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Theory regarding Sakurai's intended roster

RyanCE

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
39
"The first interesting tidbit he dropped during his talk was that the final character roster was essentially completed when the design document was finalized on July 7, 2005. That was, the character list was done 2½ years before the game was completed. Sakurai said the reasoning behind this was that he knew making additions later during development would be very difficult.

To prevent this master plan from becoming a problem in the long run, Sakurai's design was constructed with the goal of trying to include as much of it as possible within the allotted time. In that way, late cuts could be made without sacrificing the production schedule. The only exception to this plan was the late addition of Sonic."

https://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/15390

From this, we gather that the final roster was decided on July 7, 2005, with the exception of Sonic, who was added in 2007. Also, a number of characters from the originally-planned roster had to be cut. Most likely…

\RSBJ01\effect\fighter\ef_dixie.pac
\RSBJ01\effect\fighter\ef_dr_mario.pac
\RSBJ01\effect\fighter\ef_mewtwo.pac
\RSBJ01\effect\fighter\ef_pra_mai.pac
\RSBJ01\effect\fighter\ef_roy.pac
\RSBJ01\effect\fighter\ef_toon_sheik.pac
\RSBJ01\effect\fighter\ef_toon_zelda.pac

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=137696

The list of cut characters is supported by the following passage from Famitsu, where Sakurai confirms that Diddy Kong was originally meant to be paired with Dixie Kong:

"In the latest Famitsu […] Sakurai is interviewed specifically about the newcomers […] and mentioned that originally Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong were meant to be a pair character that tagged between each other, but the plan was changed due to difficulties encountered."

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=144627

Regarding "pra_mai," there has been speculation that it might stand for "all characters," but this is entirely implausible. In the history of the Japanese language, nobody has ever used "pra mai" to refer to anything of the sort. Seriously. Regardless, the shorthand form of player would be "purei," or "prei." Not "pra." There's absolutely NOTHING credible about the idea of "pra_mai" translating to "all characters." It just doesn't make sense to anybody who speaks Japanese. Young Link and Pichu are the only missing Melee characters from the list, but Toon Link serves as a successor to Young Link. Plusle & Minun (pra_mai) would make a ton of sense as Pichu's replacement.

With all of that said, here is what I now believe the character selection screen was meant to look like had Sakurai's original plans come to fruition:

http://i54.tinypic.com/330r9kj.png

The first half of the columns constitute Nintendo's "Big Three" (Mario, Pokémon, and Zelda), and the second half contains the remaining characters.
 

majora_787

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
6,122
Location
Texas
Good read indeed. It's a shame that they actually have that sort of time issue and can't put in as many ideas as they'd like-- You never know, some of them could have been very interesting additions.

I'll give them credit though, working toward a roster of 39 SLOTS and 44 CHARACTERS, something that would have gone to 40-45 when Sonic was added... That's what the reasonable people are hoping for in SSBU. xD
 

Djent

Smash Champion
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Apr 6, 2010
Messages
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Under The Three Spheres
Hmm, good read indeed. Definitely fits with Sakurai's trend of being ambitious roster-wise, almost to the point of being unrealistic.
 

RyanCE

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
39
At the very least, Sakurai managed to squeeze Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf in towards the end of development; probably around the same time he added Sonic. I really don't mind the exclusion of Dr. Mario or Roy, but it would've been nice to play with Dixie Kong, Mewtwo, Plusle & Minun, and Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik. Given that the characters he wanted to include in the original Smash Bros. made it into Melee, and how the characters he couldn't get into Melee were included in Brawl, it's possible that a few of the cut characters might find their way into SSB4.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
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Tampa FL
Regarding "pra_mai," there has been speculation that it might stand for "all characters," but this is entirely implausible. In the history of the Japanese language, nobody has ever used "pra mai" to refer to anything of the sort. Seriously. Regardless, the shorthand form of player would be "purei," or "prei." Not "pra." There's absolutely NOTHING credible about the idea of "pra_mai" translating to "all characters." It just doesn't make sense to anybody who speaks Japanese. Young Link and Pichu are the only missing Melee characters from the list, but Toon Link serves as a successor to Young Link. Plusle & Minun (pra_mai) would make a ton of sense as Pichu's replacement.
Pra_mai is likely not Plusle or Minun. First, characters are separate and spelled out fully. Popo and Nana have their own file and ZSS has her named spelled out fully. Second, there is no other file on the disc that would be the random box.
 

Impmacaque

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 1, 2003
Messages
349
Location
Bronx, New York
Awesome read. It's a shame Toon Zelda/Sheik didn't make it into Brawl - they would've been awesome. Same with Mewtwo - Lucario really failed to capture the "feel" of Melee Mewtwo, and (imo) turned out to be a boring disappointment of a character.
 

