The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Convert to +/-? ;;>_>

Do you think he does? Hmm. This isn't my area of expertise, but I'm down with all of them being 60-40.

The problem I see with my solution is that 65-35 is a relly big gap, and Im not to convinced that pika has such a big advantage. But still, DL is his playground and I dont feel he has the exact same advantage to all the top/middle tiers except falcon.

the other problem i see is that 65 + 36 doesn't add up to 100

You gotta take it MU by MU. Can't just say "well, not all of these should be the same."

Anyways, where's POLYGON DK on this chart? He wins 90-10 vs fox, and 80-20 vs pikachu, but he gets pwned 75-25 by Master Hand.

x After Dawn x said:

the other problem i see is that 65 + 36 doesn't add up to 100

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Lol

Battlecow said:

You gotta take it MU by MU. Can't just say "well, not all of these should be the same."

Anyways, where's POLYGON DK on this chart? He wins 90-10 vs fox, and 80-20 vs pikachu, but he gets pwned 75-25 by Master Hand.

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You want me to fight for my supper ey? Vs fox I can draw the gimpcard again. Not as bad as link, but still. The small stage makes it though for fox. His predictable recovery is one of the easiest for pika to time a killer fsmash or jump out nair, uair w/e.

Kirby is harder to gimp than fox because of better recovery, and he can still play defensive without problems unlike fox who doesnt have much space to run around and lasercamp. (Kirby can aircamp, bait uptilts etc).

Its not a big difference since fox still can do most of his combos on that stage. But since its so small, recovery happens normaly more often than on the other neutrals. So kirby should be a little bit thougher opponent than fox on DL for pika.

And polygon DK pwnes master hand. Where U at?

Fox is easier to gimp than Link IMO ... it's just that there are some times when you don't even need to gimp Link due to the fact that his recovery is so short.

Link has a quick recovery with actual priority. Most of the time Fox doesn't get a chance to do any fakeouts because his recovery starts so darn slowly... you get uaired before you can even move.

If Link gets chucked off at low percents he can often get back with a quick double jump + upB sweetspot, in my experience at least. It's hard to beat Link's upB with an aerial. If Fox is outside of double jump range he's screwed, and even within double jump range all Pika has to do is trade hits, which is a lot easier than hitting Link's upB.

pikachu's offstage edgeguarding is better against fox but his onstage edgeguarding is better against link.

That's why you don't do onstage edgeguarding against Fox unless Fox is really far away.

Also, the only thing that has range against Link's upB is fsmash, which needs some time to set up

You're comparing two situations that aren't equivalent. Link recovering low vs Fox recovering high.

Fox recovering low is much more "F*cked" than Link anyway. And I don't see why Link recovering high is "F*cked" considering he can boomerang and use high priority upB. Fox can only get back in the situation where Pika can't get out to his startup in time and even then he has to rely on juke moves.

Ballin.

Your original post says Fox is easier to gimp, and I can see why you're saying that. It's just that Link's recovery is hella short, and he sometimes doesn't even need to be gimped; again, like you said in your first post on this topic.

However, Link's recovery is still worse, due to his distance issues.

Why are you arguing about this?

i see where ballin makes this arguement that a low link has a better chance than a low fox because of priority but link can only ever recover low and it is at low percents where the only time fox should be recovering low is at high percents so overall fox has a better recovery because he has a chance at a higher percent

fox has a better recovery on the grounds that link's recovery is just plain **** and doesn't reach the ledge

edit: i should probably mention this as overall, not specific to the matchup

Link has a better recovery for one simple reason. Link can actually recover if he is near the stage due to the up b priority. Fox doesn't recover.

I don't care if fox has a longer recovery, he dies anyway as he is easy to gimp and Fox doesn't have a move to quickly grab the edge. Fox's recovery is like a better less predictable version of Ness's. Large range, easy to gimp.

Sangoku said:

FD should be made legal. Has anyone tried it on console by the way?

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going to try it on console today+tomorrow

switching codes on/off while on console is possible, btw

wait, on console...? without a gameshark? how?

x After Dawn x said:

wait, on console...? without a gameshark? how?

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wish there was a way without gameshark for console, maybe in the future with that new flashcart in conjunction with a custom rom, perhaps?


gonna try with my gameshark pro 3.3

sucks because the LED on mine doesnt work AKA i cant import HUGE code lists (Like for FD) from computer ---> Gameshark

i'm going to put them in manually, 2 different characters each for p1 + p2 for testing purposes

i'll reply with my own testing after i'm done

Great initiativ guys, sounds like a cool idea. But please discuss that in another thread.

So do people agree or disagree with my points? Please share thoughts of your opinions.

People always seem to equate "recovery" with "up-B," which skews reality.

So....

Pikachu's Match-ups on Dreamland:
55 Falcon
60 Kirby
60 Fox
60 Mario
65 Yoshi
65 DK
65 Jigglypuff
70 Ness
75 Link
70 Luigi
70 Samus

Something like that? And we're a bit rocky starting, but thanks to you guys for helping out. Keep it up!

