"common knowledge" that a lot of people don't know

Fortress | Sveet · Jun 3, 2011

thats not true. It works against all of their jabs. You can pop up from sheik's jab as long as you are at ~10%. Fox/falco's is around that percent too, and puff's is like 25%

-ACE- · Jun 3, 2011

Sveet, are you sure you can't SDI out of a jab reset at any %? I thought you could but I don't know the specifics.

Strong Badam · Jun 3, 2011

Captain Falcon gets ***** harder because he has higher weight (104, equal as Link) and therefore resists it more. But against Sheik's jab, he can SDI up at 0%.
So can anyone else, at any rate.

crush said:
SDI ing up doesnt work against most characters jabs

Such as? Sheik's is set knockback with 4 damage, 0 base. A lot of jabs increase in KB with %, so you'd be hard-pressed to find one that can't be SDI'd up.

Fortress | Sveet · Jun 3, 2011

I thought there was a small percent window where even if you SDI'd (1 input) you would not leave the ground. And i remember a magus post talking about how puff's jab took significantly longer to be able to hold left/right and roll from it

gm jack · Jun 4, 2011

That might be due to a different in SDI and ASDI.

KAOSTAR · Jun 4, 2011

sdi inputs and asdi have set movement.

.6 and .3 puff's width. so I wouldn't understand why u wouldn't get off the ground.

so idk really, but im under the impression u can sdi up any jab.

Fortress | Sveet · Jun 4, 2011

wasnt there an example of that in the zenith crews, jman vs hbox? jman clearly SDI'd the jab but didn't get off the ground so he died.

Magus420 · Jun 4, 2011

ASDI is 3 units (the unit of size/distance used in the game's coding), and SDI is 6 units. To avoid being reset you need to be off the ground 13 frames after being hit off the floor (when the downdamage animation ends), and you'll go into a normal fall that you can do whatever out of or simply land on your feet. If you're on the ground but still in hitstun after the 13 you can roll/getup attack on the forced getup. If you're no longer in hitstun and on the ground after 13 you're forced to stand up only.

Ignoring the slight differences from the animation causing you to land from a tiny bit higher up (making the min vertical KB to escape slightly less) it'd be something like this for escaping upwards:

Character|Gravity|Fall Distance (13fr)|ASDI Min Vert KB (13fr)|ASDI+SDI Min Vert KB (13fr)
Fox|0.230|20.740|17.740|11.740
Falco|0.170|15.470|12.470|6.470
Bowser|0.130|11.830|8.830|2.830
Ganondorf|0.130|11.830|8.830|2.830
Captain Falcon|0.130|11.830|8.830|2.830
Sheik|0.120|10.920|7.920|1.920
Roy|0.114|10.374|7.374|1.374
Link|0.110|10.010|7.010|1.010
Young Link|0.110|10.010|7.010|1.010
Pikachu|0.110|10.010|7.010|1.010
Pichu|0.110|10.010|7.010|1.010
Donkey Kong|0.100|9.100|6.100|0.100
Ice Climbers|0.100|9.100|6.100|0.100

Weight affects the KB growth, so a heavier character will need to be at higher damage than a lighter character of the same gravity.

Fox accelerates so quickly that he can begin to roll/attack (13+ frames of hitstun) out of most things before he can escape upwards unless you manage to SDI upwards twice. CF certainly doesn't get ***** harder than those two. The weight difference reducing the KB on him means little compared to his lower gravity.

Magus420 said:
You can start to roll/attack as well as just stand off Jiggs' jab after like 85/95ish depending on the character's weight. CF can SDI up to land on his feet starting at like 15-20ish to avoid the forced getup, Falco can SDI up at like 80ish, and Fox doesn't escape with a SDI up until after the point he is able to just roll/attack out of it anyway.

Sucks for Fox/Falco I guess, lol.

If you're desperate I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try SDIing upwards twice by smashing straight up then immediately rotating to a side though.

Palpi · Jun 4, 2011

Magus lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Magus420 · Jun 4, 2011

In teams with more than one of the same character the lower port number is always normal brightness and the higher port is light (if there's 3 of the same on a team the highest port gets a dark version). Say red team is double Fox in ports 2 and 3. Player 2 is the normal red Fox, and player 3 is light red Fox. Good for keeping track of who's at which damage.