RyanCE

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
39
Pra_mai is likely not Plusle or Minun. First, characters are separate and spelled out fully. Popo and Nana have their own file and ZSS has her named spelled out fully. Second, there is no other file on the disc that would be the random box.
...Because the random box isn't a character. It's just coding. Nothing about "pra_mai" has any association whatsoever with "random." None. It's as sound an argument as claiming that "mewtwo" stands for random. The Ice Climbers can desync and animate independently of one another -- when Nana dies, Popo carries on fighting. Plusle & Minun could have used the exact same animations at the exact same time with no chance of desyncing, essentially making them a single character. Nana's folder is nearly empty, anyway. The ZSS thing means nothing because there's no real consistency in naming; Toon Link is "toonlink" whereas Toon Zelda is "toon_zelda" with an underscore. Characters like Diddy and Dixie don't use their full names, either.

"Omakase" is used to refer to "random" in the Smash Bros. games.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2008/01/ssbbwolfroster.jpg

That's what it says on the random box there.

I suppose the most pertinent question is why would the "random" select option be an empty folder within the character effects portion of the disc?
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
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...Because the random box isn't a character. It's just coding. Nothing about "pra_mai" has any association whatsoever with "random." None. It's as sound an argument as claiming that "mewtwo" stands for random. The Ice Climbers can desync and animate independently of one another -- when Nana dies, Popo carries on fighting. Plusle & Minun could have used the exact same animations at the exact same time with no chance of desyncing, essentially making them a single character. Nana's folder is nearly empty, anyway. The ZSS thing means nothing because there's no real consistency in naming; Toon Link is "toonlink" whereas Toon Zelda is "toon_zelda" with an underscore. Characters like Diddy and Dixie don't use their full names, either.

"Omakase" is used to refer to "random" in the Smash Bros. games.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2008/01/ssbbwolfroster.jpg

That's what it says on the random box there.

I suppose the most pertinent question is why would the "random" select option be an empty folder within the character effects portion of the disc?
There has to be a file for the ranbox box. It has data in it as it generates a picture on the character select and an image on the select screen
Also, Took Zelda with an underscore isn't much different than Toon Link withot one. The fact remains that their names are still written out. Even with Diddy, there is no abbreviations. Pra_mai is an abbreviation of two names. It's likely not Plusel or Minun. It could be another character, but not them. They would also not have the same file.

Also, as far as I know, the boxes have data in them. Mewtwo has stuff in his. Just most of them are very small.
 

RyanCE

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
39
A file for the random box? Somewhere, sure. Not a folder in "character effects." Why isn't there a "pra_mai" for random stage select? "Pra & Mai" is as much an abbreviation for Plusle & Minun as "Diddy" is for Diddy Kong. That's what the Japanese call Plusle & Minun, just like they call Smash Bros. "Sma Bra" or Pocket Monsters "Poke Mon."

Reasons that "pra_mai" probably represents Plusle & Minun:
- Their Japanese names are "Prasle" and "Mainun"
- "Pra & Mai" is the nickname Japanese fans use for Plusle & Minun
- Diamond/Pearl weren't released yet when Sakurai finished his project plan document (Lucario's movie came out a week later), so it makes sense that he would want to represent Generation III
- Plusle & Minun are always together -- they even share a Brawl trophy
- Young Link and Pichu are the only Melee characters missing from the files; Toon Link replaces Young Link and Plusle & Minun replaces Pichu

Reasons that "pra_mai" represents "random":
- None

I'm not trying to argue, it's just that there isn't any reason whatsoever to believe that "pra_mai" means any variation of "random." People have been blindly pushing that for years and I've never seen a single shred of evidence.
 

majora_787

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
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Location
Texas
A file for the random box? Somewhere, sure. Not a folder in "character effects." Why isn't there a "pra_mai" for random stage select? "Pra & Mai" is as much an abbreviation for Plusle & Minun as "Diddy" is for Diddy Kong. That's what the Japanese call Plusle & Minun, just like they call Smash Bros. "Sma Bra" or Pocket Monsters "Poke Mon."

Reasons that "pra_mai" probably represents Plusle & Minun:
- Their Japanese names are "Prasle" and "Mainun"
- "Pra & Mai" is the nickname Japanese fans use for Plusle & Minun
- Diamond/Pearl weren't released yet when Sakurai finished his project plan document (Lucario's movie came out a week later), so it makes sense that he would want to represent Generation III
- Plusle & Minun are always together -- they even share a Brawl trophy
- Young Link and Pichu are the only Melee characters missing from the files; Toon Link replaces Young Link and Plusle & Minun replaces Pichu

Reasons that "pra_mai" represents "random":
- None

I'm not trying to argue, it's just that there isn't any reason whatsoever to believe that "pra_mai" means any variation of "random." People have been blindly pushing that for years and I've never seen a single shred of evidence.
I honestly wouldn't complain if we saw all seven of them in SSB4. Especially Plusle/Minun, Roy, Mewtwo, and Doctor Mario.
 

SmashChu

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A file for the random box? Somewhere, sure. Not a folder in "character effects." Why isn't there a "pra_mai" for random stage select? "Pra & Mai" is as much an abbreviation for Plusle & Minun as "Diddy" is for Diddy Kong. That's what the Japanese call Plusle & Minun, just like they call Smash Bros. "Sma Bra" or Pocket Monsters "Poke Mon."

