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Match-up Discussion 11 - Toon Link

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
3,660
Location
Elgin, Texas
NNID
SkyPirateCoud
3DS FC
1590-4884-8497
Toon Link
Advantage/Disadvantage: +1


A variety of tools and a good recovery
It's known that we win the camping war.
Can we beat him up-close and personal?

We need the following information:


-STAGES-
"Best" starters for Oli:
"Worst" starters for Oli:
"Best" counterpicks for Oli:
"Worst" counterpicks for Oli:

Notable "move beats move" situations:

Opponent's primary tools:
How we can deal with opponent's primary tools:

Anything else:
(This section includes gimmicks, minor notes, and anything else that isn't covered)

Don't restrict conversation to just these points.
These are just guidelines to help discussion.
Discuss!
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
3,660
Location
Elgin, Texas
NNID
SkyPirateCoud
3DS FC
1590-4884-8497
Let's see... Zori did a write-up on this in the Impact Site.
EDIT: I (hopefully) made it a little easier to read:

Toon Link by Zori


Ah, my personal favorite match up. The Toon Link match up is very straightforward. I dare to say that it's the only match up we have where we can go on autopilot and succeed. If you follow a few basic rules, this match up becomes easy.


*Overview*​

I will walk you though the basics of the MU.

As soon as the match starts, get on the ground and start tossing. NEVER approach at 0% because TL can downsmash and gimp us very easily. You're not totally safe until about 25%, so just keep chucking. This is a good thing because Pikmin beat subconsciously TL's projectiles. We don't even need to be accurate; just jump and side-b and the job will get done. If a Pikmin hits a bomb, then it explodes in their face. If a Pikmin hits a boomerang, then it cancels it out and they suffer lag. If they shoot arrows, then SOMETHING is bound to hit it before it even touches you.
You can also just shield. They are pretty predictable.

After the TL realizes that his projectiles won't be as effective against us, he will pull out that mighty sword. This is where the MU gets even. His sword is quick and if he does not have a bomb in hand, he can cut up Pikmin into little sushi rolls. His Bair and Nair cover up almost all of his body, so he can get them off with ease. It also has a good amount of priority, so it gives him a few valid approaches.

Now that that's over with, I'm going to give the pro and cons of EVERY move he has, what it can do, and what we can do about it. Let's see how this goes. :]


Nair

What it can do....

Bottom line is that it's quick. It can get Pikmin off very quickly and can be used safely on our shield. It can also trip us if it hits the top of our head at low percentages. Be wary that the Nair is mainly for poking at out shield, and be prepared for what comes after the Nair. Don't try to challenge it, just shield and react accordingly.


What we can do about it....

If spaced correctly, there is little we can do about this move except shield. You can run past him if you see him setting up a Nair and Usmash him from underneath.





Bair

What it can do....

Another quick move in his arsenal, this would be his ideal way of getting off Pikmin because it hits the latched ones and fights off the oncoming Pikmin. It has almost infinite combo potential at any percent, so be on guard for that. Don't worry about getting hit with 2-3 Bairs at low percentages; it's just TL's was of getting easy damage and it prevents us from getting downsmash gimped. Bair can be used for offense and defense.


What we can do about it....

It's another move safe on our shield. They can only use it twice before they have to land, so watch their movements. We don't have any moves that safely beat it, so let them have their fun and **** them when they land. :]





Dair

What it can do....

Dair is not much of a threat in this MU. They can Bair to Dair if we are at low percentages, but otherwise you can see it coming and grab it with ease.


What we can do about it....

Shield Grab





Uair

What it can do....

This move last a loooooooooooooooooong time. Don't try to airdodge this move. Just whistle it or jump completely out the way. If the Toon Link is fishing for a kill, he will have no problem pulling out this move, especially on a platform.


What we can do about it....

If you're under a platform, then hold your ground and shield. He suffers a lot of lag once this long *** attack is over, so you can get back stage control.





Upsmash

What it can do....

