The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

Maharba the Mystic · Sep 27, 2011

how about we just give it a try and see how it goes? i don't really care if he remains legal, just means ill still have put in ridiculous amounts of tedious work on the same character. however, i do wanna see how different the tier list woud look without MK for like a solid 6 months minimum? i mean guys, don't you wanna see how many high tiers and mid tiers and low tiers move around with MK out of the picture? i mean contrary to what some may think, that tier list would be radically differant. i mean think about it, it would be cool to have the statistics for this on a national level. then if they bring him back afterwords, that's cool too. i mean there's always a boss character in every fighting game, in brawl it's MK, and im okay with having to face that.

Zankoku · Sep 27, 2011

"Transcendant properties in his moves"? Is that really an argument?

Supreme Dirt · Sep 27, 2011

R e d X said:
And if the ban goes through I agree I think D3 will make a larger appearance, and ICs to some degree. Don't realy know bout Oli lol.

lol because MK is the only thing holding Dedede down. Not like Falco, Diddy, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pikachu, and Zero Suit Samus exist. And that's just high/top.

Just lol, I keep seeing this brought up. Just shows people's ignorance about Dedede.

Maharba the Mystic · Sep 27, 2011

you forgot too mention pit :troll:

John12346 · Sep 27, 2011

Y'know, this is just an observation, but I notice that a lot of people are pro-ban predominantly for generally only one or two of the many different reasons pro-ban has to provide. I should consider keeping tabs on what everyone has to say, and see how many reasons are provided.

Also, transcendent priority is not a good reason to call for a ban lol. Things like that, or MK's long range, huge recovery, and all of the other crazy things he has to offer, all must be attributed to one reason, worded something like "MK has abilities that far eclipse what the rest of the cast is capable of." Listing out each individual move MK has as many different reasons is just stupid and unfair LMAO

Steam · Sep 27, 2011

popsofctown said:
If you want MK to have a better chance of being banned, please stop posting.

you should try to understand the context of my posts. I was explaining how banning MK IMO wouldn't just suck the hype out of Apex because to many people it's not that hype to begin with.

B.A.M. · Sep 27, 2011

Supermodel From Paris said:
stopped here

good you should stop there. Reading must be hard. LOL I STOPPED HEREEE DIDIDNTZ READS ALSDKLAJLS.

@Mekos: I agree completely. We need to start taking a note from the more solid FG communities around us. I think this overcentralization argument is ridiculous. I also believe that pros should have some weight in this matter. I think its absurd that the only influence we are getting from the community is from people who dont even play this game on a competitive level. THAT is absurd. Yet people are content for letting that stand for the community's opinion. That is absurd. Im sure that many people arguing in here right now would concur.

@Red X: Im sure you would be content with RC deciding for you as you yourself claim you dont know much about the game. The problem is that there are people who equal or surpass their knowledge of the game that are getting their input belittled by an idiotic poll and lack of pro representation in RC Unity Ruleset decisions.

R e d X · Sep 27, 2011

popsofctown said:
I think you're confusing "best character" with "dominant strategy". Meta Knight is a strategy that dominates every other strategy, so rational players (there aren't many, so you don't have to worry) will pick that character to play every time.

There doesn't have to be a dominant strategy, though. For example, Falco is good, but he loses to Pikachu. Pikachu is good, but he loses to Marth. Marth is good, but he loses to D3. D3 is good, but he loses to Falco. Falco is good, but he loses to Pikach... It's a circle. This is based on the BBR matchup chart. So people who want to win can pick Falco, or Pikachu, or Marth, or D3 and those are all right answers. It's not valid to say "people trying to win will always try to pick the best character." It's valid to say "people trying to win will always pick the dominant strategy if one is available", and current thinking suggests no dominant strategy will be available with MK removed from the game.

This is one of the best arguments I've heard in a long time. Nicely phrased.

I still stand by my statement about the differing effects on mid and high tier levels of play and doing your homework on the MU, but this is definitely a good point. He SHOULD have a weakness in strategy.

