for at least 8 frames (second hitbox starts frame 20 - final frame of first box is 12, 20-12 is 8 frames). -8
Landing lag of nair is 7. -7.
Overall, -7. Fail.

Dair:
15 damage so 8 frames of shieldstun. +8
Landing lag of dair is 12 frames. -12.
Overall, -4. Fail.

Dair/Both Hits of Nair are the only aerials that can be punished by shield grab if performed perfectly. one hit nair -> jab can only be punished by shine OoS from Fox or Falco (come out frame 4 or 6 for Fox and Falco, respectively).
 

superherox

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yawn... at least I don't actually have to boot up AR for this stuff anymore. Assuming a fresh Knee...
Knee has 13 frames of hitlag for victim, 9 frames of hitlag for attacker (electric hitlag). +4
Knee has 9 frames of l-canceled landlag. -9
Knee does 18 damage and therefore has 10 frames of shieldstun. +10
Overall, +5 on shield.
Jab comes out frame 3. You have a 2 frame window to jab without them doing anything, although no one has a 1 frame Out of Shield option (unless you count YOSHI'S ROLL AWWW YEAHH) so it's really 3 frames against most characters, 4 frames against Falcon/Zelda and 5 against Bowser.

I guess I'll do the calculation for the other aerials... I'll ignore hitlag for the rest because it'll be equal for both Falcon & the victim due to no electric attacks.

Bair:
14 damage so 8 frames of shieldstun. +8
Landing lag of bair is 9. -9.
Overall, -1. Fail.

Uair:
13 damage so 7 frames of shieldstun. +7
Landing lag of U-air is 7. -7
Overall, 0. Fail.

Nair:
First hit:
6 damage so 4 frames of shieldstun. +4
Landing lag of nair is 7. -7
Overall, -3. Fail.

Second hit:
6 damage so 4 frames of shieldstun. +4
Landing lag of nair is 7. -7
Overall, -3. Fail.

Both hits:
6 damage x 2 so 8 frames of shieldstun. +8
Have to be in air for at least 8 frames (second hitbox starts frame 20 - final frame of first box is 12, 20-12 is 8 frames). -8
Landing lag of nair is 7. -7.
Overall, -7. Fail.

Dair:
15 damage so 8 frames of shieldstun. +8
Landing lag of dair is 12 frames. -12.
Overall, -4. Fail.

Dair/Both Hits of Nair are the only aerials that can be punished by shield grab if performed perfectly. one hit nair -> jab can only be punished by shine OoS from Fox or Falco (come out frame 4 or 6 for Fox and Falco, respectively).
Huh...
I never knew that the spacies' shines come out with a 2 frame difference

I have a question:
Can you Uthrow -> Knee spacies at around 30-80%?
I always seem to wiff those because falcon jumps like .01 seconds too late
also does thunder effect frames or hitstun?
 

Strong Badam

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why did you quote my entire post :(
they don't. their jump startup is different. Shine OoS is jump -> shine on first airborne frame; Fox is airborne frame 4 and Falco is airborne frame 6.
Can't really test the second one myself since I don't have anyone to DI for me. Uthrow -> Knee SHOULD combo at 80% though, but if not, go for Fsmash.
also does thunder effect frames or hitstun?
thunder? you mean electric element on attack? it only affects the amount of hitlag on a character. for the victim, it's 1.5x normal. for the attacker, it's still 1.0x. it grants frame advantage to the attacker.
 

Strong Badam

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I haven't tried any of these, but they seem like solid ideas to me.


"impossible to grab the edge because of ledgehop invincible f-air"

If your character has a difficult time doing it or you don't want to risk it, do you really even need to grab the edge if you have a decent ranged low hitting attack? It always seemed to me like Jiggs poofs up above edge height a bit from her DJ unless you interrupt it and grab the edge using sing everytime. I don't have experience against it myself and this could be a dumb question, but have you tried staying out of range of ledgehop invincible f-air anytime immediately following an edge grab, moving in a bit when they drop back from the edge, and then if they dropped low enough maybe look to d-tilt or something them out of the jump?





Kinda like that I guess. Stay out of range, then once you see them drop far enough below/away from the edge go in and maybe attack like those gifs, or sometimes just go in and put up your shield to see if they jump early and do something expecting you to attack their regrab that you can punish and if not then just roll back to safety.



"ledgehop on/off stage f-air camping only"


Ok then.





Jiggs is vulnerable for at least 12 frames before the f-air animation can end and is able to grab the edge. About 9-10 of those frames are while she's still above stage height. If you're using an attack that can hit below the stage a little then you may be able to hit for all 12.








In this example with CF you'd jump right when Jiggs grabs on. You have time to react to them committing to going far on stage with the f-air and then you come down with a b-air, and if you see they didn't then you DJ back to safety.

You mean this?
 

Tomacawk

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because everybody is on their nuts and adds them to their friends list
I shamelessly added PC after meeting him at the Bro Zone
best decision of my life
 

Walt

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So what are guys currently trying to work on?

I've noticed that I don't try to bait stuff enough lately, I just try to find safeish spots to attack, when I could take those same spots and apply positional pressure to bait out something risky and go from there.

Which goes along with my second problem right now of not holding on to stage control, not backing someone into a corner and giving them no room to move.