@ Battlecow(too lazy to quote)

Fox definitely has advantage over falcon.

Trust boom's word over mine

My opinion remains unchanged, but I acknowledge that it's almost certainly wrong.

ciaza said:

whenever I go for a quick sweet-spot I get a hearty fsmash to my handsome face.

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Soooooooooooooooo gay.

What's a mum?

t3h Icy said:

So....

Pikachu's Match-ups on Dreamland:
55 Falcon
60 Kirby
60 Fox
60 Mario
65 Yoshi
65 DK
65 Jigglypuff
70 Ness
75 Link
70 Luigi
70 Samus

Something like that? And we're a bit rocky starting, but thanks to you guys for helping out. Keep it up!

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Looks good, but I still feel fox has a harder time vs pika on DL than Kirby. For the reasons I listed earlier.

DMoogle said:

People always seem to equate "recovery" with "up-B," which skews reality.

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I really like and agree with this post. Just thought I'd point that out.

Olikus said:

Looks good, but I still feel fox has a harder time vs pika on DL than Kirby. For the reasons I listed earlier.

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Well, I don't think Fox is bad as 35-65, and Kirby not as good as 45-55. Do you think the difference between them is significant?

are there no matchups that are between multiples of 10?

t3h Icy said:

Well, I don't think Fox is bad as 35-65, and Kirby not as good as 45-55. Do you think the difference between them is significant?

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I do feel pikachu has a great advantage over fox on DL, but if everyone agrees on 60-40, then thats the final answer. We have to choose what most people think is right ofc, so its okay for me, even if I feel kirby is better than fox vs pika on DL.

Lets discuss fox on DL!

I'd like to show-off some of the stuff I'm doing this time around. Since I've started University, I've learned a lot of handy stuff for stats, matrices, etc that can help out.

First off, the usual weighing of the numbers is important, but one question is how many times should we repeat the weighing? Here's the base, off of what numbers we use and the weight of them underneath:



You can see that Mario and Falcon get split up from what is normally a tie, as Falcon's better match-ups are Fox and Yoshi, while Mario's are Kirby and Jigglypuff. As Fox and Yoshi are better characters, Falcon becomes a slightly better character than Mario, since he has more important match-ups. You can see other various shifts around.

Now, there's a few math formulas and things that can help you find the ratio between two characters (listed on the far right column). Of course though, most of you aren't math majors, or care, etc, so instead, here's an image of the 160th weighing of the characters:



At this point, the numbers are unfathomably large, but what's important is on the far right, you'll notice a lot of the ratios start becoming 1 (ie, the characters are equal). Technically, these are never exactly 1, but become very close (and become 1 with the number of decimals I rounded by). What this shows is where tiers should be split up on; you'll see that this suggests, Pikachu; Fox, Kirby, Falcon, Mario, Yoshi; DK, Jigglypuff; Ness, Link, Luigi, Samus.

But of course, this is not realistic for humans. This would assume that characters are used, based on what's good, then they switch again as the newly used characters become good, etc, and this loops and loops infinitely (but eventually slows down). This would be useful for supercomputers TASing the game, and assuming our numbers for match-ups are mathematically perfect to endless amounts of decimal places.

But, this can still be useful. While all the ratios of characters eventually approach 1, they don't all get to that as fast as others. So for example, Fox becomes equal to Kirby after the 78th re-weighing, while Luigi and Samus become equal after 88. This can help distinguish tiering for a human level if the numbers are extremely close, like the Link/Luigi debate we had last time. So that is no longer a problem. This can also help with tier differences, such as Pikachu being in his own tier or with Kirby and Fox.

Now, one concern is a butterfly effect-like issue. Let's suppose that Samus and Luigi were both 80-20 vs Pikachu. Who would be the best character then?

Well, here's the base and the first weighing:



As you can see, this suggests that Fox is the best, and even Kirby is better than Pikachu. This is a problem, as Pikachu still dominates everything else, but has a problem with two characters that are otherwise poor. But, after calculating the ratio between characters, this eventually settles down. This is what the 160th re-weighing looks like:



So it fixes itself, and Pikachu becomes the best character again. The question would be to go by either inhuman-like measures, or realistic, and I could argue that the 160th re-weighing is more accurate. Samus and Luigi would still be poor characters and aren't the most viable if the opponent isn't Pikachu. But, the chart and match-ups are all about 1v1s, and most players have pocket characters, and we would see many Samuses and Luigis to balance out Pikachu's domination. With this on a realistic sense, Luigi and Samus would still be poor characters, but they would be placed over Link and Ness, and many Pikachu players would worry about his awful match-ups, thus Fox becoming the best character. This would match the first re-weighing. So, no matter how crazy the base chart would look, it would be best to use the first re-weighing for human purposes. This takes care of the problem of how match-ups would turn out after endless re-weighing.

tl;dr: Magical math fixes problems that we had last time, and covers potential problems that could arise.

Olikus said:

Lets discuss fox on DL!

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Not yet, I'd like to make sure everyone is in agreement with Pikachu's. We'll go to Fox shortly.