Jane · Sep 27, 2011

B.A.M. said:
I think its absurd that the only influence we are getting from the community is from people who dont even play this game on a competitive level. THAT is absurd. Yet people are content for letting that stand for the community's opinion.

PLENTY of high level players, and respected players voted.

Supreme Dirt · Sep 27, 2011

Maharba the Mystic said:
you forgot too mention pit

Feel free to think you beat us, that's fine.

Alternatively: I was talking about characters that are actually good.

fkacyan · Sep 27, 2011

FoxFireMage said:
But, no bad matchups, transcendant properties in his moves, complete adaptability to the point of face rolling, are good reasons

He's extremely good but not even close to unbeatable. I also take great issue with "no bad matchups" because we have yet to evaluate MUs on a stage-by-stage basis and the overall MU changes based on where you play.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 27, 2011

Thiocyanide said:
He's extremely good but not even close to unbeatable. I also take great issue with "no bad matchups" because we have yet to evaluate MUs on a stage-by-stage basis and the overall MU changes based on where you play.

...

You want a community that can't really agree on even general MU ratios, to go through each one stage by stage? And come to a real agreement on each one, not just "K, I'm tired of this, let's just say a random number"

Keep dreaming.

MK has no MUs where he does not have the overall advantage in the entire set.

Supreme Dirt · Sep 27, 2011

Thiocyanide said:
He's extremely good but not even close to unbeatable. I also take great issue with "no bad matchups" because we have yet to evaluate MUs on a stage-by-stage basis and the overall MU changes based on where you play.

During the course of the set it will end up bad, as in general...

MK beats you on the starter.
He's roughly even to slight advantage for you on your CP.
He generally ***** you hard on his CP.

The only top tiers I'd say this isn't really the case for is Pikachu (since MK can't really **** Pika with his CP, so long as the Pika bans Brinstar) and... actually I think that's about it. I really can't think of anyone else. Icies and Diddy might be able to make it even game 1 if the MK is bad at striking, but still get ***** on MK's CP.

FoxFireMage · Sep 27, 2011

Thiocyanide said:
He's extremely good but not even close to unbeatable. I also take great issue with "no bad matchups" because we have yet to evaluate MUs on a stage-by-stage basis and the overall MU changes based on where you play.

Out of Unity stages, he pretty much goes even or kills

fkacyan · Sep 27, 2011

MK has no MUs where he does not have the overall advantage in the entire set.

Given our current, terrible CP system, yes, this is likely the case, but there is no objective data to prove it.

[edit]

MK beats you on the starter.
He's roughly even to slight advantage for you on your CP.
He generally ***** you hard on his CP.

If he loses anywhere I would actually argue that it's on the starter to certain characters, but this isn't really a discussion for this thread.

Omni · Sep 27, 2011

Final Destination.
Smashville.
Battlefield.

Only.

fkacyan · Sep 27, 2011

Omni said:
Final Destination.
Smashville.
Battlefield.

Only.

I was thinking BF moreso than the other two, but yes, MK has a great weakness in stage control when he can't abuse gimmicks to land simple kills or safe hits.

Omni · Sep 27, 2011

Nah, I meant... those should be the only stages on the stage roster.

That Japanese mentality.

Seriously, tho', I still have no idea why we have so many ridiculous stages on.

Zankoku · Sep 27, 2011

Just to be clear, Japan plays on those stages only because that's how they had it in the beginning, and they never really felt like adding any more stages.

fkacyan · Sep 27, 2011

Omni said:
Nah, I meant... those should be the only stages on the stage roster.

That Japanese mentality.

Seriously, tho', I still have no idea why we have so many ridiculous stages on.

lmao

It increases game depth, in theory. In practice I'm not sure it actually does, though.

Omni · Sep 27, 2011

[ЯVR] aisight said:
Just to be clear, Japan plays on those stages only because that's how they had it in the beginning, and they never really felt like adding any more stages.

That's because they know what's up.

Thiocyanide said:
lmao

It increases game depth, in theory. In practice I'm not sure it actually does, though.

I mean...