I'm also just running into DD too much like a tard but that's easy to fix, just don't do it.
 

GooeyBanana

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I know I'm a little late on the response, but the best way to not get gimped as Captain Falcon is to not play Captain Falcon. His job is to get gimped. And still win the match and everyone's hearts in the process.

Btw...I get dair spiked by Marth too much when I recover like right against the wall of where the ledge is...do you need to press R a little earlier than usual? I'm guessing so because I NEVER tech dair. Definitely has to be different timing compared to like getting fsmashed...would you say that teching a dair is like teching a dtilt? Dtilt teching against Marth is mad hard too o_O....
 

Tomacawk

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Dave, it's harder because you almost always have to SDI into the ledge to hit the wall. The dair trajectory sends you down and out. Notice the path you get spiked to...it's like a 25 degree angle or something.
 

Walt

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Yeah f you aren't seeing that green impact flash thing then you couldn't have teched it anyways. I think the main problem with it is it's so long that you rarely are touching the wall so you have to SDI it just to try.
 

Strong Badam

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Dave, it's harder because you almost always have to SDI into the ledge to hit the wall. The dair trajectory sends you down and out. Notice the path you get spiked to...it's like a 25 degree angle or something.
It's 290 degrees, or 20 degrees from the vertical (from straight down).
 

Wenbobular

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Marth's ginormous sword is probably hitting your legs as Falcon stupidly kicks his legs above his head so you're probably not even close enough to try to tech it without some serious SDI
 
D

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I know I'm a little late on the response, but the best way to not get gimped as Captain Falcon is to not play Captain Falcon. His job is to get gimped. And still win the match and everyone's hearts in the process.

Btw...I get dair spiked by Marth too much when I recover like right against the wall of where the ledge is...do you need to press R a little earlier than usual? I'm guessing so because I NEVER tech dair. Definitely has to be different timing compared to like getting fsmashed...would you say that teching a dair is like teching a dtilt? Dtilt teching against Marth is mad hard too o_O....
c-stick DI into the stage whenever you want to tech and you'll find its a lot easier to tech
 

0Room

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So what are guys currently trying to work on?

I've noticed that I don't try to bait stuff enough lately, I just try to find safeish spots to attack, when I could take those same spots and apply positional pressure to bait out something risky and go from there.

Which goes along with my second problem right now of not holding on to stage control, not backing someone into a corner and giving them no room to move.

I'm also just running into DD too much like a tard but that's easy to fix, just don't do it.
Uh I'm just kind of doing things right now.
I'm trying to really work on my more obscure match ups.

A few of my friends have picked up Zelda, I'm trying to play more against Puff, Wenbobular just uploaded a video versus Luigi, etc

The more MUs you know the better you are.
Now I just have to figure out the best way to grab->knee Falco/Fox.
 

superherox

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Sorry StrongBad
I'm kinda new to these forums so...

Do you guys have a training regimen when you practice with falcon?
 
D

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if im severely not warmed up and i need to warm up quick for a match I go to Yoshi's, get 3 level 1 ICies and try to L-cancel while hitting different amounts of people
 

Wenbobular

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Uh I'm just kind of doing things right now.
I'm trying to really work on my more obscure match ups.

A few of my friends have picked up Zelda, I'm trying to play more against Puff, Wenbobular just uploaded a video versus Luigi, etc

The more MUs you know the better you are.
Now I just have to figure out the best way to grab->knee Falco/Fox.
There's not much you really need to know about the Luigi matchup other than punishing uncharged side-b's, DIing everything to his back if he hits you with a ground move, DIing away if he's trying to combo you with aerials, and remembering he's a wavedash character so his mobility is restricted set increments

Vs. Zelda you can just shield camp and Uair out of shield ... but hell if I've ever faced a competent Zelda haha
 

Strong Badam

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what happened to magus?

havent seen him in forever.
He's still around. Usually these days I'm the one chiming in on the frame data/game mechanic questions around SWF and I just ask him on the Project M IRC if there's something I don't know, which regrettably still happens sometimes.
 

ETWIST51294

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There's not much you really need to know about the Luigi matchup other than punishing uncharged side-b's, DIing everything to his back if he hits you with a ground move, DIing away if he's trying to combo you with aerials, and remembering he's a wavedash character so his mobility is restricted set increments

Vs. Zelda you can just shield camp and Uair out of shield ... but hell if I've ever faced a competent Zelda haha
I run away from every Zelda I've ever played. I like to see how long it takes for them to switch to Sheik.
 

Walt

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There's not much you really need to know about the Luigi matchup other than punishing uncharged side-b's, DIing everything to his back if he hits you with a ground move, DIing away if he's trying to combo you with aerials, and remembering he's a wavedash character so his mobility is restricted set increments

Vs. Zelda you can just shield camp and Uair out of shield ... but hell if I've ever faced a competent Zelda haha
I used to play The Kwan a bunch back when he would hang out in the DVC recroom and I still mained Ganon. Zelda's dsmash is some kind of ridiculous. It can edgeguard Falcon/Ganon forever if you come in low and so can her neutral-b for some reason. Ultimately I learned just fair her. With Ganon and Falcon, she can't really do much about it.
 

Strong Badam

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a lot of random characters have moves that can just edgeguard Falcon/Ganon's up-b's forever. DK's dtilt, for example.
 
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