KAOSTAR · Jun 4, 2011

magus knows all. I love reading his posts.

I don't quite understand what the fall distance is. I see that the other numbers are just offset by 3 and 9 but is the fall distance the knock back needed initially to put them into a fall state aka not be "reset"

and knock back is based on...? damage and weight?

Magus420 · Jun 4, 2011

Fall distance is the distance they move downwards over 13 frames due to fall speed. Since they start at 0 when hit it's the sum of 1*Grav + 2*Grav + 3*Grav... + 13*Grav, or simply 7*Grav*13. Only exception being Fox who manages to hit top speed on the 13th frame (his is 2.8) and gets 2.8 on the 13th instead of 13*Grav (2.99).

The part of KB that grows with more percent is affected by weight (knockback growth, KBG). Attacks with set KB like Fox's shine or Peach's jab 1 are also affected by weight (weight dependent set knockback, WDSK).

The base amount of KB an attack with growth does regardless of damage (base knockback, BKB) is the only part that is not affected by weight. If you look at Falco's shine vs Fox's u-tilt it demonstrates KBG/BKB. Falco's shine has huge BKB (110) and sends Bowser pretty far at 0, while Fox's u-tilt with 18 BKB doesn't do much. U-tilt has a lot more KBG though which more than makes up for the difference in BKB at high damages.

-ACE- · Jun 4, 2011

Magus.... you're the man. All the info you dump on these boards is much appreciated.

Metal Reeper · Jun 5, 2011

What if Magus was secretly the greatest troll ever and all the stuff he was saying he just pulled out of his ***? LMAO I'd die.

Fortress | Sveet · Jun 5, 2011

He once said you couldn't hold up and meteor cancel, but you definitely can.

Magus420 · Jun 5, 2011

Or someone said I said that. I don't remember ever posting that.

Strong Badam · Jun 5, 2011

Metal Reeper said:
What if Magus was secretly the greatest troll ever and all the stuff he was saying he just pulled out of his ***? LMAO I'd die.

His information about Gravity is truth. It's an attribute in the character files

Fortress | Sveet · Jun 5, 2011

Magus420 said:
Or someone said I said that. I don't remember ever posting that.

I suppose thats possible, though im usually pretty good at remembering these things. I don't listen to 2ndary sources much.

Metal Reeper · Jun 5, 2011

What are the specifics of meteor canceling? Do you just have to hit UpB really fast after the move hits? Is it % based?

LAW2222 · Jun 5, 2011

if you cape falcos get up attack from the ledge from behind, he will teleport across the stage

Strong Badam · Jun 5, 2011

Metal Reeper said:
What are the specifics of meteor canceling? Do you just have to hit UpB really fast after the move hits? Is it % based?

8 frames or later after hitlag.

Metal Reeper · Jun 6, 2011

Alright, Cause I feel like I've been trying to do it REALLY fast after I get hit and it Hasn't been working. I guess that's why.

-ACE- · Jun 6, 2011

That's why so many ppl miss it on ganon's dair, crazy hitlag.

KAOSTAR · Jun 6, 2011

Strong Bad said:
8 frames or later after hitlag.

can u mash? I have also heard that same thing that sveet said about holding up or hitting jump...like during the hit lag or something.

so can I just mash jump or up b to meteor?

Delaro · Jun 6, 2011

ArcNatural said:
Jigglypuff isn't a top tier character

So good.

XD I agree with you, this little sonuva ***** shouln't be there -.-

Strong Badam · Jun 6, 2011

no. after you hit Up-B, a timer of 40 frames decrements and you can't meteor cancel until afterward. if you do this before the 8 frames before you can meteor cancel, you're kinda ****ed.
only Kirby/Puff after using a jump can just hiold up.
don't mash.

also fresh Ganon dair has 12 frames of hitlag. omfg

KAOSTAR · Jun 6, 2011

wait so u mean...up b aka your recovery...40 frame window starts....get stomped...12 hit lag, 8 wait...so 20 frames after the up b u can meteor cancel assuming u get hit right as u up b?

or any time u press up b regardless of action there is a 40 frame window b4 u can cancel...preventing mashing....and still can't be done until 8 frames after hit lag?

does jump not matter aka u can jump out whenever if u still have your jump?

