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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

Walt

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Concord, CA
In the like one and one half friendlies I played with johnny the thought went through my head "man he is so bad at edgegaurding I wonder if I can just up-b anywhere and make it back?" then I just up-b'd onto the stage when he wasn't even holding the ledge, he ran up and tried to dtilt me, it missed then I grabbed him.
 

Tekk

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
1,112
Location
Lyon, France
I've still never seen Johnny do the get up attack to edgeguard, which is super underrated imo... if a spacie is using firefox and you can't tell if they'll make it, just refresh your ledge invincibility then do a get up attack. If they don't make it, you still "claim" the ledge for just as much time as you would with a ledge roll. If they did make it, you get to hit them back out with the get up attack.
Exactly what I do most of the time, it's really useful.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
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16,256
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ledge getup attacks dont have invincibility all the way through to the hitbox, so i dont generally like using them against spacies cause of the lingering hitbox. I think its better against characters like marth or falcon/ganon.
 

Kason Birdman

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
2,240
Location
519, Ontario
yeah I generally just ledge hop knee falcon/ganon. I mean comeo on its falcon/ganon you could probably edgeguard them with any move lol/
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Ledgehop dair into reverse knee when someone lands on stage with landing lag is generally the best option that is of course the % is favorable for that. If the % is too high, well just knee lol.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Omg the ledgehop dair->knee **** pisses me off when i get hit by it. So powerful!

And yes, you can ledgehop reverse knee those characters shuffla, but alternatively you can getup attack which covers them not making stage and reverse hits them back off if they were going to make stage. ledgehop knee is probably the better tournament option since it involves less options for the person being edgeguarded.
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
If you hold in...good foxes will just d smash you instead of going for that last shine in the wave shine. =(
Fox's dsmash is incredibly weak, what are you afraid of? haha

but yeah SDI shines away into fastfall. yup

when SDIing the shines in a sequence of waveshines try to plan it so that the last shine won't be close enough to the edge for dsmash to be threatening, but close enough so that you can reach it and fastfall before they get there.

Omg the ledgehop dair->knee **** pisses me off when i get hit by it. So powerful!

And yes, you can ledgehop reverse knee those characters shuffla, but alternatively you can getup attack which covers them not making stage and reverse hits them back off if they were going to make stage. ledgehop knee is probably the better tournament option since it involves less options for the person being edgeguarded.
I dont really like reverse hitting marth like that since it's not guaranteed you'll get to hit him, since Falcon doesn't have an amazing invincible ledgehop bair like spacies do that cover a huge arc. I like the refresh invincibility -> ledgehop stomp -> knee vs marth.

vs Falcon/ganon: stand on stage first. Hit their down B on reaction if they do it. If they up B sorta high and are trying to go for pullback nonsense then just knee their up B, dont mess around with grabbing the edge. Double bair also works at mid percent, it's easier to hit. If they up B low, grab the edge and do the ledgehop stomp -> reverse knee or the reverse knee. Reversing it is critical.

vs. Spacies if they don't shorten: stand onstage, react to high up bs by jumping offstage and uairing them, ftilt to cover sweetspot illusion attempts, grab the edge and knee the firefox if on a stage where they don't have options with up b angles. (A big reason Battlefield is great vs Spacies, imo.) Otherwise... try to figure something out. Ledgehop stomp -> bair the tech firefox seems to work vs a lot of people. I've heard onstage stomp -> edge cancel edgehog isnt too hard to do and it beats the tech -> illusion, but I've never done it myself. Utilt is fine if it's falco or if they're at a high enough percent. At some angles ledgehop bair regrab covers a ton of options.

At mid percents for moves that don't knock him too far offstage, jumping out with a sh knee covers like 80% of falco's options, including the ones he'll do most often. Use sparingly though, as it's too risky if they predict it.

The move im not quite sure about optimal use for is the ledgehop reverse uair thing. It seems to work pretty well but I dont have a ton of experience with it.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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something i see hax do against marth: double jump backwards to avoid the upb hitbox and then edgehog. if marth went on stage reverse knee.
 

Winston

Smash Master
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Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
Right, that's what I mean by refresh invincibility. It should be one of the default option vs Marth (unless Marth is far away enough so that you can DEFINITELY lightshield edgeguard), but for whatever reason it hasn't caught on yet it seems. The advantage is you can cover an extra trajectory (the middle height recovery), not just the low one.

