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Thoughtful Techchasing

Pr0jecT

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
509
Location
SWFL/NY
So fellow falcons. I've found myself running into a lot of newer players and I always hear the same phrase "I would be alot better if I could techchase, I suck at techchasing"
I remember when I used to say that all the time. Techchasing is undeniably the most important skill to have as a high level player and as a falcon main.
What i've found is that most of people's frustration with tech chasing comes from the fact they are not tech chasing with thought. People find you either need an incredible amount of reactionary skill or you have to read minds. However, there is some prediction and a timely reaction to what they are doing is part of the game.

I use a process of elimination when I tech chase. Based on the character they are using, and any other information I may know about the player. IE: I play Smashmac's Fox alot, I know his tricks and what he's capable of with that character.
% and the opponents location on the stage should be taken into consideration as well. A Player dthrowed at a low % near the ledge is more likely to tech in a position near the ledge rather then in the middle of the stage. Vice versa with a high % opponent.

Say you are playing against a fox; you have the person grabbed and you plan on downthrowing. His OPTIONS as of this first grab are the following 8 Choices.

Getup, getupattack, donothing, rollleft, rollright, techinplace, techaway and techtwords 5/8 choices put him in “missed tech” position compared to 3 which put him in a safezone-esq position.
Getup/attack/rollleft/rollright/do nothing AND teching in place all land the opponent in a punishable situation at the same place and brief period of time. This is your window of opportunity and when looking for grabs and hits inbetween techchasing. It should be within the timeframe of the opponent landing and not teching or when he becomes vulnerable (he should be hit before he has the ability to getup or roll or react)

Most players will TECH/TECH ROLL their first dthrow since they see it coming.
>>Assume the player does this and techs in place
You run up and with pro mindgames bait his spot dodge and regrab him.
Now with this 2nd throw. His 8 choices aren't really 8. The chances of him teching in place again are much smaller, pretty nil. 7/8 Options left, and DoingNothing, Roll left/Right, Getupattack, and just Gettingup normally all land you in the same position as a Tech in place would, your opponent will most likely think you’ll be looking for that again. 6/8 of his choices have been eliminated. This means that the likeliness he messes up the tech or that he decides to try the same thing twice is incredibly small. You should be focused on if he will tech twords you or away from you. His % and stage positioning should be an indicator although pure reaction is sometimes enough.