Seriously, people complain about how MK can just counterpick anyone to <insert ******** stage here> and get a free win. Get rid of silly stages. "Free win" removed. Instead, people would rather remove a character as opposed to remove stages forgetting that removing stages was always the first step to balance when the game came out.

If people can't handle MK on SV/FD/BF then, IMO, no johns.

Oh, and also take out Dave's Stupid Rule.

Zankoku · Sep 27, 2011

Omni said:
That's because they know what's up.

Oh, okay. Let's only do brackets without pools and stop having entry fees for our tournaments, then. Clearly they know what's up.

Supreme Dirt · Sep 27, 2011

I only support two kinds of stagelists, japan's SV/BF/FD with 3 CPs, and super-liberal stagelists.

Though I do find issue with Japan's stagelist having YI:B legal, but I'm sure most people know how much I despise that stage.

Omni · Sep 27, 2011

Yu p!

Zankoku · Sep 27, 2011

YI:B is fine. I'm surprised people hate stages that have Shy Guys. How can anyone hate Shy Guys?

Supreme Dirt · Sep 27, 2011

Actually, can we discuss why YI:B is still legal? Could I get someone actually on the BRC to explain it to me? Because I fail to see why Picto gets the boot for excessive randomness and YI:B does not.

infiniteV115 · Sep 27, 2011

This may have been stated by other people already and the RC may already be taking it into consideration, but I'll say it anyway.

After Apex, MK should definitely be banned. Just temporarily though, I'm thinking 6-12 months.
I'm not pro-ban (I'm pretty much undecided on the MK ban issue since I'm not very experienced), but on these boards are ALWAYS complaining about things they hear that are just "theorycraft" and haven't been seen in practice, so having a test-period, so to speak, should be very useful in making any decisions.

So ideally, it would go like this.
After Apex 2012, RC announces period during which MK is banned (eg March 1st-September 30th, MK is temporarily taken out of the Unity Ruleset)
Time is spent having discussion, analysing data from test period, etc (eg Oct 1st-Dec 31st 2012, during this period MK is legal again in the Unity Ruleset)
Another poll is conducted if need be
Decision made.

Of course, at "decision made", that could always change. They could choose to ban MK at that point and then legalize him again a while later if things change, or vice versa.

fkacyan · Sep 27, 2011

Supreme Dirt said:
Actually, can we discuss why YI:B is still legal? Could I get someone actually on the BRC to explain it to me? Because I fail to see why Picto gets the boot for excessive randomness and YI:B does not.

I've brought this up several times. It seems people don't mind the platforms / shyguys despite the fact that, at least with the platforms, they are relatively preictable randomness that can drastically alter matches.

@Ankoku: Pools are stupid and time consuming unless you have a truly massive number of people. SiiS6 should not have had pools, for example.

Zankoku · Sep 27, 2011

69 players isn't a lot of people? Are we talking 129+, then? 'Cause any number lower than 129 can be fit into the same size bracket as 69.

Supreme Dirt · Sep 27, 2011

Also people completely ignore that it ****s with Ness and Lucas.

Doesn't matter that they're low on the tier list.

We shouldn't have stages that completely randomly and completely unnannouncedly **** with any character in the game, whether it be MK or Ganondorf, or anyone in between.

Zankoku · Sep 27, 2011

I guess that leaves FD and Battlefield, then.

fkacyan · Sep 27, 2011

[ЯVR] aisight said:
69 players isn't a lot of people? Are we talking 129+, then? 'Cause any number lower than 129 can be fit into the same size bracket as 69.

lmao, me and Diem were actually talking about how terribly those pools were set up last night. If you want to run pools w/ 69 people, you don't advance the majority of each pool (iirc, 12 pools, top 4 advance).

Supreme Dirt · Sep 27, 2011

Um

Japanese stagelist has LC and PS1.

Both have fully announced random elements.

Also I'm not 100% sure on PS1... I know they have 6 but I'm not exactly sure what it is.

Zankoku · Sep 27, 2011

LC and PS1 are counter-pick stages in Japan.