Magus420 · Jun 6, 2011

Ganon's d-air has 10 hitlag for him and 15 for the person being hit. Dunno where you got 12 from.

Meteors:

1) Cancelable with mid-air jump(s) or up-b as early as frames 8+ of meteor knockback. Meteor cancelable attacks have default trajectories within 260°-280°. Mario's f-air is 280° and is MCable, while the hitbox on Roy's u-smash that spikes is 259°. Most meteors are 270° (straight down). Marth, Falco, Ganon, and CF's spikes are 290° (down and slightly outwards).

2) Using up-b at almost any time begins a no MC timer/window, where you can't MC with a jump or up-b at all for the next 40 frames. For example, if you're recovering and get meteored out of the startup of your up-b you won't be able to MC it until that timer has cleared.

3) Inputting a jump on frames 1-7 of meteor knockback prevents you from MCing with a jump for the next 40 frames (jumping at other times does not trigger it unlike the one caused by using up-b). If still available, you can MC with an up-b like normal during this period however. Using up-b on frames 1-7 counts as a jump and also triggers the no MC window using a double jump if the up input for the up-b is far enough to have caused a mid-air 'tap jump' with the control stick. If the stick isn't pressed far enough to do that when doing the up-b then a jump can still be used to MC, since only the no MC with up-b window is triggered.

4) Inputting an up-b during hitlag doesn't trigger the no MC window.

5) Extra freeze frames added from hitlag don't count towards the 40 frame no MC windows.

6) Auto-jumps on multi-jumps by holding a jump button (holding a jump input with Kirby/Jiggs after at least 1 mid-air jump has been used) does not use up your mid-air jump MC opportunity as long as it's pressed/held before frames 1-7, and since the auto-jump property of them will try to jump at the first possible opening to do one it MCs on frame 8. Holding jump when able to auto-jump, and then pressing up-b during frames 1-7 only prevents MCing with up-b for 40 frames, and doesn't prevent them from MCing with a jump. However, when not able to auto-jump (Kirby/Jiggs with all 5 jumps, or every other character), having a jump input held down when using up-b during 1-7 does trigger the no MC with jump window as well. (this whole part with auto-jumping is dumb and those 2 characters can basically auto-MC by just holding up the whole time as long as they've jumped at least once and they start holding it before hitlag ends)

Beat! · Jun 6, 2011

So you can mash up-B, because it's not affected by the MC timer? Is that correct?

Strong Badam · Jun 6, 2011

Magus420 said:
Ganon's d-air has 10 hitlag for him and 15 for the person being hit. Dunno where you got 12 from.

added 3 before dividing by 3.

Metà · Jun 6, 2011

Magus420 said:
Ganon's d-air has 10 hitlag for him and 15 for the person being hit. Dunno where you got 12 from.

oh ****, i didn't know that. I guess that's cause it's an electric attack right?

so, that means that it would be possible, if one were frame perfect, to hit them with a d-air on the last frame before hitting the ground, then edge-cancel, and jab them before hitstun is over (jab is 3 frames if i'm not mistaken, so 1 frame to land + 1 to edge-cancel and then it comes out on the last frame)

KAOSTAR · Jun 7, 2011

***** have u not seen the epic ledge cancel dair to up tilt on falco? but hitting with another move before hit stun ends is called a combo lmao.

unless u meant b4 hit lag ends...ive heard in that case the momentum will stack...hit with two moves within ten frames or something like that.

magus: do u have to actually up b to start the 40 frame window or just press it? so far ive concluded that just pressing it is what counts. if I up b on frame 7 of hit stun...then I have to wait 40 frames...but hitting up b during that 40 frames, does that reset the timer or can I keep mashing and will meteor around 40 frames later?

Hax · Jun 7, 2011

something i thought everybody knew but turned out to be quite the opposite:

if you hit with the top part of c.falcon's down air, it is a[n extremely powerful] spike, NOT a meteor

btw falcon/marth is 70-30 falcon but thats off topic

ETWIST51294 · Jun 7, 2011

Every falcon knows that but people outside of us don't seem to.