This now manipulates your opponent's tech options into Tech away and Tech Twords. Yes of course he can do that same tech in place again and all this theoretical situation stuff can be null. However, THOUGHTFUL techchasing is about maximizing your chances of finding the most probable window of opportunity which is what I’m attempting to demonstrate.
~~~~~~~~~~
You've now forced him into going twords the ledge or twords the stage. If hes at a lower % i'd imagine he would roll twords the ledge assuming he doesnt miss the tech.
>>>Assume he does do that, techs away twords the ledge
You're super duper pro falcon tech chasing skills just landed you Another free grab OR a nice shorthop knee to the face, and since he's now teching AWAY its likely his DI may work against him as well.
Another important aspect of techchasing is what moves you use when. Understanding how a late Uair on a low % missed teched fox wont send them far and give you another grab from the reset. Or that knowing a tech roll behind you is coming and short hop slow stomp is the best way to pop up that mid % falco into a knee is key.

Experience and looking for patterns is the only real way to improve your ability to techchase. You eventually accumulate the musclememory/timing/seen enough of the same thing at the same time to manipulate opponents into your attacks.

You learn things from repeated situations; If I punish a tech with a stomp or raptor boost and they aren’t too high up I’ll gentleman them and force what usually turns out to be a missed tech into knee.

So does this make sense to anyone? I've explained this to a couple people and they said it helped so I figured I share my thoughts on techchasing and what to look for. I'll probably try to get some footage and compile a short video with better analysis.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
1) You really only have 4 options
No tech, tech in place, rolls

The others that come from no tech shouldn't be counted imo, your reaction time isn't THAT bad
What you should do is put it into two tiers:

Did he tech?

yes........................................................................ no
roll away, towards.............................................knee him
or stand in place?...........................................can't knee? did he:
........................................................get up attack.........roll away........roll towards


etc


Also, as far as "He's less likely to do the same thing twice" that is totally dependent on player
Some people love to tech in place forever and ever and ever

Basically as far as tech chasing I tell people to as Hax says, follow them with grabs only until you learn their patterns, then do other stuff
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
^0Room is right.

Every player is different. When you first play someone you've never played before, use tech-chase regrabs to get a feel of how they like to tech. Again it's just a FEEL.

Only the regrabs are GUARANTEED because you can do it on reaction. once you stop regrabbing, you are GUESSING (or reading) where they are going to tech or not tech. I'm not really sure if that still counts as tech-chasing when you are predicting where they're going as the term "tech-chasing" implies that you are able to chase where they're teching on reaction which is not what you're doing when you try to predict a tech roll in toward the stage with a stomp to punish...

I don't care if you are houdini. If you're not tech-chase regrabbing, you are playing a game of odds and there's always a chance you'll be wrong. Which is why being able to "read" your opponent is so important and why developing good DEFENSIVE skills to get rid of bad teching habits is very important to prevent yourself from being read by your opponent too.

This not only goes for teching but also for DI choices, and almost every option select in the game can be "read" if you have predictable habits.

Being able to feel out and understand your opponent is very important to be successful with falcon and it's also very difficult to learn. You can really only master it through experience and playing a myraid of players :S. I still have lots of difficulty with this.
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
They really have 2 options, and the options change based on how you choose to cover them and how good you are ...

You can choose to react to tech in place with regrab if you have the reflexes (baiting spotdodges works almost as well on most Foxes) you can also cover rolls with regrab, meaning the only option to get out is teching to the edge and sliding off on your next throw or missing a tech, which is still fairly skewed in your favor if you're patient

If you just choose to guess when they tech in place, they still have only 2 options, but whenever you guess wrong and they tech in place they get out for free
You also have to be able to react to whether or not they teched in place or missed it if you're doing something like knee / stomp but you can usually time it to cover both
Or you can just upsmash tech in place like Thumbs I suppose :awesome:

Raptor boost is another way of reducing it down to two options, but this time you cover 3/4 of their options while leaving one techroll uncovered (with the possibility of retaliation because side-b is mad laggy and you'll probably be put in a pressure situation if you're techchasing Fox and miss)

Late Uair basically covers everything if you're fast at timing the Uair, but I'm not sure if it's possible to time it to cover tech in place while having time to react to rolls with regrab, so that's also basically narrowing it down to 2

Also make sure to remember when they just like ... don't have options
The crappy ledge on the right side of the mountain transformation is one, Winston and I are probably the only ones who regularly remember this but once Hax guessed the tech into the stage vs Swift when he Dthrew him onto the crappy ledge and it just looked ******** because I think Swift actually did the tech in and obviously didn't move
Top of the mountain is another because of the slope, stomp basically covers everything

Platforms are another time where their options are fairly limited, you can sometimes follow their DI with good spacing and timing on stomp attempts when they fall onto a platform
Also waveland onto the platform covers both their techrolls and often gets you a dropzone so mix that in also

Also remember when you Dthrow them near a ledge that not having an away option to cover is mad good (just don't freeze when they choose the absolute worst option and sit there going what in the world are they doing) - Hax runs to the very edge and side-b's into the stage to cover this situation a lot of the time, Thumbs guesses the tech back and just pressures them with their back to the ledge or baits the getup / getup attack (something I learned, it's pretty good)
Just make sure to note if they're good at sliding off, because I don't think you can cover the slide off with anything (maybe attempt a Dtilt but yeah it's basically the ****, remember when you're getting techchased because all it takes is some thinking about how to DI and you're out for free)

Basically in every situation I can think of there is some way to cover their options to turn it into a coin flip at worst, almost guaranteed at best (or they're just super boned on random places on Stadium)
Just depends on a) your execution/reflexes and b) ability to recognize how to cover them in such a way as to cover the most options possible
Being able to get them solely relies on you either guessing right or having the read ... stuff I mentioned above are just ways for you to narrow down the choices from which to guess from
 

Pr0jecT

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
509
Location
SWFL/NY
Im simply only trying to explain that techchasing in itself is manipulative on the mindgames end. I'd like to believe I play decently strong players and have solid techchasing capabilities. It doesnt hurt to look at things abstractly.

People who get punished for something the first time are less likely to do it again the very next second time. Abuse this idea is all im trying to prove.