Upsmash is their primary kill move. It has a lot of priority and comes out pretty fast. If they hit our shield, they can spot dodge before we can shield grab so don't challenge this move. It can also be used to juggle and pressure us on the ledge.


What we can do about it....

If they upsmash our shield, don't shield grab. Instead, forward smash to beat out their spotdodge. They might also try using uptilt out of spot dodge. Otherwise, you will be able to see this move coming.





Downsmash

What it can do....

Oh god, what can't this move do? Like I stated before, DO NOT approach him at 0%. This move can **** us up in so many ways. It can even kill at high percentages.


What we can do about it....

Spam, Spam, and more Spam.





Forwardsmash

What it can do....

Forwardsmash is a pretty good mindgame. They can delay the second hit for a while, so holding your shield though the whole move is the best idea.


What we can do about it....

We can shield and grab it afterward. This move is not much of a threat if you play it safe.





Uptilt

What it can do....

If they are behind us, it's a very safe move. They will most likely keep using it as it chips at our shield. It can also be used for many follow-ups.


What we can do about it....

We can try to not let them get that close by using more Fsmash, but if they happen to get close just take the hit and DI away.





Forwardtilt

What it can do....

Ummmm... This is a bad move. You can grab it and it's very slow


What we can do about it....


Laught at it.





Downtilt

What we can do about it....

This is one move I don't see a lot of TLs use. It can gimp us very well if it hits the top of our head when we are off stage.


What we can do about it....

Recover lower.





Dash Attack

What it can do....

Another good underused move, it can also gimp us. It's completely unpredictable.


What we can do about it....

Recover lower.





Up-B

What it can do....

On the ground, it can do a decent amount of damage, but thankfully we can smash DI out of it.
In the air, TL's might try to read our DI and kill us off the top with it. It's very hard to pull off, but don't underestimate it.


What we can do about it........

Smash DI on the ground, airdodge in the air.





Jab

What it can do....

This move is not very safe against Olimar, but that doesn't make it useless. Most TLs will jab and use all three hits. They do this because the last hit has some delay, so we will instinctively try to shield grab and they will get the last hit in.


What we can do about it....

We can shield all the way and try to not let them get that close.





Projectiles

What it can do....

They can do everything. The combinations I have seen with projectiles are endless. They combo into each other and when a TL has a full comprehension of how to mix projectiles with his sword, you never want to get hit. I'm not going to go into great detail on this because it would be near impossible, but an example would be a TL throwing an boomerang behind you and running up and charging an upsmash. Sound dumb, but it's not. Our first reaction is "I'm going to shield and when he releases the smash, I'll grab him". You shield for 3 seconds and your shield is half its size, but then the boomerang he threw earlier hits you in the back of the head while you receive a fully charged upsmash. You have to watch out for things like that. Watch their patterns and you will be okay.


What we can do about it........


Play it smart. Depending on how and when the projectile is used, you need to react accordingly. Shielding is always the best option.
I personally don't get to play Toon Links too often, but I do know a little about it.
- Powershielding goes a long way in this match-up. His projectiles are easy to spot and powershield, I believe his Zair can be powershielded to Usmash (Fsmash outranges it, though).
- Powershield and Pikmin toss for camping.
- Don't go near him if he's on a slanted ledge. Dsmash can insta-gimp us.
- Watch for the second hit of Fsmash. They can delay it or just not use the second hit.

Can we use Usmash OoS on Nair, Bair, Usmash, or Dsmash?
 

MJG

Smash Hero
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
5,712
Location
In Kokomo Circle Camping with Shadow1pj
this characters stupidl lol ololololololololololololololololol

busted y. cheats at this game. alwaus and forever. L

**** this character man. worse thing to vever come to brawllllll


LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.



o

ak
dk


donkey kong

VVVVVVV
He's the leader of the bunch
of fggts
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
3,660
Location
Elgin, Texas
NNID
SkyPirateCoud
3DS FC
1590-4884-8497
We know all about the general thought on our character's "stupidity", thank you. T_T
 

Dotcom

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
1,403
Location
In the jawn, with the jawn.
I'm pretty experienced in this match up so i'm gonna take Zori's information and throw it in with mine to try to make for a "crack up" post.