Reasons that "pra_mai" probably represents Plusle & Minun:
- Their Japanese names are "Prasle" and "Mainun"
- "Pra & Mai" is the nickname Japanese fans use for Plusle & Minun
- Diamond/Pearl weren't released yet when Sakurai finished his project plan document (Lucario's movie came out a week later), so it makes sense that he would want to represent Generation III
- Plusle & Minun are always together -- they even share a Brawl trophy
- Young Link and Pichu are the only Melee characters missing from the files; Toon Link replaces Young Link and Plusle & Minun replaces Pichu

Reasons that "pra_mai" represents "random":
- None

I'm not trying to argue, it's just that there isn't any reason whatsoever to believe that "pra_mai" means any variation of "random." People have been blindly pushing that for years and I've never seen a single shred of evidence.
The evidence is that it is "every player" From what I've found, Mai is "every," and Pra might be something like person, player act. Not sure. I'll have top do more research. Note that there is still no other file on the disc for the random box and it would make sense to be in the character file.

The reason why it isn't is because of how IT works. I'm no programmer, but I can tell you two things. 1)They would not make a file only to change it dramatically later and 2) they would make sure that the file is always understood.

First, if they were very dedicated, they would have written out how all the files would work before developing. While this may be much, they could also make a more basic plan. Anything in technology succeeds with good planning. There was likely a strong plan. That, and programming is a ***** and a half. It would be too much to change a file later. You say, "But no, what if they were on file." That wouldn't happen because they would have to be, literally, one character. That doesn't seem like it would work very well. Also, Nana has her own, unique files, although small. The characters would more than likely be split up.

The second is that it's hard to tell what this file has. We are a bunch of Nintendo nerds and we never really understood what it means. In fact, we are arguing about it right now. Someone with little knowledge of Pokemon wouldn't know what the file was. The big thing is that it's very much cryptic. This also contrast every other character whose names are fully written out and easy to understand (even Zerosuitsamus). Pra_mai is a very obscure name for plusle an Minun. "But what about Diddy and Dixie." True, their names aren't fully spelled out, but you can still tell who they are. Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong. It's the same thing as saying Adam is an abbreviation of Adam Smith. You can still tell who this is.

And the fact remains, where is the random box? There is no other file for it on the entire disc. If you can find it, maybe I would believe you. Otherwise, it makes sense to think the file that we know exist is the one we can't put a name too. That, and we can at least confirm that "mai" is "every."
 

majora_787

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Location
Texas
To be fair, to a japanese person who speaks japanese and knows what's involved, "Pra_Mai" could be exactly the same as "Diddy_Dixie" would be for us.

BUT. We aren't japanese people who speak japanese and we don't know what was involved. I was just throwing that out there.
 

Player-1

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Rainbow Cruise
From what I can tell. there is no random stage choice either in that data which means it would make sense that there wouldn't be a random character choice in the data
 

RyanCE

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
39
The evidence is that it is "every player" From what I've found, Mai is "every," and Pra might be something like person, player act. Not sure. I'll have top do more research. Note that there is still no other file on the disc for the random box and it would make sense to be in the character file.

The reason why it isn't is because of how IT works. I'm no programmer, but I can tell you two things. 1)They would not make a file only to change it dramatically later and 2) they would make sure that the file is always understood.

First, if they were very dedicated, they would have written out how all the files would work before developing. While this may be much, they could also make a more basic plan. Anything in technology succeeds with good planning. There was likely a strong plan. That, and programming is a ***** and a half. It would be too much to change a file later. You say, "But no, what if they were on file." That wouldn't happen because they would have to be, literally, one character. That doesn't seem like it would work very well. Also, Nana has her own, unique files, although small. The characters would more than likely be split up.

The second is that it's hard to tell what this file has. We are a bunch of Nintendo nerds and we never really understood what it means. In fact, we are arguing about it right now. Someone with little knowledge of Pokemon wouldn't know what the file was. The big thing is that it's very much cryptic. This also contrast every other character whose names are fully written out and easy to understand (even Zerosuitsamus). Pra_mai is a very obscure name for plusle an Minun. "But what about Diddy and Dixie." True, their names aren't fully spelled out, but you can still tell who they are. Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong. It's the same thing as saying Adam is an abbreviation of Adam Smith. You can still tell who this is.

And the fact remains, where is the random box? There is no other file for it on the entire disc. If you can find it, maybe I would believe you. Otherwise, it makes sense to think the file that we know exist is the one we can't put a name too. That, and we can at least confirm that "mai" is "every."
Why are you ignoring most of what I've said?

"Pra_mai is a very obscure name for plusle an Minun."

No, it's not. That's their nickname in Japanese. A simple Google.co.jp search of "プラ&マイ" turns up a ton of results. I've been studying the language for years, and I know people who have been speaking it for much longer than I have, and I can tell you with 100% confidence that "pra_mai" doesn't mean any variation of "random," "all characters," or "all players." I don't quite get why you're so blindly clinging to an already loose theory. There's no connection at all. None. In fact, I'll PayPal you $100 if you can find one.

EDIT: Re-reading my post, I didn't mean to come off so defensively, but it annoys me that people still believe that "random" nonsense.
 
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