Of course theres always exceptions; Marth Vs Falcon and Falcon is dthrowed twords the ledge vs marth. 90% of falcons will techroll twords the center of the stage - over and over. This isn't because hes stupid or trying to mindgame marth- its simply because thats his only REAL best option to getting out of the situation ALIVE.

You mentioned you only have 2 options. I disagree- Sure you can break it down into DO NOTHING or TECH AND GET AWAY. Theres many situations where a tech chase can spring up or end when you didnt think it would. I think people overlook how many things they can do from a helpless position to screw someone up. The game is too situational to just give people option A and option B

How about I'm playing a mid % spacie. I uthrow him and he DI's away. He has strong enough DI that hes out of reach of a short hop stomp however, misses his tech- his options have now increased since Im unable to punish in that original window of opportunity I mentioned before. So a player must find a NEW way to mind game him to finish the tech chase.

Running up and fullhopping>fastfalling and then DOUBLE jumping again in mid air BAITs out his getup attack and leaves him open to that Stomp>Knee we've all been waiting to end his stock with.

You're all more then welcome to disagree with me on this but I think tech chasing isn't just regrabs and getting lucky predictions. I really do feel like i'm able to capitalize on my chases not by prediction but by mental manipulation of where they have teched before as well as any previous patterns they may have shown (IE: If they get dthrowed from a platform, they tech backwards once they hit stage floor)

I guess what I'm really trying to say is; Sure theres not always a guarantee in tech chases but theres definitely a mindgaming portion of the equation that may help give the most obvious choice of where they are going to land/do. Im simply trying to bring up since most people have trouble looking at things abstractly
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
You realize that shorthop stomp covers like half of Battlefield right :awesome:
No seriously Falcon's short hop range is ******** if you don't fastfall / fastfall late, you're never going to be "out of range"

I'm saying the majority of the time you can group covering tech options in such a way that you can cover one group purely based on reaction and one group off a guess that covers their remaining options

DI away on any throw still puts them in a position where if you guess they're going to techroll, they're going to get regrabbed if you react properly (very very doable)

Smart Foxes should know to react to real attacks instead of baits because none of Falcon's aerials come out fast enough and hit grounded people

I'm not saying that having a solid grasp of the mental aspect of techchasing isn't important and I hope I didn't come across as saying that ... in fact I think it's way more important than the stuff I listed, but I don't think there's a good way to teach people the thought process behind how to guess because I suspect most of the really good players do it based on intuition

I think you CAN however teach people how recognize various ways to maximize their option coverage so that they can guess broader (I'm gonna cover tech rolls as opposed to I'm gonna cover his tech away)

Experience and looking for patterns is the only real way to improve your ability to techchase.
That's basically the only thing you needed to say, as far as I can tell the rest is a big example of how a certain player might think, which I don't think is super useful but I'm not really reading it properly right now because I have to skedaddle soon haha
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Well I was just quoting Project's first post <_<

Basically you can work on the stuff I was talking about to make the guessing game more in your favor, but in the end you still have to guess ... and I'm bad at that guessing game so if the better techchasers out there can put their decision making clearly into a step by step process or something that's about as much I can say other than "learn how to spot patterns better"
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
<_________<
So that's the me of one year and 2 months ago ... probably still as bad as the current me ~_~
 

0Room

Smash Lord
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Aug 21, 2008
Messages
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Boone, NC
It's just funny to see where we started/how far we've come
Like I said I've been going through all the old posts of that thread
 

erbanez

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
132
Location
Connecticut
I think feeling it is the only way to go. Actually, once in a while I pretend I was playing the other character and ask. What would I do if it were me? And in those moments, I make an appropriate guess and hope I'm right.

:phone:
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
when going for tech-chase regrab. Do you guys prefer wavedashing, fox-troting, or dash dancing with falcon?

I always see hax use wd but in s2j's respponse to wenbo's post in 0room's link, he recommended this weird dash dancing thing with one initial dash and a single dd.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
I always see hax use wd but in s2j's respponse to wenbo's post in 0room's link
LOL
That was frustrating to follow

I personally just wait
I like dashing forward but if they don't tech that's a bad option :c
Though technically you have enough time to dair

you just have to recognize that they didn't tech IMMEDIATELY
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
When you're trying to regrab you want to have your dash end at their tech in place spot so you can JC grab on reaction if you're fast, foxtrot to get the tech away, and simply run back to get the dash back

I mean, it's pretty feasible to cover all their tech options except miss tech (Sheiks can do it with grab so Falcon should also)

If they don't tech then just run around until they get scared and do something
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
sometimes it's hard to have your opponent's tech in place option land right infront of you with a tech if they do no di on the throw or something and you can over shoot with a dash (or at least based on my experience)

so i use wd sometimes :S....to position myself infront of where they'd land and then foxtrot in the direction if they tech roll and just grab if they tech in place :S.

It's easy to miss the tech in place grab if you're slow on reaction

it isn't that a huge issue for me anymore i some how manage to get the techs now and i do a lot less regrabs now. (maybe 2-3 at most now).

I also have been trying the "reverse prediction" thing (as i like to call it).

Basically you keep kneeing/stomping the tech in place option to condition your opponent from not teching/teching in place and then you punish their tech rolls =D
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
grabbing a tech in place from a fox trot is pretty tough lol i think my success rate for that is 10%

i usually just go for gut instinct based on what opponents do

and 99% of opponents in certain spots will ALWAYS do the same thing
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
Yeah I try to

It is possible to dash forward ->dair on reaction

But
I mean
That reaction time has to be perfect
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
i prefer dash forward knee because good opponents planning on laming it up will DI d-throw hella far away for a no tech and make it very tough to land even a dash--> knee, so if u want to cover missed techs in those spots with stomp they either have to DI like a noob or you need to do a running stomp right away dash forward--> stomp seems too slow/ not enuf horizontal range


make sure you can land dash forward --> knees on missed techs on good opponents pretty essential IMO. seems pretty basic but you'll notice your miss rate will go up on correct missed tech reads on better opponents
 
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