Opponents Tools

- Good aerial game
- Able to space effectively with Zair & projectiles
- Virtually instant gimp (0~10%)
- Decent Recovery


Our Tools

- We "win" the camping war
- Kill early
- Can zone effectively
- Outrange opponent


So using Zori's information we can get into the opponents "primary" tools.

Aerials

Both are moves that are pretty safe on our shield. They come out with good speed and both manage to get off pikmin fairly easily.
- Bair: has more combo potential then Nair, as Bair's can be strung together and possible lead up to a gimp.
- Nair: mainly used as a move to gimp off stage and is saved for higher percents, but can be also used to build damage up.


MOST IMPORTANTLY: Zair: the "aerial" used most in this match up. Has good distance, supplies pressure, starts combos, and is safe on shield. You will see this thrown out when a TL whiffs something in the air most likely.

- Toon Link has a pretty easy time gimping us off stage and his recovery is pretty darn good(don't try to edge hog nothing good ever comes out of it). It's better to go with the whistle than air dodge because their aerials can be released in quick succession.

Ground Game

- Jab: Not really too big of a problem by itself, but it can be quickly cancelled into a grab. Grab presents more of a problem then jab does but it's best to link these two together because Olimar doesn't really get grabbed too much without the. Jab comes out very fast has decent knock back, and leads into other moves. Grab generally puts us in a bad position as TL is mainly looking to get the gimp in this MU.

- Usmash: Is the main killer and can dip to kill around 90% if fresh. They will throw this out commonly as the move is pretty quick; and they can spot dodge before we get a chance to shield grab for a punish.

- Fsmash: Comes out in two parts, the first part stuns and the second part is the killer. Is a strong move and the first part of the attack can be cancelled.

- Dsmash: F*CK this move in general. The instant gimp, which is caused by the ******** angle it sends you at is a HORRIBLE feeling(in PA we call it the Okie Doke (because of Kingtoon really)) and it makes you mad and makes you want to rush in which you probably get you Dsmashed again. Stay your ground make them hit you with other moves to get you out of that low % range and then start the rest of your offense.

THE SPAM

Just because we "win" the spam war doesn't mean you won't see it. In combination Tink's three projectiles are strong and can shut down your offense if you take the wrong angle. Able to steal the (expletive) out of your second jump, as well as get you off balance and gain stage control.


How we DEAL with their tools

Aerials:
Our yellow pikmin out range all of their aerials sans Zair so you could possibly try to challenge them in the air, though if you miss they are faster than us. It's best to try and pivot grabbing aerials as our pivots outrange all of their aerials. Though with pivot grabbing Zair will go outside of our range. You could also spotdodge and punish the landings if they are close. If you see them trying to setup in the air you could quickly run past them and Usmash.
Note: Our UAir hits through their Dair at any part of the move; that and USmash OoS is AMAZING here.

Ground Game
Tink won't really try to fight with us on the ground as our Ground Game beats theirs. If you get caught in the first hit of Fsmash you can quickly SDI out of the range of the second one where it won't connect with you. It's best to try and punish this move after it has finished because they can delay it and hit you with it. IIRC our Fsmash beats out theirs. USmash is quick so it's best to shield it and move away because sans something like jab they can get out of the way before we get a chance to attack. Dsmash is a(n expletive) so don't try to challenge it. Run away and spam.

THE SPAM
How we win the matchup is exactly how deal with THE SPAM. WE SPAM. Just harder. Tink has to spam you to get an opening in this matchup and using our spam we tend to shut down their openings and make up ones for ourselves. Bombs are annoying, and never forget that the boomerang comes back but recognizing what's around you should always leave you in a favorable situation. Power shielding is good but sometimes limits your options because they can move pretty quickly towards while spamming. Play it safe and just throw pikmin because sooner or later THEY will have to approach YOU.