12 pools is a ******** option regardless of the number of players in a tournament.

Cassio · Sep 27, 2011

lol, people need to stop trying to make the poll more valid than it is. In all likelihood its pretty much impossible to get a real poll. Not without spending some decent cash at least. That doesnt mean we cant judge the communities feelings (from asking pros to asking tournament attendees, etc.), but pretty much anything needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

And anyone who's saying no minority is being persecuted isnt doing justice to the issue. Theres a very good reason why we dont make changes on simple majorities of what the community feels. BBR-RC is completely different.

Also Im very curious how, assuming MK is hard banned, the BBR-RC will handle the divide that will inevitably come. Rumors going around that a lot of popular TOs wont be banning him one way or the other.

popsofctown · Sep 27, 2011

I looked into the "rise of mid tier" theory. I looked at the matchup chart. There's only one character mid tier or below who has a good matchup or combination of good matchups that can't be replicated with a higher tier character. That character was Peach. That's pretty much the only character that can claim MK is holding it down.

EDIT: I guess someone whose only -2 was MK would work as well. I checked that out, and that was true of only Toon Link. While he's listed as high tier he does have a terribly low usage rate so he can claim he gets into the game too.

That's making two characters you're already allowed somewhat more useful by making one character completely illegal.

Maybe I should put something in my sig saying I'm proban if I'm going to keep making posts like this..

Budget Player Cadet_ · Sep 27, 2011

Thiocyanide said:
I've brought this up several times. It seems people don't mind the platforms / shyguys despite the fact that, at least with the platforms, they are relatively preictable randomness that can drastically alter matches.

@Ankoku: Pools are stupid and time consuming unless you have a truly massive number of people. SiiS6 should not have had pools, for example.

69 is big enough to warrant pools. Hell, 24 is big enough to warrant pools. Pools is really, really good for low-level players. Instead of just 1-2 you're out in the bracket, they get at least, say, 4-7 sets. That's a huge improvement. Sure, it takes time, but to what extent don't you have time for it? Maybe if your singles event runs over like half a day or something... I was actually pretty miffed when I found out KTAR6 didn't have pools, especially because, well, two shots and you're out. And then you can't play until the tournament is pretty much done because everyone needs the TVs. I was lucky enough to make my way through a pretty easy bracket wing to 33rd, but if I had gotten it harder, then I would've been fairly disappointed.

Thiocyanide said:
lmao, me and Diem were actually talking about how terribly those pools were set up last night. If you want to run pools w/ 69 people, you don't advance the majority of each pool (iirc, 12 pools, top 4 advance).

Now this I agree with. >.> At least knock off half the competitors in pools...

Player-1 · Sep 27, 2011

I try to run pools at all of my events regardless of how many people attend, it's great for people trying to get better. Only time I won't is when there's a lack of setups or time restraints

Omni · Sep 27, 2011

Cassio said:
Also Im very curious how, assuming MK is hard banned, the BBR-RC will handle the divide that will inevitably come. Rumors going around that a lot of popular TOs wont be banning him one way or the other.

aka

The original idea for the RC.

Roughly 50 TO's who won't ban MK.

Steam · Sep 27, 2011

popsofctown said:
I looked into the "rise of mid tier" theory. I looked at the matchup chart. There's only one character mid tier or below who has a good matchup or combination of good matchups that can't be replicated with a higher tier character. That character was Peach. That's pretty much the only character that can claim MK is holding it down.

EDIT: I guess someone whose only -2 was MK would work as well. I checked that out, and that was true of only Toon Link. While he's listed as high tier he does have a terribly low usage rate so he can claim he gets into the game too.

That's making two characters you're already allowed somewhat more useful by making one character completely illegal.

Maybe I should put something in my sig saying I'm proban if I'm going to keep making posts like this..

most people generally agree that MK's matchups on the MU chart are undersold... Just look at D3... and mario... and DK... and plenty of others... even then these are the ratios after every character has discovered and perfected every abusable trait they have on MK while setting those other high tier matchups on the back burner because they don't play against them every other set.

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