Fortress | Sveet · Jun 7, 2011

The nipple spike is really cool. I realized that it is because meteors only occur on moves with exactly straight down knockbacks (its not its own property, its a property of moves that send at this trajectory). Nipple spikes sends about 20 degrees off of straight down so it can't be meteor canceled.

also, 4:20

KAOSTAR · Jun 7, 2011

Sveet said:
The nipple spike is really cool. I realized that it is because meteors only occur on moves with exactly straight down knockbacks (its not its own property, its a property of moves that send at this trajectory). Nipple spikes sends about 20 degrees off of straight down so it can't be meteor canceled.

also, 4:20

My dude, meteors smashes range from 260-280 degrees...with 270 being straight down. Magus just posted about how roy's upair was 259 and falcons (ganon/marth) nipple spike was 290...talking about meteor canceling rules.

post #1388
Meteors:

1) Cancelable with mid-air jump(s) or up-b as early as frames 8+ of meteor knockback. Meteor cancelable attacks have default trajectories within 260°-280°. Mario's f-air is 280° and is MCable, while the hitbox on Roy's u-smash that spikes is 259°. Most meteors are 270° (straight down). Marth, Falco, Ganon, and CF's spikes are 290° (down and slightly outwards).

2) Using up-b at almost any time begins a no MC timer/window, where you can't MC with a jump or up-b at all for the next 40 frames. For example, if you're recovering and get meteored out of the startup of your up-b you won't be able to MC it until that timer has cleared.

3) Inputting a jump on frames 1-7 of meteor knockback prevents you from MCing with a jump for the next 40 frames (jumping at other times does not trigger it unlike the one caused by using up-b). If still available, you can MC with an up-b like normal during this period however. Using up-b on frames 1-7 counts as a jump and also triggers the no MC window using a double jump if the up input for the up-b is far enough to have caused a mid-air 'tap jump' with the control stick. If the stick isn't pressed far enough to do that when doing the up-b then a jump can still be used to MC, since only the no MC with up-b window is triggered.

4) Inputting an up-b during hitlag doesn't trigger the no MC window.

5) Extra freeze frames added from hitlag don't count towards the 40 frame no MC windows.

6) Auto-jumps on multi-jumps by holding a jump button (holding a jump input with Kirby/Jiggs after at least 1 mid-air jump has been used) does not use up your mid-air jump MC opportunity as long as it's pressed/held before frames 1-7, and since the auto-jump property of them will try to jump at the first possible opening to do one it MCs on frame 8. Holding jump when able to auto-jump, and then pressing up-b during frames 1-7 only prevents MCing with up-b for 40 frames, and doesn't prevent them from MCing with a jump. However, when not able to auto-jump (Kirby/Jiggs with all 5 jumps, or every other character), having a jump input held down when using up-b during 1-7 does trigger the no MC with jump window as well. (this whole part with auto-jumping is dumb and those 2 characters can basically auto-MC by just holding up the whole time as long as they've jumped at least once and they start holding it before hitlag ends)

Dark Hart · Jun 7, 2011

Nipple spike 290...

Avert said 20 off 270...

So where was he wrong?

KAOSTAR · Jun 7, 2011

I realized that it is because meteors only occur on moves with exactly straight down knockbacks

Not a big deal, just bringing it to his attention about it being 260-280 not 270 only. Sveet likes the technical mumbo jumbo so Im pretty sure he'd want to make sure he had it right.

edit: Avert? is that Sveet's name?

Strong Badam · Jun 7, 2011

G&W's pummel does weird **** when he's on a slope. Try it on Kongo Jungle 64

KAOSTAR · Jun 8, 2011

happens with more than gw, but I don't know how to recreate the effect....specifically fox.

"common knowledge" that a lot of people don't know

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀

Gotem City Vigilante

Super Elite

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀

Smash Lord

the Ascended One

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

the Ascended One

Smash Master

Gotem City Vigilante

Smash Champion

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀

Smash Master

Super Elite

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀

Smash Champion

Smash Journeyman

Super Elite

Smash Champion

Gotem City Vigilante

the Ascended One

Smash Cadet

Super Elite

the Ascended One

Smash Master

Smash Master

Super Elite

Smash Master

the Ascended One

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀

the Ascended One

Rejected by Azua

the Ascended One

Super Elite

the Ascended One

Information

Network