If he comes back in a middle trajectory, refresh, then do invincible ledgehop bair regrab once he gets within range. This'll hit him guaranteed if he's in that area cause it covers airdodging and etc.

So he has to drop lower to avoid that. Once that happens it's too late to lightshield edgehog, but then you can do the hax thing.

Refresh your invincibility in a way so that you avoid the sword trajectory. Basically, first refresh invincibility normally by dropping down, and then once he gets within range so that he could hit your normal refresh with his up B, start doing the high and away ledgehops. One of the two ledgehop methods will be safe vs his possible up B trajectory at all times, so if you just judge this correctly he doesn't really have options besides landing onstage.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
screw u guys

i don't need edgeguarding
Edgeguarding is like
The Lifeblood of this game

This entire game revolves around getting your opponent off the stage asap
So you do need good edgeguarding lolz

Also
Foxes down smash me all the time after a wave shine
I'm not really sure what to do about it
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
Also
Foxes down smash me all the time after a wave shine
I'm not really sure what to do about it
how about

Fox's dsmash is incredibly weak, what are you afraid of? haha

but yeah SDI shines away into fastfall. yup

when SDIing the shines in a sequence of waveshines try to plan it so that the last shine won't be close enough to the edge for dsmash to be threatening, but close enough so that you can reach it and fastfall before they get there.
If you DI the dsmash well and you aren't at like the very edge of the stage when you get hit by it, you should be able to get back with your double jump up through mid-high percents.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
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Boone, NC
Yeah I think it's definitely doable to dsmash before you get there lol

edit;
btw I don't know if anyone's ever told you guys
But if you're being edgeguarded with dsmash by a Peach

Cc the first hit
and survival Di the second

You 99% of the time can get out of it that way.
/random thoughts about dsmash
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
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Mos Eisley
vs. Spacies if they don't shorten: stand onstage, react to high up bs by jumping offstage and uairing them, ftilt to cover sweetspot illusion attempts, grab the edge and knee the firefox if on a stage where they don't have options with up b angles. (A big reason Battlefield is great vs Spacies, imo.) Otherwise... try to figure something out. Ledgehop stomp -> bair the tech firefox seems to work vs a lot of people. I've heard onstage stomp -> edge cancel edgehog isnt too hard to do and it beats the tech -> illusion, but I've never done it myself. Utilt is fine if it's falco or if they're at a high enough percent. At some angles ledgehop bair regrab covers a ton of options.
One thing my friend did once as falcon while I was playing fox was pretty damn pro.

He dair'd my firefox and then immediately short hopped off the stage and knee'd my walljump tech. Many lols were had.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
One thing my friend did once as falcon while I was playing fox was pretty damn pro.

He dair'd my firefox and then immediately short hopped off the stage and knee'd my walljump tech. Many lols were had.
Good stuff
I was just talking to Hax about in your face Foxes

He was saying
Predict nairs->punish
Space so that your grab is right outside the shine range
Because apparently Grab range > Shine Range

That's pretty much what I got from that lol
 

Walt

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Concord, CA
grab range > shine range is what I learned from watching SS play Tang for a while before a tournament. He'd just throw him, stand there, jab missed tech, grab tech in place, and stomp techrolls. He would do it perfectly every time too.

When I do the predict nairs I try to mix up overshoot nairs, retreating nairs, in place nairs, as well as retreating knee.
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
If you for see a nair coming...why not just space a stomp such that they land right under your stomp? do like a retreating stomp or something...sets up for a knee.

One thing my friend did once as falcon while I was playing fox was pretty damn pro.

He dair'd my firefox and then immediately short hopped off the stage and knee'd my walljump tech. Many lols were had.
I bet it was sauc3 who did this.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
I interpreted jpobs' post to mean that he jumped off IMMEDIATELY and kneed jpobs while he was still in the walljump, as opposed to there where darkrain waited for the up B to start
same

Does anyone do what Darkrain does and run off->bair?
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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Jun 26, 2007
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Mos Eisley
Old trick JPOBS, Darkrain's been doin that for years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd6t2H6zgW8#t=1m16s
haha word. DR too good.

I interpreted jpobs' post to mean that he jumped off IMMEDIATELY and kneed jpobs while he was still in the walljump, as opposed to there where darkrain waited for the up B to start
Yea thats what I meant. He just guessed that I would walljump tech it then knee'd me before my firefox could start proper
 
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