Overview
Things to remember
- Never approach at low percents and always try to keep your distance in mind.
- When in doubt OverB & Powershield
- Our ground game is better than theirs so use it to your advantage
- Play it safe and keep yourself on stage
- Try to distance yourself and use moves that will leave our zone safe yet manage to get inside theirs.

Editors notes:
F*CK DSMASH.
Always have the lead in this match because it's terrible trying to gain it back.

Worst neutral: Yoshi's. They like this stage, move well on it, make's it easier for them to stay close while spamming and that Dsmash (expletive) is much more prevalent here.

Worst Counterpick: Delfino or Rainbow. I can't stand Delfino it's just bad against them overall but they get to take advantage of us on Rainbow because of their aerial mobility coupled with the fact they can easily steal our jumps with arrows.

Best Neutral: Smashville. Room to move freely, we can control the stage well and the moving platform helps us out more if the Tink air camps a lot.

Best Counterpick: It's really personal preference here but I like Frigate. purples help and we get alot here, plus the platform in the middle on the second part of the stage really helps us out imo.







 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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Perhaps I should explain.
I'm fine with people complaining about the character, but I'm not fine with that sort of spam.

Two questions, dotcom:
Wouldn't the campy nature of RC mostly benefit us?
And about the arrows, isn't that only really a problem on the pendulum transitions?
Not saying these two are true, just asking. I haven't gotten to fight a TL MAIN on RC yet, only a guy that seconds him.
 

MJG

Smash Hero
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
5,712
Location
In Kokomo Circle Camping with Shadow1pj
I was really out of my mind last night and I already knew what was coming for me :awesome:. I don't hate this character at all. I've played with/against this character more frequently than I would like to though.

I will probably input on this when I am not about to pass out.


afk
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
3,660
Location
Elgin, Texas
NNID
SkyPirateCoud
3DS FC
1590-4884-8497
Ah. Your region has Fino and Cook, no?
When I went up there, you told me that I should pretty much just run away and throw stuff the entire time.

I imagine Cook's good at that. :3
 

MJG

Smash Hero
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
5,712
Location
In Kokomo Circle Camping with Shadow1pj
Yes but Fino was my crewmate for awhile before I moved away for college. I am currently 5 minutes away from him now since it is summer time.


Things to keep in mind:
-Nair: Space this move really well. If it is spaced well, olimar cannot punish you (even if you SH or FH nair).
-Bair: Using bair on olimar usually isn’t the best idea. He can tag you OoS with JC Up Smash and even a regular Up Smash.
-Zair: Don’t try to follow up with this move too much. Use it to give yourself some space.
-Grab: Yes, TL’s useless grab is useful in this MU. A lot of olimars like to just sit in their shield. Grab them, put them in the air and go from there.
-Bombs: As useless as bombs may seem, they will help protect you from olimar when landing; as long as you aren’t predictable.

Kill Moves:
Fair, Uair, Bair (not as stale in this MU), Up smash (this should only be used if you can force an air dodge from an olimar or if you can get a good read).

Once TL is up a stock vs olimar, full hop nairs, spaced zairs and camping from above is probably the best idea. Olimar now has to approach at this point and 9 times out of 10, TL will die from a fresh throw/Smash attack anyways.

Stages: Smashville, Battlefield, Frigate, Delfino and Rainbow Cruise.
Ban: Halberd and Yoshi’s Island.

Fun Note: You can down smash purple pikmin off stage since down smash does 11% and purple pikmin have 15 HP (lol).
This is something I wrote not too long ago. Nothing much has changed. I realized that TL needs to be in Olimar's face for a majority of the match. More damage should be coming from Olimar's grabs, aerials or smash attacks rather than from pikmin latching. For us TL mains, playing too safe and not applying enough pressure doesn't help us at all.


That is pretty much it.
 

hedgehog9597

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
13
If you suddenly find yourself on the ground below a tl diving down with dair, spam usmash. He just kinda hovers until the move ends, and if you're still spamming, he gets whacked with a usmash. FYI, the first 3 or so don't hurt him, they just stall his move.
 
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